VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Maviarab]

As I said before, removing the lies would leave gaps and probably leave even the honest parts fragile and unstable. It can be difficult to trust again and leave people wondering if anything was real, as you've said. But especially if MC can empathize with Kaija being stuck between a rock and a hard place and can forgive the lying about her job, the remaining "real" parts of the relationship can potentially be saved as trust is restored.

Potentially...I agree....extremely unlikely (as real life stats prove)...but potentially yes. Even less likely in a high stress areas of your life with other things happening around you, as is the case in this story. But potentially...

Now, if they could ignore all this shit going on around them, move to a log cabin the mountains and be at peace with the world and themselves, perhaps even more potential to work it out yes I would agree. That's not happening though.

 

[fishbrain]

I take it .4 was just bugfixes?

 

[Rehwyn]

Potentially...I agree....extremely unlikely (as real life stats prove)...but potentially yes. Even less likely in a high stress areas of your life with other things happening around you, as is the case in this story. But potentially...

Now, if they could ignore all this shit going on around them, move to a log cabin the mountains and be at peace with the world and themselves, perhaps even more potential to work it out yes I would agree. That's not happening though.

Haha, true. A potential inter-realm war on the horizon isn't exactly the ideal circumstances for a couples therapy retreat.

On the other hand, maybe the urgency of their situation accelerates things. The threat of dying tomorrow can sometimes put things in perspective.

Edit: On the Kaija love path, I have to imagine abandoning her mission, ignoring a direct order, and riding a motorcycle into a hail of bullets to save your ass has to be worth at least, I dunno, 10 therapy sessions of trust rebuilding?

 

[Maviarab]

I take it .4 was just bugfixes?

Yes.

 

[TrixRabbit]

As I said before, removing the lies would leave gaps and probably leave even the honest parts fragile and unstable. It can be difficult to trust again and leave people wondering if anything was real, as you've said. But especially if MC can empathize with Kaija being stuck between a rock and a hard place and can forgive the lying about her job, the remaining "real" parts of the relationship can potentially be saved if trust is gradually restored.

Like I said, the only way she could even start on the path of rebuilding trust would have been to immediately cut all ties with the Templars - no more meetings, no more missions, no more “business trips” not a single phone call - ever. Otherwise I have to assume that her first loyalty is still to them and she’s probably still lying about stuff and keeping secrets.

 

[xapican]

I'll have to try more paths later. I haven't done any where Kaija has low love points, which I suspect is what your referring to.

I think, he is refering to the Kaija love path.
Oh another point to consider, and not meant as an attack to anyone, we all talk about Kaijas dishonesty, but not about ours (MC) i want to know how much of the players here did a Kaija Monogamous path, or do the same for the other girls (meaning not getting the Hot scenes spread trough out this chapter)

 

[yossa999]

Potentially...I agree....extremely unlikely (as real life stats prove)...but potentially yes. Even less likely in a high stress areas of your life with other things happening around you, as is the case in this story. But potentially...

Now, if they could ignore all this shit going on around them, move to a log cabin the mountains and be at peace with the world and themselves, perhaps even more potential to work it out yes I would agree. That's not happening though.

Haha, sometimes the worst blackmail/corruption games offer you a choice - don't give in to blackmail, tell the blackmailer to fuck off, especially since in most cases, what the blackmailer threatens you with is complete nonsense. You choose not to give in to blackmail and immediately get a happy ending with a nice house, kids and a dog - and the "game over" across the screen.

So yeah, moving into a cabin in the mountains and sorting things out would be the best choice for those who want to follow Kaija's love path. But then it would probably be a completely different game, I guess. Now we have Mr and Mrs Smith, or True Lies case.

 

[Maviarab]

Like I said, the only way she could even start on the path of rebuilding trust would have been to immediately cut all ties with the Templars - no more meetings, no more missions, no more “business trips” not a single phone call - ever. Otherwise I have to assume that her first loyalty is still to them and she’s probably still lying about stuff and keeping secrets.

Well, again, talking facts and not opinions or personal views, on the 'love path'...when asked directly who/what comes first, she waivers and doesn't give you a straight answer. Sure, she waivers, so unlike the other paths, she does not say the Templars come first...but even on this path, she does not directly say you either.

