VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

4.30 star(s) 69 Votes

motseer

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Guys, the overall plot of this story is much simpler than you are making it out to be. The protagonist is an isolated entity in the middle of brewing troubles. There is, obviously, a third party playing upon the shortcomings of the two sides. The potential conflict is being manipulated because of the isolationist policies of the Alfar and the moronic arrogance of the Templars. MC will likely save the day but, maybe, if we are lucky, he'll stand back and watch it all burn to the ground...

I'm going to clarify my point since you seem to be misunderstanding it, I am not talking about literally every elf on the globe having a hivemind and deep understanding of a large scale conspiracy plot to trigger a conflict.
What I specifically outlined and what the MC is getting at is that there's a third party, not elf nor human, that have connections within each faction that are manipulating them. My thesis was that Finn is either that connection or a pawn of whatever connection there is within the elves.

This also means that none of the other elves (besides potential complicits to Finn or whoever pulled the strings behind Finn) knowing anything about a faked death.
I can agree with your third party theory, generally. The Finnibair fake death just doesn't hold water in my opinion. The whole fake funeral thing just doesn't make sense and seems very improbable to pull off. Jus' Sayin':cool:
 

Ciaran8023

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I can agree with your third party theory, generally. The Finnibair fake death just doesn't hold water in my opinion. The whole fake funeral thing just doesn't make sense and seems very improbable to pull off. Jus' Sayin':cool:
But killing off one of the elves that have shown the most aggression and hatred towards the templars is?
As said, conflict between the elves and the templars is the point, why would you remove someone who already harbors that hatred more than most elves, who ALSO is tied to Medb in some way? That's the type of character that you influence and brainwash, because that's a voice that will carry more weight than 95% of other elves if Finn could in turn influence Medb.

Just judging cost vs effect, it doesn't make sense to kill her off either.
 

motseer

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But killing off one of the elves that have shown the most aggression and hatred towards the templars is?
As said, conflict between the elves and the templars is the point, why would you remove someone who already harbors that hatred more than most elves, who ALSO is tied to Medb in some way? That's the type of character that you influence and brainwash, because that's a voice that will carry more weight than 95% of other elves if Finn could in turn influence Medb.

Just judging cost vs effect, it doesn't make sense to kill her off either.
You're assuming that Finnabair's death is part of a conspiracy but, you have no way to know that. It's more likely that a certain dumbass Templar killed her or had her killed and, as it turns out, plays right into the hands of your third party. That's a much easier to follow scenario. We could come up with lots of theories that are more plausible than the grand illusion fake funeral. The fact is we don't really know, yet, what happened to her; only that the Alfar are accusing the Templars. For now...
 

Elduriel

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You're assuming that Finnabair's death is part of a conspiracy but, you have no way to know that. It's more likely that a certain dumbass Templar killed her or had her killed and, as it turns out, plays right into the hands of your third party. That's a much easier to follow scenario. We could come up with lots of theories that are more plausible than the grand illusion fake funeral. The fact is we don't really know, yet, what happened to her; only that the Alfar are accusing the Templars. For now...
I trust the process, I'm sure Ceolag will deliver on this plotline too. Speculation is fun and all, but overall pointless.
 

Dessolos

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But killing off one of the elves that have shown the most aggression and hatred towards the templars is?
As said, conflict between the elves and the templars is the point, why would you remove someone who already harbors that hatred more than most elves, who ALSO is tied to Medb in some way? That's the type of character that you influence and brainwash, because that's a voice that will carry more weight than 95% of other elves if Finn could in turn influence Medb.

Just judging cost vs effect, it doesn't make sense to kill her off either.
I personally thought it made sense. Simply because if there really is a third party they could easily use her death to spark the start of a Templar VS Elven war. Then when it comes to Medb the death of Fin is probably going to cause her to spiral and go through a character change and growth at some point. As well probably more character deveolopment and lore deep dive id imagine. Now if it was just some random templar that killed her yeah I feel her death would have less meaning from a story point of view.
 

