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VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

4.40 star(s) 56 Votes

Rehwyn

Active Member
Apr 10, 2024
759
1,201
How many clear assasination attempts should the MC forgive? At some point you actually want to prevent the feeling of "fearing for your life".
How many times can the other cheek be presented?
That depends. How badly does your MC want to try for peace? Because I can't think of a situation where killing Finn in front of her father improves the odds of finding it.

Additionally, perhaps MC might decide that eliminating her as a threat directly is the easier path. But I'd wager it'll create an even bigger target on him from other elves. It certainly won't make them want to kill him less.
 

Pixillin'

Member
Oct 8, 2024
158
137
That depends. How badly does your MC want to try for peace? Because I can't think of a situation where killing Finn in front of her father improves the odds of finding it.

Additionally, perhaps MC might decide that eliminating her as a threat directly is the easier path. But I'd wager it'll create an even bigger target on him from other elves. It certainly won't make them want to kill him less.
Not to make it political but it's a bit like the son of the South Korean president wandering into North Korea and then complaining that they, initially, weren't being very nice to him.
 

Wolfram99

Member
Aug 20, 2023
219
287
sparing Finn when he was under no obligation to do so - was that chance.
He has already spared her once in the forest.
He doesn't know the rules of the elves, by simply defending yourself you are signing a death warrant in their culture, whats to say there is no other funny rule that would give the them a righteous and legal cause to murder MC later on?

The 3rd option could have been to spare Finn but leaving immediately with justification that you dont want to deal with savages.
 

PaxHadrian17

Engaged Member
Sep 8, 2020
2,252
10,933
You're a lost case. Poor Ceo!
I'm going contrarian here.

While I enjoy both coffee and tea, I'm currently drinking cocoa with Baileys since it is 6 degrees outside.

It's not so bad that your coat needs a coat to stay warm, but the Baileys is very nice!

Cheers!! :coffee:

(and yes - no cocoa emoji and I am not diehard enough to find one :))
 

Rehwyn

Active Member
Apr 10, 2024
759
1,201
I'm going contrarian here.

While I enjoy both coffee and tea, I'm currently drinking cocoa with Baileys since it is 6 degrees outside.

It's not so bad that your coat needs a coat to stay warm, but the Baileys is very nice!

Cheers!! :coffee:

(and yes - no cocoa emoji and I am not diehard enough to find one :))
I enjoy coffee, tea, and cocoa. I guess that makes me a polybeveragist.
 
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ename144

Engaged Member
Sep 20, 2018
3,420
14,167
I don't think you understand the situation. MC was going to see them, which on the surface was dumb. These were the people who kidnapped his father. Normally he would have been killed or captured trying to enter - he got Ailil to take him to Medb which solved all of Ailil's problems - pass the buck, let her decide to do with the Templar heir - of course he'd be hunted down if he took off. He's an enemy inside their territory. MC needed a way to shift the narrative - to change their minds about him so he would get a chance to talk to them - sparing Finn when he was under no obligation to do so - was that chance.
With respect, I think it's you who are misunderstanding the situation.

The MC showed up to talk, and was granted safe passage TO Medb by Ailill; Ailill never warned the MC that he could be in mortal danger the instant he finished speaking to Medb, nor did he ask Medb to grant the MC safe passage back to Neverwhere once the audience was over (and that's assuming he couldn't have granted such a thing himself). That's a suspiciously large gap in his protection, but I might be willing to overlook it if the story ended here. Sadly, it does not.

As we all know, the instant Medb turns the MC away, Finnabair says she wants her revenge. Ailill disapproves, but he does nothing to actually protect the MC from what is obviously coming nor does he ask Medb to do so. Given a chance to run rampant, Finnabair challenges the MC to a duel "to the death." Ailill disapproves harder, but Medb's jumps into action... by asking the MC if he accepts the duel. Neither of the adults tell the MC what this duel entails - you know, things like "defending yourself automatically accepts the duel!" - nor do they mention that he could win the duel simply by disarming Finnabair without actually "to the death"-ing her. Might have been useful information to convey, don't you think?

