RPGM The Solarion Project [v0.31.2] [Naughty Underworld]

[_Itsukaze]

Ah yes. "Hero".

Not a hero for everyone I see x)

 

[kratoscar2008]

Ah yes. "Hero".

Guess that makes you the antagonist. Not necessarily bad mind you. On the flipside the fact that it hasnt been shared means your supporters respect you in a way so congratulations.

 

[Naughty Underworld]

I won't open up this can of worms any further. But simply if there isn't enough support for the game, it doesn't get made.

 

[MrHanni]

I won't open up this can of worms any further. But simply if there isn't enough support for the game, it doesn't get made.

The whole 'hero' thing aside. Have you considered going down from Tier 3 to Tier 2 (to Tier 1) to Public in a weekly cycle instead of a two-week cycle like now?
It's something that I see more commonly on Patreon.

 

[SilverFJPC21]

I won't open up this can of worms any further. But simply if there isn't enough support for the game, it doesn't get made.

From what I've seen for other games in the past, initally they didn't have enough patreons since they were still small. I still remember when Amity Park was till in its 0.1 demo. Back then it did not have enough support in patreon, but as the game grew, more people kept getting aware of the game and now, you can say it is a successful game. Just keep doing what you've been doing until now, and of course taking the ocasional breaks. I wish you well, cheers .

 

[Naughty Underworld]

The whole 'hero' thing aside. Have you considered going down from Tier 3 to Tier 2 (to Tier 1) to Public in a weekly cycle instead of a two-week cycle like now?
It's something that I see more commonly on Patreon.

I'm going to be making some big changes to the reward tiers as I'm not overly happy with them at the moment. I'm going to do some research first before changing anything though.

 

[Pnsrex]

I'm going to be making some big changes to the reward tiers as I'm not overly happy with them at the moment. I'm going to do some research first before changing anything though.

Truthfully the only reason I didn't contribute to the "maker" tier while it was a thing was because the project was quiet for months at a time. Now that it's being focused on, if it was an option...
I snooze I lose, I suppose.

 

[77outlaw77]

Ah yes. "Hero".

Nergal, you make great games man. I can't argue with that.
But I supported you for over a year, and during that time I got one smallish update and a lot of apologies.
You can't argue that you've used up a lot of good will with your supporters and shouldn't be surprised.
You're probably going to have to bust your ass pretty hard in producing strong regular content to win back that lost good will.

 

[Naughty Underworld]

Nergal, you make great games man. I can't argue with that.
But I supported you for over a year, and during that time I got one smallish update and a lot of apologies.
You can't argue that you've used up a lot of good will with your supporters and shouldn't be surprised.
You're probably going to have to bust your ass pretty hard in producing strong regular content to win back that lost good will.

Before I reply to this in length to try and clear some things up, I want to state right up front that I do not think the way I worked or how I worked during a large part of last year was correct for the standards I had set myself or the standards the fans expected. It's why I waited for as long as I have to start working on TSP because I wanted to be in the right head space for it.

Firstly, thank you for the comment, I'm glad you enjoy my games! When it comes down to it, that's all I have wanted from this side project / business / hobby, whatever you want to call it. For people to enjoy the things that I create, and I know people do enjoy them because they generate such extreme emotional reactions sometimes (both positive and negative). And if I can make a living off it too, that would be great!

However I will have to say that you might possibly be mistaken, if you pledged for an entire year there wasn't a point where you would have received only one update. (There were 3 updates in 2019). Unless of course you're referring to the gap between 0.9 the massive remake (June 2018) to the 0.10 build (Feb 2019), which while I apologise on such the large gap having to occur, I won't however (and never will) apologise for prioritising my mental health over this side project / hobby.

What I WILL and always will apologise for is the way I handled it. I should have been more communicative to the fans and explain and update frequently about what is going on rather than leaving everyone in the dark. Luckily the days of not wanting to do anything worthwhile, productive, satisfying or generally beneficial to my well being are behind me. I still have bad days, but with therapy and general change in attitude things are better than they have been in a very long while. (This goes back to when I took time off end of 2017/early 2018 and didn't think I would be returning.) And I'm returning to that time of 2016/2017 when motivation was at an all time high and eagerness (and frankly, excitement!) working on these projects was what I looked forward to.