Ciaran8023

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You're assuming that Finnabair's death is part of a conspiracy but, you have no way to know that. It's more likely that a certain dumbass Templar killed her or had her killed and, as it turns out, plays right into the hands of your third party. That's a much easier to follow scenario. We could come up with lots of theories that are more plausible than the grand illusion fake funeral. The fact is we don't really know, yet, what happened to her; only that the Alfar are accusing the Templars. For now...
That's true, it could be entirely random, but the timing of it is surprisingly apt and it was apparently by a templar when they have no common grounds they interact with, moreover it would have to be a high ranking templar in order to freely go to places that the templars have deemed off-limits (as the game noted, templars and elves have been zero or very low contact for a long while) at which point it seems unlikely that Linnae wouldn't have heard of it, and while she's also sketchy, she seems to not be interested in the conflict either and have gone against the templars plans before.

EDIT: It would be fucking HILARIOUS if it was Kaiju actually, I just thought about this, given her absolutely zealous loyalty to anything templar-related, she's also one of the few good enough and high ranking enough to have done it. God I hope the dev pulls the trigger on that, would be very cathartic to have her head sent flying.

Again basing things off of risk versus reward, it seems more likely that this is orchestrated somewhere within the elves as why else would someone as culturally and familially important as Finn (given that both Medb and the ice queen attended her funeral) be thrown off to the frontier or into templar territory?
She's good, but it also doesn't make much sense given how much we were told in the chapter about how important both family and young elves are due to lack of reproduction. The fact that she was also acting as basically a diplomatic contact at the time just further cements my suspicion that whatever happened had to do more with the elves than templars.

I personally thought it made sense. Simply because if there really is a third party they could easily use her death to spark the start of a Templar VS Elven war. Then when it comes to Medb the death of Fin is probably going to cause her to spiral and go through a character change and growth at some point. As well probably more character deveolopment and lore deep dive id imagine. Now if it was just some random templar that killed her yeah I feel her death would have less meaning from a story point of view.
But again, she already harbored deep hatred for humans and especially templars, keeping her and using her to influence Medb would be a FAR safer and more logical option as murdering her will basically turn Medb into a coin flip given her interactions with the MC thus far.
Medb could either go full ballistic on humans, or get suspicious about the circumstances, and given how she handled the MC and telling him to leave to avoid becoming a political hostage, she seems far more inclined towards humans right now which would work against the plot of whatever third party is involved, would it not?

Again, something there just doesn't make sense from the point of view of starting a conflict. Yes, this likely will start a conflict but there are WAY too many uncertainties for that conflict to yield good results, unless the conflict is solely a distraction for the third party to move.
 
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Dessolos

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unless the conflict is solely a distraction for the third party to move.
Kind of what I would assume they would want the war for an ulterior motive unknown to us just so they go unnoticed for something much bigger. As I do not think they would care about the outcome of the war or to control the elves but they just wanted them to fight.
 
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Ciaran8023

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Kind of what I would assume they would want the war for an ulterior motive unknown to us just so they go unnoticed for something much bigger. As I do not think they would care about the outcome of the war or to control the elves but they just wanted them to fight.
But that also begs the question as to why the third party wouldn't take the opportunity to wipe out atleast one of the sides. Clearly it's antagonistic towards both sides, and I think literally all sides involved know that the elves can't afford to fight, so this would be the best opportunity for that third party to make sure that one contender is out of the running.

Which again, means that it's difficult to make sense of the current situation, as it seems more logical to set a more deep-rooted and fueled conflict which would have been easier to do with Finn alive.

Honestly at this point I'm just hoping that the antagonist doesn't turn out to be one of those villains with a "LOL JUST SHITS AND GIGS MATE" attitude because this is an interesting conflict and the politics behind it are fairly interesting, given that we're discussing them, so I truly hope that there's some actual thought behind all of this from the devs side.
 

Elduriel

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so I truly hope that there's some actual thought behind all of this from the devs side.
I would be surprised if there wasn't, so far everything has been spot on, looks to me he doesn't make shit up on the spot but has the story plotted out pretty much start to finish. Maybe not down to every little detail but all good AVN devs have the overall details and plot lines planned out for the whole game.
 