The only one thing where I will give Kaija any credit is (yes folks, save this post lmao) is that I see her much like many jedi in Star Wars. There is a reason they pick them young...and it has nothing at all to do with training. It's about control...easier to indoctrinate them to their beliefs and system the younger they are. The jedi are really no better than the sith.

Templars, it's telling particularly on the non-Kaija love paths how she vehemently recites the Templar code etc. She is completely brainwashed....only in the love path where she waivers in answering you do I think she actually starts to understand this herself. This is where I feel her redemption will be, she will see the Templars for what they are. Sure, fighting the good fight, keeping hellspawn at bay blah blah...but by indoctrinating their members to their beliefs to enact orders without question.

I think, he is refering to the Kaija love path.
Oh another point to consider, and not meant as an attack to anyone, we all talk about Kaijas dishonesty, but not about ours (MC) i want to know how much of the players here did a Kaija Monogamous path, or do the same for the other girls (meaning not getting the Hot scenes spread trough out this chapter)

On all my paths I am monogamous bar one. I have a number of 'Kaija saves' where I will do different things and yes on one of these saves, I cheated with Finn (as let us be honest, as you are alluding to, even if you take the option in the Templar hall to work together for now, you are effectively still together).

So yes, to sum up, I dislike Kaija, however, she is a fantasticly written character (as all this discourse proves how well she is written). All the other LI I have one save for...I have a save where all i do is flirt and hook up with randoms.....Kaija, I have 5 different saves for, purely because I want to see how things develop regarding the different consequences. So have a Kaija LI save, Kaija LI save where I will side with Elves, Kaija non-commital and slept with Finn and Anaiss (sorry...I love her too much rofl)...

 

[TrixRabbit]

I think, he is refering to the Kaija love path.
Oh another point to consider, and not meant as an attack to anyone, we all talk about Kaijas dishonesty, but not about ours (MC) i want to know how much of the players here did a Kaija Monogamous path, or do the same for the other girls (meaning not getting the Hot scenes spread trough out this chapter)

I ignored everyone until after the events with Kaija & MCs parents - after that, not so much.

 

[TrixRabbit]

Templars, it's telling particularly on the non-Kaija love paths how she vehemently recites the Templar code etc. She is completely brainwashed....only in the love path where she waivers in answering you do I think she actually starts to understand this herself. This is where I feel her redemption will be, she will see the Templars for what they are. Sure, fighting the good fight, keeping hellspawn at bay blah blah...but by indoctrinating their members

At this point, if I can’t fight with the Elves - I’ll pick the Hellspawn over the Templars - go full Annakin Skywalker on them.

 

[Rehwyn]

Templars, it's telling particularly on the non Kaija love paths how she vehemently recites the Templar code etc. She is completely brainwashed....only in the love path where she waivers in answering you do I think she actually starts to understand this. This is where I feel her redemption will be, she will see the Templars for what they are. Sure, fighting the good fight, keeping hellspawn at bay blah blah...but by indoctrinating their members to their beliefs.

Yeah, I think one thing this game does well is create groups that aren't monolithically good or evil. The Templars arguably do some good things, but they also essentially indoctrinate people from when they are children. I think that's another reason I'm okay with forgiving Kaija; I know how hard it can be to break free of that indoctrination. And as you said, on the love path there's early signs that she's gaining some clarity there.

My ideal route I think with Kaija would be a neutral MC that eventually convinces Kaija to join him there, and the two of them get the Templars and Elves to collectively pull their heads out of their ass to address the third-party threat.

 

[TrixRabbit]

If you can't trust someone who rides a motorcycle into a raging gunbattle for you then IMO that's on you.

Her assignment from the beginning was to protect MC. She was just doing her job

 

[Deleted member 6503042]

if a woman lies to me about which shop she went into and whether she bought nail polish or not I'm gone.

A motto to live by tbh.

So the romantic nature of your relationship developed despite her refusal to follow it out of orders, which suggests that the attraction and affection may be genuine.

I don't think you can say this. On not love path, she still choose to be gf of MC. She clearly had a change of heart there. It was easier for her, so she chose that. If either way she choose that, then you can't assume it's genuine.