Anyway, the MC explicitly refuses the duel, saying he didn't come here to fight. Finnabair says he's dead either way, since she'll just kill him when tries to walk away. Still no objection from Ailill or Medb. The MC again turns down the duel, telling her he'd rather "deny you the satisfaction of getting what you want." Ailill finally gets off his ass and asks (indirectly) Medb to stop the fight. Medb says it's the MC's choice alone whether to accept or decline a challenge he's already declined twice; as she says, Medb has no interest in protecting "some human." At this point Finnabair draws her sword and slashes at the MC's throat to force the issue, and NOW Medb is all "oh noes, you accepted duel! No take backs! So sad."

I'm sorry, but it's pretty clear Medb was perfectly happy to let Finnabair murder the MC, and Ailill was resigned to it happening. Nor is there much reason for the MC to believe that the duel could end with both parties still alive. From the way Medb was acting before, sparing Finnabair's life would simply lead to her getting back up and trying over and over again until she kills him. Medb had plenty of time to alter the rules of the duel BEFORE it started, and she did nothing. The MC making a big show of sparing Finnabair's life was pure metagaming.

Personally, if this had been a tabletop roleplaying game without predetermined choices, I doubt I'd have even bothered asking Finnabair to yield in that situation. Not to say I'd have killed her, but I'd probably have tried something more drastic, like cutting off her hand or putting the legends of Durendal to the test and trying to slice her sword in half. Fortunately this was a computer game so Finnabair was able to escape the consequences of her actions and go on to worm her way into our hearts. But that doesn't exactly excuse the ungodly callousness of the Alfar leading up to her epiphany.
 
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Rehwyn

Active Member
Apr 10, 2024
759
1,201
With respect, I think it's you who are misunderstanding the situation.

The MC showed up to talk, and was granted safe passage TO Medb by Ailill; Ailill never warned the MC that he could be in mortal danger the instant he finished speaking to Medb, nor did he ask Medb to grant the MC safe passage back to Neverwhere once the audience was over (and that's assuming he couldn't have granted such a thing himself). That's a suspiciously large gap in his protection, but I might be willing to overlook it if the story ended here. Sadly, it does not.

As we all know, the instant Medb turns the MC away, Finnabair says she wants her revenge. Ailill disapproves, but he does nothing to actually protect the MC from what is obviously coming nor does he ask Medb to do so. Given a chance to run rampant, Finnabair challenges the MC to a duel "to the death." Ailill disapproves harder, but Medb's jumps into action... by asking the MC if he accepts the duel. Neither of the adults tell the MC what this duel entails - you know, things like "defending yourself automatically accepts the duel!" - nor do they mention that he could win the duel simply by disarming Finnabair without actually "to the death"-ing her. Might have been useful information to convey, don't you think?

Anyway, the MC explicitly refuses the duel, saying he didn't come here to fight. Finnabair says he's dead either way, since she'll just kill him when tries to walk away. Still no objection from Ailill or Medb. The MC again turns down the duel, telling her he'd rather "deny you the satisfaction of getting what you want." Ailill finally gets off his ass and asks (indirectly) Medb to stop the fight. Medb says it's the MC's choice alone whether to accept or decline a challenge he's already declined twice; as she says, Medb has no interest in protecting "some human." At this point Finnabair draws her sword and slashes at the MC's throat to force the issue, and NOW Medb is all "oh noes, you accepted duel! No take backs! So sad."

I'm sorry, but it's pretty clear Medb was perfectly happy to let Finnabair murder the MC, and Ailill was resigned to it happening. Nor is there much reason for the MC to believe that the duel could end with both parties still alive. From the way Medb was acting before, sparing Finnabair's life would simply lead to her getting back up and trying over and over again until she kills him. Medb had plenty of time to alter the rules of the duel BEFORE it started, and she did nothing. The MC making a big show of sparing Finnabair's life was pure metagaming.

Personally, if this had been a tabletop roleplaying game without predetermined choices, I doubt I'd have even bothered asking Finnabair to yield in that situation. Not to say I'd have killed her, but I'd probably have tried something more drastic, like cutting off her hand or putting the legends of Durendal to the test and trying to slice her sword in half. Fortunately this was a computer game so Finnabair was able to escape the consequences of her actions and go on to worm her way into our hearts. But that doesn't exactly excuse the ungodly callousness of the Alfar leading up to her epiphany.
I have some minor differences in view with how the Alfar treated MC, but it's honestly not worth going into for the point I personally was trying to make.

