VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Deleted member 6503042]

I am on the side of the argument that when they became BF/GF, she did it so that she had easier time protecting MC, and nothing more. And only later on in the BF/GF relationship did she catch the love bug, ofc only on Love path that is.

I think that is definitely the case.

It's possible she was lying, but she specifically says that wasn't the case. So I guess on this particular note it may boil down to if you believe that statement to be true.

Dude, you misremember that part. She said it made easier for her. Then added I always liked to spent time with you so it was a win-win for me. Best part of it, she chose this by her own. No order, no nothing.


My theory on that, when you combine it MC's we were drifting apart quote. They were friends, then she noticed MC's feelings and understood if she was not going to be MC's gf, someone else would that means less time for her. She became desperate because her duty was in danger. Think about it, if she stayed only friends with MC, with that much of absence because of her duties, they would fell apart. With MC's regular job, colleagues, friends, gf she would probably can see MC once in a month. So in a desperate attempt to be close to MC, she chose to be a couple, made things easy for her. Then, she fell in love with MC.

 

[Rehwyn]

I think that is definitely the case.


Dude, you misremember that part. She said it made easier for her. Then added I always liked to spent time with you so it was a win-win for me. Best part of it, she chose this by her own. No order, no nothing.


My theory on that, when you combine it MC's we were drifting apart quote. They were friends, then she noticed MC's feelings and understood if she was not going to be MC's gf, someone else would that means less time for her. She became desperate because her duty was in danger. Think about it, if she stayed only friends with MC, with that much of absence because of her duties, they would fell apart. With MC's regular job, colleagues, friends, gf she would probably can see MC once in a month. So in a desperate attempt to be close to MC, she chose to be a couple, made things easy for her. Then, she fell in love with MC.

Your theory directly contradicts Kaija's statement that I quoted right above (here), where she explicitly denies starting a relationship on purpose to make her job easier.

As I said, she could be lying. But then it again boils down to if you believe that statement by her to be true.

 

[nitkonikic]

To directly quote:

So yes, after things developed without her realizing, it was easy for a time to enjoy the best of both worlds, but she explicitly says she didn't start a relationship to make her job easier.

Replay the first conversation at the start of chapter 2.
She says it made her job easier.

So yes, she both says It made the job easier (chapter 2), and no, it wasn't because it made the job easier (chapter 3).







Now, we can go with Kaija lying or adapting her story....
(or the more likely Ceolag just forgot what he wrote in early chapter and it's just a whoops)

Minor edit:
I believe that conversation is identical on both love and non-love path.
But she outright says she entered relationship because it made things easier.

Obviously I'm doing complete guesswork, but Chapter 3 might have been intentionally written to correct that chapter 2 dialogue because this thread, after chapter 2 came out was....not very civil, entirely directed towards Kaija.
Unfortunately, I contributed to that fair bit myself.
Chapter 3 conversation does its best to show Kaija in not-black-black light. Chapter 2 conversation is damning for her character on its own.

 

[Rehwyn]

Replay the first conversation at the start of chapter 2.
She says it made her job easier.

So yes, she both says It made the job easier (chapter 2), and no, it wasn't because it made the job easier (chapter 3).

View attachment 4254068
View attachment 4254071
View attachment 4254074
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View attachment 4254076

Now, we can go with Kaija lying or adapting her story....
(or the more likely Ceolag just forgot what he wrote in early chapter and it's just a whoops)

Minor edit:
I believe that conversation is identical on both love and non-love path.
But she outright says she entered relationship because it made things easier.

Those quotes aren't from her love path. Here's the the two versions of that dialogue:

mc "So you thought it was a good idea to lie to me and pretend you like me?"
kja "What? No."
kja "At that point we had been friends for a few years."
kja "I always enjoyed spending time with you. So I thought it would be easy."
kja "Just spend more time with him. Do friend stuff. No problem."
kja "And they would be happy. Win win situation."

if LPkaija >= 3:

mc "But it didn't work out..."
kja "At first it did."
kja "But the more time we spent together, the more I enjoyed being near you."
kja "First it became a habit. Then more..."
mc "I can't believe this..."
mc "How much of this has been a show?"
kja "In the beginning? Pretty much everything except the original friendship."
kja "At the end? Nothing!"
mc "I'm not sure I believe that."
mom "[mcn], it's not her fault. She pretty much had no choice."