 

[Rehwyn]

Her assignment from the beginning was to protect MC. She was just doing her job

She literally gets in trouble for doing this because she abandons her currently assigned mission to do it.

 

[xapican]

At this point, if I can’t fight with the Elves - I’ll pick the Hellspawn over the Templars - go full Annakin Skywalker on them.

Cool then you have more in comon with Kaija as you like to have.
(not meant as an attack, just to underline my following point please don't take it personal)
Kaija ,Is driven by revenge, and as the MC is in search of the truth, of what happend to her parents.
And she only trust, those who gave her, solance, and support (here it is what Maviarab said above about brainwashing) the corrupted Knight Templar Order, she is from childhood, in touch with the Great grandmaster and his Family, and started her Training at Teenage, with the help of MC Father, she is also related to the Order trough her parents and Grandparents, all facts you can read them in doesn't matter what path you are.

 

[Maviarab]

If you can't trust someone who rides a motorcycle into a raging gunbattle for you then IMO that's on you.

Her assignment from the beginning was to protect MC. She was just doing her job

Maybe if our bodyguard wasn't in an entirely different realm then that course of action would not have been required

She literally gets in trouble for doing this because she abandons her currently assigned mission to do it.

Only on a certain path. On others she is told to by Linnae and Linnae covers her ass with the council to avoid her getting into trouble.

This is why (not having a go at you) in a heavy story based game, you should play all paths so you know when you are stating facts, or just saying something from one path perspective. On the non-love path, no, Kaija very much does not disobey orders at all, she is told to intercept by Linnae, she does not do it of her own volition.

 

[motseer]

Maybe if our bodyguard wasn't in an entirely different realm then that course of action would not have been required

Only on a certain path. On others she is told to by Linnae and Linnae covers her ass with the council to avoid her getting into trouble.

This is why (not having a go at you) in a heavy story based game, you should play all paths so you know when you are stating facts, or just saying something from one path perspective. On the non-love path, no, Kaija very much does not disobey orders at all, she is told to intercept by Linnae, she does not do it of her own volition.

And on the loved her until I saw her true colors path she came of her own volition, got into trouble for it and then got dumped.

 

[Rehwyn]

Only on a certain path. On others she is told to by Linnae and Linnae covers her ass with the council to avoid her getting into trouble.

This is why (not having a go at you) in a heavy story based game, you should play all paths so you know when you are stating facts, or just saying something from one path perspective. On the non-love path, no, Kaija very much does not disobey orders at all, she is told to intercept by Linnae, she does not do it of her own volition.

I generally take the perspective that alternate paths aren't canon unless you're on that path, since motives and whatnot can be so different. In my mind, the Kaija that saves you because she's ordered to is a different person than the one that abandons her mission to save you. They are "alternate universe" versions of each other.

So yeah, my perspective is from a Kaija love path. It's the path on which the decision of whether or not to forgive her matters the most.

 

[Dessolos]

I'm curious if people with this perspective would view things differently if the situation was grounded more in reality than fantasy.

For example, if Kaija was like... a secret CIA operative protecting you from international crime syndicates that had a grudge against your parents. Personally, it'd be upsetting but quickly forgivable. The only potential romantic partners she could have while being transparent without breaking other vows would be CIA operative within the same operational unit. And your parents specifically told her not to tell you. So it's easy for me to empathize with the conflict she must have felt wanting to be honest with you as romantic feelings grew but not being able to without becoming foresworn or even potentially putting you in danger.

Yes, learning she's been dishonest would hurt, probably quite a bit. But if it was clear that she was remorseful and wanted to tell you but couldn't, I'd likely be quick to forgive with the caveat that going forward we're in it together.

This is one of the few reasons I kind of why I find it easy to forgive her. I view her role within the Templars as something like a CIA agent where she can't tell the MC not just because she would get in trouble. But also because it's something she has to show the MC for him to believe. So I really don't blame her at all for the lies because of this.

There is more reasons of course but this is just one of them.

 

[xapican]

And on the loved her until I saw her true colors path she came of her own volition, got into trouble for it and then got dumped.

In German please ? that sounded Spanish to me ?
(free translated phrase to say I understood shit what motsy meant )