I'm hoping people will be able to see that, and I'm obviously not saying I deserve support just because "lolsupportmeplz", but I am already working my ass off on this project and if people want to see that continue and the project to flourish then they should definitely support. I've invested a lot of my personal money (and I mean a lot) into this project already so at some point a line has to be drawn in the sand where we say "this isn't profitable and we can't continue". If that happens and people decide it's because they don't wish to support me, that's ok, it will just be a much shorter project than I imagined. At least I tried right?

 

[Vikky007]

Before I reply to this in length to try and clear some things up, I want to state right up front that I do not think the way I worked or how I worked during a large part of last year was correct for the standards I had set myself or the standards the fans expected. It's why I waited for as long as I have to start working on TSP because I wanted to be in the right head space for it.

Firstly, thank you for the comment, I'm glad you enjoy my games! When it comes down to it, that's all I have wanted from this side project / business / hobby, whatever you want to call it. For people to enjoy the things that I create, and I know people do enjoy them because they generate such extreme emotional reactions sometimes (both positive and negative). And if I can make a living off it too, that would be great!

However I will have to say that you might possibly be mistaken, if you pledged for an entire year there wasn't a point where you would have received only one update. (There were 3 updates in 2019). Unless of course you're referring to the gap between 0.9 the massive remake (June 2018) to the 0.10 build (Feb 2019), which while I apologise on such the large gap having to occur, I won't however (and never will) apologise for prioritising my mental health over this side project / hobby.

What I WILL and always will apologise for is the way I handled it. I should have been more communicative to the fans and explain and update frequently about what is going on rather than leaving everyone in the dark. Luckily the days of not wanting to do anything worthwhile, productive, satisfying or generally beneficial to my well being are behind me. I still have bad days, but with therapy and general change in attitude things are better than they have been in a very long while. (This goes back to when I took time off end of 2017/early 2018 and didn't think I would be returning.) And I'm returning to that time of 2016/2017 when motivation was at an all time high and eagerness (and frankly, excitement!) working on these projects was what I looked forward to.

I'm hoping people will be able to see that, and I'm obviously not saying I deserve support just because "lolsupportmeplz", but I am already working my ass off on this project and if people want to see that continue and the project to flourish then they should definitely support. I've invested a lot of my personal money (and I mean a lot) into this project already so at some point a line has to be drawn in the sand where we say "this isn't profitable and we can't continue". If that happens and people decide it's because they don't wish to support me, that's ok, it will just be a much shorter project than I imagined. At least I tried right?

I think people believe you can make a good game. But many who supported you in the past may remember how you half-assed UD when you started working on this. I remember patrons paying on the UD patreon, obviously thinking they were supporting UD, only to have you use the money to start up this new project while neglecting the quality of UD. Your games have been decent but you come off as not trustworthy. UD was supposed to be polished some time in the future after the 1.0 beta right? A final version was supposed to be released yet your blog hasnt had an update since the incomplete beta version was released. If you did right by those that supported you and gave them a game that was to the best of your ability, then even saying "lolsupportmeplz" on this project would have yielded massive support. TSP looks to be quality, but UD was also of much higher quality initially. UD is still yet to be completed and its quality degraded after time. You're feeling better now and I'm glad to hear that but it doesn't change the disappointment that surrounds your last project. So don't be surprised if people want to support but don't know if they can trust you to keep your promises.

 

[77outlaw77]

I think people believe you can make a good game. But many who supported you in the past may remember how you half-assed UD when you started working on this. I remember patrons paying on the UD patreon, obviously thinking they were supporting UD, only to have you use the money to start up this new project while neglecting the quality of UD. Your games have been decent but you come off as not trustworthy. UD was supposed to be polished some time in the future after the 1.0 beta right? A final version was supposed to be released yet your blog hasnt had an update since the incomplete beta version was released. If you did right by those that supported you and gave them a game that was to the best of your ability, then even saying "lolsupportmeplz" on this project would have yielded massive support. TSP looks to be quality, but UD was also of much higher quality initially. UD is still yet to be completed and its quality degraded after time. You're feeling better now and I'm glad to hear that but it doesn't change the disappointment that surrounds your last project. So don't be surprised if people want to support but don't know if they can trust you to keep your promises.