Rehwyn

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...no way to trust someone who goes from literal generational hatred to "nah you cool" in a single day. No one does that without without being mentally unstable or with an ulterior motive, especially not within a species that holds grudges for thousands of years.
Minor nitpick, but they spent time together for about six or seven weeks, and it took a good bit of that time for her to start softening on him.

I believe also at some point she mentions that her hatred was based mostly on second-hand information, so with MC being the first actual human she's spent considerable time with, it could have a larger impact than if she'd had extensive interactions with humans already and had hatred born from that.
 
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nitkonikic

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Guys, the overall plot of this story is much simpler than you are making it out to be. The protagonist is an isolated entity in the middle of brewing troubles. There is, obviously, a third party playing upon the shortcomings of the two sides. The potential conflict is being manipulated because of the isolationist policies of the Alfar and the moronic arrogance of the Templars. MC will likely save the day but, maybe, if we are lucky, he'll stand back and watch it all burn to the ground...
Now, now, we're all allowed to sometimes bring silly ideas to the table.
Let the people speculate.

Granted, I completely disagree, but at least it's a discussion :)

P.S. Yep, that's also how I see things, at least realistically. But there will certainly be some twists.

I would be surprised if there wasn't, so far everything has been spot on, looks to me he doesn't make shit up on the spot but has the story plotted out pretty much start to finish. Maybe not down to every little detail but all good AVN devs have the overall details and plot lines planned out for the whole game.
And thank heavens for that. Those who don't usually end up with their stories being complete mess.
 

Ciaran8023

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I would be surprised if there wasn't, so far everything has been spot on, looks to me he doesn't make shit up on the spot but has the story plotted out pretty much start to finish. Maybe not down to every little detail but all good AVN devs have the overall details and plot lines planned out for the whole game.
That's what I'm thinking aswell but you never know. This entire conflict thing is a pretty conflicting point (EDIT: pun wasn't intended, but funny nonetheless) and I'd be a bit sad to see if there's an easy answer to it as it's incredibly nuanced right now. There's also been plenty of VN's that have historically started out strong but tapered off quite fast, so I'm merely hoping that this isn't one of those.

Minor nitpick, but they spent time together for about six or seven weeks, and it took a good bit of that time for her to start softening on him.

I believe also at some point she mentions that her hatred was based mostly on second-hand information, so with MC being the first actual human she's spent considerable time with, it could have a larger impact than if she'd had extensive interactions with humans already and had hatred born from that.
I was more pointing towards the fact that she went from literally willing to kill him on the spot to, the very next day, be more than fine to train him.
That was the biggest alarm bell to me.

Also, the vast majority of hatred is born from second-hand or even third-hand information, or information from YEARS ago (we even have modern conflicts that have their roots set hundreds of years ago) and no matter what way she gained that hatred from, it's very unlikely to uproot someone who's indoctrinated within it.
Most of the older elves remember a lot of the conflicts, they in turn pass on their hatred and all of that information to the younger generation, and when you've basically grown up being taught how to hate.. it tends to not be something that just flips in a day (again, talking about her willingness to train him after just a single day).

Even after 6 - 7 weeks, I still wouldn't be convinced that any of that hatred has lessened, as we are not certain that she wasn't just keeping up an act towards him given that he's a templar and automatically elves cannot trust him, it would make sense if she was keeping a smokescreen and it would also explain why she was fine with hopping in bed with a templar since it wouldn't be the first time in history that someone working with an intent decides to use sex as a tool of persuasion. (EDIT- and yes I know that we know he isn't one, the elves do not have that information however)

Honestly we have equally little information pointing towards her being trustworthy as we have towards her being untrustworthy, as the only narrative we have access to is the MC.. which is also the prime candidate to be lied to by every single entity in the game, that being said however, there's just something that doesn't add up in the explanations we've gotten thus far from a logical standpoint.
 
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lepoutanol

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Need more of medb . Please dev make her and MC have a great love story. You are doing great so far. Just please don't screw it up
 
4.30 star(s) 69 Votes