elif True:

mc "So, you used our friendship to achieve your goals. You pleased your supervisors, and you got to enjoy your time while doing so."
mc "Why did you get into a relationship with me? We could've stayed friends, no?"
kja "It made several things easier. Being around you for example."
kja "And the situation somehow developed its own dynamics."
kja "Before I realized what had happened, we were pretty close."
kja "I liked it and, as I said, it made things easier."
mc "How much of this has been a show?"
kja "Pretty much everything except our original friendship."
kja "I do have feelings for you, but not more than just friends."
mc "I'm such an idiot. I should've noticed..."
mom "It's not your fault, [mcn]. They arranged everything and Kaija pretty much had no choice."

So the comment in Chapter 2 about it making things easier only occurs if you have less than 3 Love Points with Kaija.

Obviously I'm doing complete guesswork, but Chapter 3 might have been intentionally written to correct that chapter 2 dialogue because this thread, after chapter 2 came out was....not very civil, entirely directed towards Kaija.
Unfortunately, I contributed to that fair bit myself.

I do agree on this, at least partially. The outright denial in Chapter 3 leaves little ambiguity compared to the comments in Chapter 2 and was probably a very intentional inclusion.

 

[nitkonikic]

Those quotes aren't from her love path. Here's the the two versions of that dialogue:
So the comment about it making things easier only occurs if you have less than 3 Love Points with Kaija.

Fair, so not same on both routes.

But your own comment shows she entered relationship without love initially.



Chapter 3 dialogue is still contradictory to chapter 2 one (0 points run):

 

[Rehwyn]

Your own comment she entered relationship without love initially.

View attachment 4254120

I commented on this earlier:

Here I disagree with your interpretation. I can't check the exact quotes right now, but by "at the beginning" I'd understand that to mean at the beginning of her assignment, not a relationship. Even if they were already friends, she still probably started to spend even more time with MC as a result of this orders, even if just as a friend.

If she started a relationship with only friendship and without attraction or affection, it'd directly contradict other statements she made that she didn't enter into one to make her job easier or under false pretenses.

I'd also wager that 99% of people start relationships with people before it becomes full blown love, so as long as the initial interest was legitimate, I don't know that I'd consider it fake if they started a relationship or became lovers before it had progressed to love. Again, it's a gradual transition from initial attraction to love that often developed alongside the relationship itself.

Edit:

Chapter 3 dialogue is still contradictory to chapter 2 one (0 points run):

View attachment 4254137
View attachment 4254133
View attachment 4254135

I noticed this too. The next few lines are different, but it's honestly a little unusual that these are unchanged.



I guess Ceolag just wanted to really make sure she said she didn't start a relationship on purpose to make things easier.

If I had to guess at the different versions here, on the "no love" path, it might be that she realized things had transitioned into essentially a one-sided relationship and then she was too cowardly to back out. Whereas with at least 5 love points she liked it at least a little, and with at least 8 it had become full blown love.

 

[nitkonikic]

In that case, hope we can agree to disagree

My interpretation is still she entered relationship first, developed feelings later.
As for why, because she's brainwashed by Templars to follow orders.

So despite saying no, and MCs dad saying she doesn't have it, she thought job will be easier, and job is everything.
It is only later, after developing proper feelings, that she started doubting things.

 

[Rehwyn]

In that case, hope we can agree to disagree

My interpretation is still she entered relationship first, developed feelings later.
As for why, because she's brainwashed by Templars to follow orders.

So despite saying no, and MCs dad saying she doesn't have it, she thought job will be easier, and job is everything.
It is only later, after developing proper feelings, that she started doubting things.

To be clear, even I don't think she was in love before starting a relationship. My understanding of the love path is that things progressed without her realizing it to a certain point (maybe they were watching Netflix or something and shared an unexpected kiss), and then she realized there was at least the starting of affection and being a "thing", which she decided to continue until it became full love.

So it sounds like our disagreement is not so much regarding if there was love or not when the relationship started, but whether or not the relationship was started (or continued) for the purpose of making her job easier.

I think we can reasonably disagree here, especially on different paths (and depending on how much you trust her outright denial in Chapter 3).

 

[xapican]

So Kaija and MC never were friends ? and all the "friendship" feelings were single sided from MC towards her?
oh I liked the implication that you can't love a friend, (not romantically)

 

[Rehwyn]

So Kaija and MC never were friends ? and all the "friendship" feelings were single sided from MC towards her?
oh I liked the implication that you can't love a friend, (not romantically)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I don't think anyone here was claiming that.