I think that UD did get completed, but very much the same way that AZL was, just kind of a thrown together ending that failed to deliver on the game's promise or the promised content.
I do want to support Nergal in trying to be in a better place and make a better game, because even unfinished I think that UD and AZL are some of the best games on this site.

I get how going back to his old projects is complicated because artists have moved on, and there's just a lot of spoiled good will there. That all said I agree with you that it would be much easier to bring in good will for his new projects if the old games were to get a proper completion. That might take who-knows how long though, given the amount of content needed to fill the promises made.

Nergal wants a clean slate with a better-designed game with Solarion. I can get behind that, and I can support him. He really does make good games, and I want to see more from him. That said though, he's at bat with two strikes. If we start seeing the decline with Solarion that we saw with AZL and UD then, well, I think that'd be it for me.

That's just me though.

 

[Naughty Underworld]

I think people believe you can make a good game. But many who supported you in the past may remember how you half-assed UD when you started working on this.

I didn't start working on this until the "final" build for UD was out. It was around the same the UD patreon was mass reported and suspended ending any possibility of funding the game.

I remember patrons paying on the UD patreon, obviously thinking they were supporting UD, only to have you use the money to start up this new project while neglecting the quality of UD.

I think you misunderstand how Patreon works. People pledge to support creators. The creators can use the money they receive however they like (a lot use it as a way to make a living). The creators can decide how much they want to reinvest back into their projects. Since the only cost I had with UD was art from Glassfish there was no other way for me to reinvest in the project anyway. So it made sense to fund my other project, and truth be told that's how I had been funding TSP since pretty much the very start.

Your games have been decent but you come off as not trustworthy. UD was supposed to be polished some time in the future after the 1.0 beta right? A final version was supposed to be released yet your blog hasnt had an update since the incomplete beta version was released.

You're right on this and I've been trying to squeeze that into my schedule for a while. Do remember this isn't my actual job. I work a 9-5, I have friends and family that need visiting / seeing, on-top of the gym, learning to drive my "spare" time is relatively limited and at the moment is making sure I keep up with my TSP obligations at the moment.

TSP looks to be quality, but UD was also of much higher quality initially. UD is still yet to be completed and its quality degraded after time. You're feeling better now and I'm glad to hear that but it doesn't change the disappointment that surrounds your last project. So don't be surprised if people want to support but don't know if they can trust you to keep your promises.

I think I was in a rock and hard place with the UD ending anyway, being honest. I don't think I could have ended it in anyway that would have been satisfactory to the fans (most didn't want to see it end either and wouldn't have been happy with the fact it was ending.) I tried my best with what resources I had available to me at the time.

As for the quality slipping you mentioned, what specifically are we talking about? Because I know a lot of people prefer the 0.9 revamp where all the progressions for each character changed and it was generally viewed as quite a good thing (even if it meant re-writing all the characters).

And one last question, but what promises exactly were made that weren't kept? I'd like this to be clarified if that is ok.

I think that UD did get completed, but very much the same way that AZL was, just kind of a thrown together ending that failed to deliver on the game's promise or the promised content.

Again as above, can you indicate what promises were made in relation to the game?

As for the ending I actually do feel a little upset that's your opinion of the ending. You can not like it, that's fine, but to say it was thrown together is definitely an understatement of the amount effort that went into making something different, but also felt "UD". Coding the two ending bosses wasn't easy and took a lot of bug testing and time spent getting it right.

Maybe a better question would, what were you expecting from the ending? What "should" have I done? I'm interested for opinion on this as I'm generally confused when occasionally someone makes a remark like this.

I do want to support Nergal in trying to be in a better place and make a better game, because even unfinished I think that UD and AZL are some of the best games on this site.

I think that is something so many people seem to forget that like to complain about the games, specifically UD in this case. There is so much content is actually in them. I'm not just talking about unique artwork either (which there are tonne of in comparison to other games), but also the in depth progressions for each character. The fact that there are 2 (arguably 3) unique dialogues for each sex scene depending on specific player choices. The amount of maps and just general interaction dialogue in the game.

I get how going back to his old projects is complicated because artists have moved on, and there's just a lot of spoiled good will there. That all said I agree with you that it would be much easier to bring in good will for his new projects if the old games were to get a proper completion. That might take who-knows how long though, given the amount of content needed to fill the promises made.