My main point was specifically how MC's goal was to contact them and try to push for peace. Honestly, after the reception he received, regardless of your interpretation of it, he'd be forgiven for deciding it wasn't feasible or worth the risk. But if he still wants to try for peace and possibly improve his odds of making it back alive, killing Finn here is only going to harm his objective.

What MC needs is an action that causes a rapid paradigm shift in how the Alfar view him. Killing Finn wouldn't do this; it's frankly exactly what Alfar would expect from Templars. Showing mercy when he had apparent cause and right to do otherwise is one such action that has at least a chance of this, which thankfully ends up working out.
 

Pixillin'

Member
Oct 8, 2024
158
137
I have some minor differences in view with how the Alfar treated MC, but it's honestly not worth going into for the point I personally was trying to make.

My main point was specifically how MC's goal was to contact them and try to push for peace. Honestly, after the reception he received, regardless of your interpretation of it, he'd be forgiven for deciding it wasn't feasible or worth the risk. But if he still wants to try for peace and possibly improve his odds of making it back alive, killing Finn here is only going to harm his objective.

What MC needs is an action that causes a rapid paradigm shift in how the Alfar view him. Killing Finn wouldn't do this; it's frankly exactly what Alfar would expect from Templars. Showing mercy when he had apparent cause and right to do otherwise is one such action that has at least a chance of this, which thankfully ends up working out.
On a sort of but not quite related point - does anyone remember at what point Medb notices MC's sword for the first time? Not quite a paradigm shift by itself, her first impulse might be to kill him and take it, but it would definitely cause her to skip a beat and think a little.
 

Wolfram99

Member
Aug 20, 2023
219
287
killing Finn here is only going to harm his objective.
Agree, showing mercy in that situation shows that MC has humanity in him.
Showing mercy when he had apparent cause and right to do otherwise is one such action that has at least a chance of this, which thankfully ends up working out.
Still, being buddy buddy the next day with the people that tried to take your body on a vacation from your head is not the usual response.
Wonder if there will be ala parent style discussion where we can show that the way you were treated is absolutely not okay.
Since Finn barely showed any remorse on how those interactions played out( yes i know she tells nimue she changed her views on killing all humans).

The only good elf so far has been Ailil, he acts adequately even on kill Finn path.
 

Pixillin'

Member
Oct 8, 2024
158
137
Agree, showing mercy in that situation shows that MC has humanity in him.

Still, being buddy buddy the next day with the people that tried to take your body on a vacation from your head is not the usual response.
Wonder if there will be ala parent style discussion where we can show that the way you were treated is absolutely not okay.
Since Finn barely showed any remorse on how those interactions played out( yes i know she tells nimue she changed her views on killing all humans).

The only good elf so far has been Ailil, he acts adequately even on kill Finn path.
It seems extremely arrogant to look at things that way.

Finn has been in training for about 200 years, has been raised to believe that humans and especially Templars are bad, and a threat and IIRC, you're the first one of either that she has met. And she got a chance to show off the skills she's been honing in front of her parents. Then you embarrassed her three times, twice by beating her and once by sparing her and earning a life-debt. You also aren't "buddy buddy" with them the next day. Finn comes to you to train you - something her father ordered her to do and you (MC) if you were being nice said was up to her. (Because it's nice, it helps her save face and because I personally don't want to train in swordsmanship with someone who is only doing it because they were ordered to.) But "buddy buddy" takes awhile. She is still pretty cold when the training starts and slowly warms up as you get to know each other. Medb doesn't come talk to you again until you've been training for awhile and Finn starts saying nice things about you. (I think it might have been after you talk with Finn about Kari and how she suggested you should come. The Alfir like and respect Kari.)