 

[nitkonikic]

So Kaija and MC never were friends ? and all the "friendship" feelings were single sided from MC towards her?
oh I liked the implication that you can't love a friend, (not romantically)

I think that's one part of their relationship no one should have any reason to doubt.
They were friend, best friends for years.

Difference of opinion is mostly if friendship turned into romantic relationship and love (positive view) , or if duty won over friendship, causing romantic relationship to start for wrong reasons, which later grew into honest love (cynical view).

 

[TrixRabbit]

Finally making decisions and going with two routes - Medb and Finoa. Fiona is definitely hiding something, but I also haven't known her very long so keeping secrets from people you've just met is ok, we'll see how it goes. And Medb might end up being a celibate route but I still like her and want to help the Elves. I really just can't get into Elea and .. Kajia is just out. I mean, even if I could forgive her for all the lies, she would have to leave the Templars for there to be any chance. One of the biggest lies was her going on "business trips" where she easily could have been killed and MC would never know what happened. So there couldn't be any more of that, she'd have to leave the Templars and find a life where she was home every night before I would feel comfortable with it (and that is all IF I could forgive her for everything else), and given that she chose "Duty" over "MC" every day of their relationship, I don't see that happening - I also have no intention of joining the Templars OR having a GF / Wife / whatever who is a Templar. (If that turns out to be Fiona secret - she will be gone in an instant.) Anyway, the other girls I like all look like they'll be side girls and there won't be much to their "path".

 

[TrixRabbit]

So what if MC offered to help / spy for / possibly do some sabotage for the Elves and, as part of that arrangement went to the cartels of Neverwhere and offered them intel on the Templars if they wanted to break the agreement and start moving into the human world again. Have the Elves hold back on an attack until the war between Neverwhere and the Templars was well underway and then when the time comes, assist the Elves with an attack - with MC operating inside the castle. With .... whatever the Hellspawn are doing that would mean that the few hundred Templars would be fighting a war on at least 3 fronts. Could potentially even open a 4th front - by working with investigative journalists, getting them hard evidence of the Templar's existence and then once people believe the Templars exist, convince them that the war / Hellspawn all of it is the Templar's doing - that they caused it all so that the public turns against them as well. That should be enough for the Templars to fall, with minimal casualties for the Elves so that they aren't doomed to extinction.

 

[TrixRabbit]

I think that's one part of their relationship no one should have any reason to doubt.
They were friend, best friends for years.

I dunno ... maybe it's just about Paths but when we met at the park and MC asked if she loved him - in my game - she said she felt something, but she didn't know if it was enough to call it love. That's pretty harsh even for a 'best friend' and also - at some point she got all the training to basically be a ninja now - she got all that training without her "best friend" knowing anything about it. She's apparently been lying and hiding things from him for way longer than they've even been together - even the best friend thing was apparently fake.

 

[nitkonikic]

I dunno ... maybe it's just about Paths but when we met at the park and MC asked if she loved him - in my game - she said she felt something, but she didn't know if it was enough to call it love. That's pretty harsh even for a 'best friend' and also - at some point she got all the training to basically be a ninja now - she got all that training without her "best friend" knowing anything about it. She's apparently been lying and hiding things from him for way longer than they've even been together - even the best friend thing was apparently fake.

Love path - Friendship (for wrong reasons) turns into relationship -> Into love
Non-love path - Friendship (for wrong reasons) turns into relationship -> Into job for her

On non-love path, the moment she entered relationship, is the moment Kaija values her job more than her friendship.
So initial friendship was definitely true. Later, once she's turned into full blown Templar, it's either changed to love or job.
In both cases though, they were friends for years. My opinion? That was genuine and I've never seen proof of otherwise.

Hiding stuff? She's government agent (not really, but you can look at it that way), of course she won't tell him what she's doing.
Nothing wrong with her job being secret. I doubt guys working for CIA tell their friends what they do at their job.

 

[TrixRabbit]

Love path - Friendship (for wrong reasons) turns into relationship -> Into love
Non-love path - Friendship (for wrong reasons) turns into relationship -> Into job for her

On non-love path, the moment she entered relationship, is the moment Kaija values her job more than her friendship.
So initial friendship was definitely true. Later, once she's turned into full blown Templar, it's either changed to love or job.
In both cases though, they were friends for years. My opinion? That was genuine and I've never seen proof of otherwise.