Going back is likely not going to happen. Artists "moving on" (and I'm not sure what you mean at all about spoiled good will?) isn't a problem. It's the fact it can no longer be funded in the first place, thanks to the mass reporting that came from this site. And simply put I cannot afford to hire artists and animators to finish these projects without funding to do so. It's an unfortunate consequence of actions people took on this site.

And again there is that thing about promises, and I'm not sure what you are referring to?

Nergal wants a clean slate with a better-designed game with Solarion. I can get behind that, and I can support him. He really does make good games, and I want to see more from him. That said though, he's at bat with two strikes. If we start seeing the decline with Solarion that we saw with AZL and UD then, well, I think that'd be it for me.

That's just me though.

I'm at strike two for creating two really good games? Damn that's a harsh standard to live up to!

But seriously, I get what you are saying. I don't see TSP as a "clean slate" though. If I did, I'd probably not be responding here or in the AZL thread, I'd delete my blog and pretend it never happened. I'm actually proud of my work on UD and AZL. It gave me a lot of knowledge about ways to design and best practises that I now use in TSP. Honestly, I don't feel "done" with these projects, but I feel the choice was taken away from me in quite a few regards. As I said I tried my best with the resources I had available to me and I don't think I was capable of making an ending that would have left people feeling "good" that the game was over. I think the fact that both games were ending was enough to imprint just a bad emotional response that it wouldn't have mattered what I could have done for an ending.

That said, I still want to hear what people were expecting from a UD ending and maybe I can better explain why the things they wanted didn't happen. (Though I'd recommend doing this on the actual UD thread rather than here, as this already slightly getting off-topic from TSP.)

 

[Vikky007]

I didn't start working on this until the "final" build for UD was out. It was around the same the UD patreon was mass reported and suspended ending any possibility of funding the game.

If that's true I apologize, though I find that hard to believe.
I could be wrong but I'm sure I remembered patrons complaining about where the money pledged towards the UD project went and you explaining on discord that some was going towards TSP development even though they were expecting you to be working on UD. Surely you started work on TSP before you said? No? Then I'll apologize.

I think you misunderstand how Patreon works. People pledge to support creators. The creators can use the money they receive however they like (a lot use it as a way to make a living). The creators can decide how much they want to reinvest back into their projects. Since the only cost I had with UD was art from Glassfish there was no other way for me to reinvest in the project anyway. So it made sense to fund my other project, and truth be told that's how I had been funding TSP since pretty much the very start.

I guess that's fair. I just think working on another game with money obtained from patrons intended for Urban demons is a bit wrong. They support you (bills, recreation etc) AND Urban Demons, not TSP. I guess you'll say TSP falls under hobbies and recreation and that money was properly and sufficiently allocated for UD to be a quality game... Fair enough even though I personally disagree .eg. The trello promised a lot yet didn't deliver, also UD could have used some more original Art rather than reusing the same scenes over and over. Agree to disagree.

You're right on this and I've been trying to squeeze that into my schedule for a while. Do remember this isn't my actual job. I work a 9-5, I have friends and family that need visiting / seeing, on-top of the gym, learning to drive my "spare" time is relatively limited and at the moment is making sure I keep up with my TSP obligations at the moment.

This is what I meant by broken promises. I don't think you're a scummy person but you gave the impression UD would be polished and assured that the beta was not the final version and then boom, TSP gets released. Forgive me if I assumed you shelved UD and broke your promise of finishing UD.

And one last question, but what promises exactly were made that weren't kept? I'd like this to be clarified if that is ok.

See above.

I wasn't really venting tbh. Maybe just a little. In actuality I was stating a fact that you're a developer that should be supported however people might not and it would be because of how things were handled in the past. Things that weren't even made right yet, regardless if you think you did everything correctly. Guess we'll see. P.S I hope you get support!

 

[Naughty Underworld]

If that's true I apologize, though I find that hard to believe.
I could be wrong but I'm sure I remembered patrons complaining about where the money pledged towards the UD project went and you explaining on discord that some was going towards TSP development even though they were expecting you to be working on UD. Surely you started work on TSP before you said? No? Then I'll apologize.