Also, MC was going into hostile territory - to a place where you're unwelcome, uninvited, and unannounced. MC had to go in pretty much expecting to die or be imprisoned. Assuming that a suicide mission wasn't your intention you should be really pleased to still be alive when you reach Medb and looking for a way to stay that way long enough to have a talk. Complaining about them treating you badly is just kinda silly, and implies that they were under some obligation to give you a warm welcome.
 

ename144

Engaged Member
Sep 20, 2018
3,420
14,167
I have some minor differences in view with how the Alfar treated MC, but it's honestly not worth going into for the point I personally was trying to make.

My main point was specifically how MC's goal was to contact them and try to push for peace. Honestly, after the reception he received, regardless of your interpretation of it, he'd be forgiven for deciding it wasn't feasible or worth the risk. But if he still wants to try for peace and possibly improve his odds of making it back alive, killing Finn here is only going to harm his objective.

What MC needs is an action that causes a rapid paradigm shift in how the Alfar view him. Killing Finn wouldn't do this; it's frankly exactly what Alfar would expect from Templars. Showing mercy when he had apparent cause and right to do otherwise is one such action that has at least a chance of this, which thankfully ends up working out.
I get what you're saying, I really do. But the reason I belabor this point so heavily is that, based on everything leading up to that point, I do not believe sparing Finnabair's life would move the needle. Indeed, it has no effect on Finnabair whatsoever, she's eager to keep fighting. It's only Medb inexplicably going from "traditions are sacrosanct!" to "eh, close enough" that forces Finnabair to call off her revenge.

I can't quite buy that. Given just how hostile Medb has been to that point, I think she'd see this as proof the MC was literally too stupid to live. If the MC really felt peace was more important than his life, why did he fight Finnabair at all? Just throw down his sword and say he WILL NOT kill the people he came here to help. That's also something no Templar would ever do, though I doubt it would matter to anyone except maybe Ailill. By the time the MC was fighting, he had no reason to think there was a way to stay alive short of killing Finnabair, and he clearly wanted to stay alive.

Medb's about face was not, IMHO, well handled - unless you think she was just grasping at straws to save her daughter's life, which I doubt was the intent. I guess you could say that the MC disarming Finnabair "proves" the MC had the strength to back up his lofty ideals and thus forced Medb re-evaluate him, but a) the MC had no way of knowing that at the time, and b) the MC hadn't actually won the fight yet. If Medb hadn't intervened, the MC was going to die (unless he eventually bit the bullet and either killed Finnabair or maimed her to the point she literally couldn't fight anymore). In fact, if we want to get technical, killing the mercenary life in Chapter 1 earns a Medb point on the grounds that "leaving a potentially dangerous enemy alive is, again, a stupid move." Finnabair was far more than a potential danger at that point. :cautious:

I wonder if the scene would have worked better if Finnabair wasn't quite as defiant once the MC disarmed her? I'm not saying she should suddenly blubber for her life, but something to give us a sense that she would prefer to live if that was an option might have helped - a scared look that belied her angry words, or a resigned request that the MC get it over with, something like that. It would make Medb's intervention feel more grounded, and Finnabair's about face the next day less incongruous. (It would make Medb's ire if the MC actually kills Finnabair a little less hypocritical, too.) That way it's less a case of Medb suddenly rushing to the MC's aid, and more a case of him wearing down Finnabair's resolve on his own. Alternatively, Medb or Ailill could have flat out told the MC that the duel was mandated, but death was not. That would explain why the fight ended, but might be a little too on the nose.

Ah well, spilled milk at this point. What we got works well enough if we're willing to suspend our disbelief a little harder. But I do think we need to suspend our disbelief.
 

Ceolag

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Sep 6, 2020
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ch6_preview_46.png


Hey everyone,
This has been a pretty normal week, given the season and the pre-Christmas madness.

Speaking of Christmas, Patreon introduced a new feature a while ago called "Gifts."
Creators and Patrons can gift Subscriptions to non-Patrons (sadly you can't gift to Patrons with an active sub even if you want to gift a higher tier than they pledged).

I'm going to use that feature to gift 6 months of Chaplain tier to 5 people on Christmas.
The registration and selection of the winners will be held on Discord because I can let a bot do the dirty work and keep slacking myself.