Hiding stuff? She's government agent (not really, but you can look at it that way), of course she won't tell him what she's doing.
Nothing wrong with her job being secret. I doubt guys working for CIA tell their friends what they do at their job.

What I mean is that she somehow managed years and years of training - given her age and skill level, it presumably started when she was a teenager or even a child - without her "best friend" knowing anything about it so they couldn't have been as close as MC thought. At any rate, I'm convinced at this point that their entire relationship - no matter how far back it goes, was a scam and if I played the love path and her attitude was different, I would just think that she was still lying about it and continuing to do her job. I've said it before a few times but the only way I'd be convinced of anything different - on any path - is if she left the Templars to demonstrate that their relationship was really important to her.

 

[nitkonikic]

What I mean is that she somehow managed years and years of training - given her age and skill level, it presumably started when she was a teenager or even a child - without her "best friend" knowing anything about it so they couldn't have been as close as MC thought. At any rate, I'm convinced at this point that their entire relationship - no matter how far back it goes, was a scam and if I played the love path and her attitude was different, I would just think that she was still lying about it and continuing to do her job. I've said it before a few times but the only way I'd be convinced of anything different - on any path - is if she left the Templars to demonstrate that their relationship was really important to her.

To clarify, I am an absolute Kaija hater.
But their initial friendship is not something that I see sketchy in any way.

As for what happens in future, while I'm not doing any true romance path with her (I do have a run with only 1-2 points missing, so anything but kissing or expressing love), I am genuinely interested if, should MC ask, she will leave Templars.

That's kind of ultimate question for me: Is love so genuine she'd drop her job for it?
If the answer is no, well then, not much further to be said.

 

[TrixRabbit]

To clarify, I am an absolute Kaija hater.
But their initial friendship is not something that I see sketchy in any way.

As for what happens in future, while I'm not doing any true romance path with her (I do have a run with only 1-2 points missing, so anything but kissing or expressing love), I am genuinely interested if, should MC ask, she will leave Templars.

That's kind of ultimate question for me: Is love so genuine she'd drop her job for it?
If the answer is no, well then, not much further to be said.

Yeah that would have been my first question in my initial conversation with her about it. It seems like a strange thing to put in later in the game. The first thing I would have said - right after MC's attempted kidnapping is "you have to choose, you can be with me or you can be a Templar but not both." Give her a few days to consider, if she needs it but that's about it. You'd find out right then and there if your relationship was real or had a future.

 

[Dessolos]

Yeah that would have been my first question in my initial conversation with her about it. It seems like a strange thing to put in later in the game. The first thing I would have said - right after MC's attempted kidnapping is "you have to choose, you can be with me or you can be a Templar but not both." Give her a few days to consider, if she needs it but that's about it. You'd find out right then and there if your relationship was real or had a future.

While im not a Kaija hater but lover. I think if I was to give such an ultimatum Templars or me it wouldn't be until after the father is rescued. As I wouldn't want her mind clouded trying to help us get our father back. While the father sucks he is still my father id want to get him back. So I wouldn't want to distract her with something like an ultimatum until after. But lets say more than a week or 2 goes by without any progress id take the chance and tell her after our father is back or killed she has to make a choice. ( I forget the timeline for rescuing the father ) But that is just me.

 

[nitkonikic]

While im not a Kaija hater but lover. I think if I was to give such an ultimatum Templars or me it wouldn't be until after the father is rescued. As I wouldn't want her mind clouded trying to help us get our father back. While the father sucks he is still my father id want to get him back. So I wouldn't want to distract her with something like an ultimatum until after. But lets say more than a week or 2 goes by without any progress id take the chance and tell her after our father is back or killed she has to make a choice. ( I forget the timeline for rescuing the father ) But that is just me.

Agreed, saving father was priority, cunt he is, but it needs to be done.
Ultimatums before that would be petty and childish. There's a serious job on hands, leave arguing for latter.

Always said ideal scenario would have been for MC to save his father, then tell them all to go fuck themselves, and leave.
Kaija can choose, follow him, or stay working.

Wouldn't make for much of a game though

To paraphrase Pitch Meetings: "But why didn't he leave all of them?"
"So the game can happen"
"Oh right, we do want game to happen"