The only thing I was doing on TSP before 1.0 beta build was released was organising / commissioning artwork. Once the 1.0 build dropped in October I started working on TSP. I had worked on a version earlier, about a year or two ago I think that I showed a video before, but ended up re-writing pretty much all that code. And no I've never had anyone complain on my discord (to my knowledge) about "where the money is going", mainly because everyone (I thought) was aware it went to funding my other projects (I've said it enough times).

I guess that's fair. I just think working on another game with money obtained from patrons intended for Urban demons is a bit wrong. They support you (bills, recreation etc) AND Urban Demons, not TSP. I guess you'll say TSP falls under hobbies and recreation and that money was properly and sufficiently allocated for UD to be a quality game... Fair enough even though I personally disagree .eg. The trello promised a lot yet didn't deliver, also UD could have used some more original Art rather than reusing the same scenes over and over. Agree to disagree.

I think you're misunderstanding how the patreon worked, which is fair enough, it was common knowledge, but you may have missed the couple times it was discussed. Glassfish and I split the patreon evenly, so after everything was split what we had was "ours" so to speak. If we had to invest in software or commissioning writers or game graphics then we'd take the cost out before splitting it. It was the fairest way. So I wasn't being facetious when I said the money I had literally couldn't do anything towards the game that wasn't being done already.

You mentioned about missing artwork, though my control over that was very limited. The trello was a list of ideas we had that we thought were cool or would improve the game. Not all were guaranteed to be in the game (in fact a lot were under the "DLC" tag). No promise was made that this would 100% be in the game. Additionally when we had to wrap up the game due to patreon being shut down because of mass reporting from here, we had to feasibly add in what we could with the time we had remaining on it.

I wasn't really venting tbh. Maybe just a little. In actuality I was stating a fact that you're a developer that should be supported however people might not and it would be because of how things were handled in the past. Things that weren't even made right yet, regardless if you think you did everything correctly. Guess we'll see. P.S I hope you get support!

Thanks, I hope so too! This project will be a lot shorter than expected if we don't.

 

[Vikky007]

The only thing I was doing on TSP before 1.0 beta build was released was organising / commissioning artwork. Once the 1.0 build dropped in October I started working on TSP. I had worked on a version earlier, about a year or two ago I think that I showed a video before, but ended up re-writing pretty much all that code. And no I've never had anyone complain on my discord (to my knowledge) about "where the money is going", mainly because everyone (I thought) was aware it went to funding my other projects (I've said it enough times).



I think you're misunderstanding how the patreon worked, which is fair enough, it was common knowledge, but you may have missed the couple times it was discussed. Glassfish and I split the patreon evenly, so after everything was split what we had was "ours" so to speak. If we had to invest in software or commissioning writers or game graphics then we'd take the cost out before splitting it. It was the fairest way. So I wasn't being facetious when I said the money I had literally couldn't do anything towards the game that wasn't being done already.

You mentioned about missing artwork, though my control over that was very limited. The trello was a list of ideas we had that we thought were cool or would improve the game. Not all were guaranteed to be in the game (in fact a lot were under the "DLC" tag). No promise was made that this would 100% be in the game. Additionally when we had to wrap up the game due to patreon being shut down because of mass reporting from here, we had to feasibly add in what we could with the time we had remaining on it.



Thanks, I hope so too! This project will be a lot shorter than expected if we don't.

Ok I guess we're at a point where we shall agree to disagree but all I'll say finally is that I hope you are doing better mentally and I wish you the best. Please try to reclaim the drive and the way you operated at the beginning of UD and AZL, if you haven't already. Good luck.

 

[lobotomist]

My biggest problem with the state of urban demons was that a lot of dialogue was missing causing a lot of bugs.

 

[sexyegg]

What is the deal with V.3? Is it not going to be released public until v.4 is released for patreons?

 

[Naughty Underworld]

What is the deal with V.3? Is it not going to be released public until v.4 is released for patreons?

Correct! The public version always comes out 4 weeks after it's first released to patrons.

 

[kratoscar2008]

Correct! The public version always comes out 4 weeks after it's first released to patrons.

Who is the 0.4 girl btw?

 

[Naughty Underworld]

Who is the 0.4 girl btw?