Registration will be open until December, 23rd, 11:59 PM (UTC). After that, the bot will pick 5 random winners.
The only restriction for participating is that you must not have an active subscription to me (and have joined my Discord server, of course).

Otherwise, I made some pretty good progress and I'm nearing the end of the long ass scene I've been working on. I hope to finish it before/around Christmas so I can move on to the next one.
To be fair, it is the longest scene of the whole chapter so once it is done the remaining scenes are more diversified.
And no, that doesn't mean we're close to the end of the chapter ;-)

Next week I'll focus on animations, again, and static renders depending on the progress with the animations.

The numbers for this week:
172 new static renders for a total of 1152
0 new animations (come back next week)
535 new lines in the script file for a total of 3443

Have a nice weekend, guys.

Cheers,
Ceo
 

Pixillin'

Member
Oct 8, 2024
158
137
Kaija looking sexy and hot as hell once again
Doesn’t do it for me - although that may be a neurospicy brain thing. After I dislike someone they stop being attractive or at least it taints their looks for me. The whole hate-fuck concept is just not me.
 

Dessolos

Devoted Member
Jul 25, 2017
11,797
15,199
Doesn’t do it for me - although that may be a neurospicy brain thing. After I dislike someone they stop being attractive or at least it taints their looks for me. The whole hate-fuck concept is just not me.
don't worry I'll take all that hate and show her love :) but I get what you mean when there is a LI I like alot even if their looks don't do it for me they start to become attractive to me.
 
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Adhdclassic

Engaged Member
Mar 10, 2024
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I get what you're saying, I really do. But the reason I belabor this point so heavily is that, based on everything leading up to that point, I do not believe sparing Finnabair's life would move the needle. Indeed, it has no effect on Finnabair whatsoever, she's eager to keep fighting. It's only Medb inexplicably going from "traditions are sacrosanct!" to "eh, close enough" that forces Finnabair to call off her revenge.

I can't quite buy that. Given just how hostile Medb has been to that point, I think she'd see this as proof the MC was literally too stupid to live. If the MC really felt peace was more important than his life, why did he fight Finnabair at all? Just throw down his sword and say he WILL NOT kill the people he came here to help. That's also something no Templar would ever do, though I doubt it would matter to anyone except maybe Ailill. By the time the MC was fighting, he had no reason to think there was a way to stay alive short of killing Finnabair, and he clearly wanted to stay alive.

Medb's about face was not, IMHO, well handled - unless you think she was just grasping at straws to save her daughter's life, which I doubt was the intent. I guess you could say that the MC disarming Finnabair "proves" the MC had the strength to back up his lofty ideals and thus forced Medb re-evaluate him, but a) the MC had no way of knowing that at the time, and b) the MC hadn't actually won the fight yet. If Medb hadn't intervened, the MC was going to die (unless he eventually bit the bullet and either killed Finnabair or maimed her to the point she literally couldn't fight anymore). In fact, if we want to get technical, killing the mercenary life in Chapter 1 earns a Medb point on the grounds that "leaving a potentially dangerous enemy alive is, again, a stupid move." Finnabair was far more than a potential danger at that point. :cautious:

I wonder if the scene would have worked better if Finnabair wasn't quite as defiant once the MC disarmed her? I'm not saying she should suddenly blubber for her life, but something to give us a sense that she would prefer to live if that was an option might have helped - a scared look that belied her angry words, or a resigned request that the MC get it over with, something like that. It would make Medb's intervention feel more grounded, and Finnabair's about face the next day less incongruous. (It would make Medb's ire if the MC actually kills Finnabair a little less hypocritical, too.) That way it's less a case of Medb suddenly rushing to the MC's aid, and more a case of him wearing down Finnabair's resolve on his own. Alternatively, Medb or Ailill could have flat out told the MC that the duel was mandated, but death was not. That would explain why the fight ended, but might be a little too on the nose.

Ah well, spilled milk at this point. What we got works well enough if we're willing to suspend our disbelief a little harder. But I do think we need to suspend our disbelief.
Question can't remember wasn't Finnabair Mebds daughter. Really can't remember.
 
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4.40 star(s) 56 Votes