Ren'Py Completed Valkyrie: The Fall [v1.00] [Tjord]

[netcov]

Hey Tjord !
First of all: congratz on your release. I like the way you build up the games in this universe, every sequel referencing the games prior. One thing I did not understand was the distinction for "Full route". Basically I played as advised in the normal route which is then cut short and then restarted with full route skipping through the seen texts just to glimpse into the unseen scenes.

As for the discussed theme in this game: I think it is totally okay to switch things up and view this game as something where Codename Nao is practically just picking a fruit of his labour from ISIS (canon ending). Also having a solid Ren'Py FMC corruption game with HS2 graphics is not that common if you go by latest updates and look up by weighted rating sorted.
So you guys need to take a step and enjoy the game for what it is: not a MMC corruption harem game.

I'll write a review for this game at a later time where I'll give some pointers on (4-5*).
Finally regarding the ending: I wished the alt ending is the canonical one. I did enjoy it far more, but I do get the canon ending for the sake of continuity in the series.

 

[kzk0987]

For what its worth, I never really liked the male mcs that much. Maybe its just being overfed by them, but they were your typical edgy tropey villains. Though that felt kinda intended.

Here going to female mc was pretty interesting. I was really wondering where you would go with the ensign and then... hahaha. Thats what is great about playing in the dark. I was really wondering where the corruption would be. I think that FMC was perhaps a bit underutilized. You could have perhaps shown female mc changing while the others are still around, some normal thinking altered, thinking acting in certain ways is "fine" etc.

So yeah, loved the change, I also liked the setting, final form was too "tribal" for me. Specially Mao, I really liked her hair and then you get almost no scenes with the hair she had, only that weird head bush later on.

EDIT: also by going too tribal transformation, you lose that "prim high tech world girl" vs "primal savage" contrast. Personally I am always about contrast with corruption. Fat guy with a sporty girl. Neat freak with an absolute slob of a guy. Ugly bastard and an absolute model etc.

I like both approaches. Male protagonists to me are better when they are very evil, it's fun playing the bad guy in corruption and mind control games. I get fed up very fast in supposed corruption games that try to have a sympathetic, "caring" good-natured main character. Like for fuck's sake I'm here to corrupt and enslave women, I want to play as a bastard.
But seeing the perspective of the female characters as the situation grows more and more hopeless for them, and then seeing how they are changed by the brainwashing process is also very good.

 

[taler]

I had to google the artist. I recognize the style, but I can't say I am a fan.

In all honesty, I am myself... not the biggest fan of girls' final forms in Valkyrie :> But I made this aesthetic choice very early, as it fit best the tone and story I was writing. And I don't think it was a mistake. It's just is that way with H games - one minor detail, one incompatiblity can be enough to make a player totally lose interest. But if I cared about that, I'd be churning vanilla incest romcoms instead of filling a niche.

I think the important thing is that you yourself like it and be able to convey your passion for it.

Can you tell me in a spoiler if the POV girl achieves victory or is she on the losing end?

 

[Kulman]

I like both approaches. Male protagonists to me are better when they are very evil, it's fun playing the bad guy in corruption and mind control games. I get fed up very fast in supposed corruption games that try to have a sympathetic, "caring" good-natured main character. Like for fuck's sake I'm here to corrupt and enslave women, I want to play as a bastard.
But seeing the perspective of the female characters as the situation grows more and more hopeless to them, and then as they are changed by the brainwashing process is also very good.

My problem is that bad guys are usually very 1 dimensional. They feel almost cartoonishly evil.

My perfect bad guy MC is Mars from Hero party must fall. Though I guess that makes sense, since that novel is overall just absurdly well written.

 

[taler]

My problem is that bad guys are usually very 1 dimensional. They feel almost cartoonishly evil.

My perfect bad guy MC is Mars from Hero party must fall. Though I guess that makes sense, since that novel is overall just absurdly well written.

Agreed totally. Any other VNs as well written as that one? I just feel like that's basically an unreachable standard for writing ability for most people on the site.

 

[netcov]

Can you tell me in a spoiler if the POV girl achieves victory or is she on the losing end?

Spoiler: Endings

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[TheMayflower]

wowie, its out at last!

 

[Kulman]

Agreed totally. Any other VNs as well written as that one? I just feel like that's basically an unreachable standard for writing ability for most people on the site.

Frankly I think its the top 1 for me. I remember being pretty surprised by Nothing is Forever, while a pretty different genre, the writing was very good.

This might be obvious, but I found Being a Dik very well written. Out of all the "top" games, I found it to be the only one that wasnt so cringy waifu wish fullfillment fantasy (looking at you Eternum). Yeah the theme is immature, but it takes a mature author to write immature setting well and I think they nailed it. Anyway getting off topic, sorry.

 

[Tjord]

My problem is that bad guys are usually very 1 dimensional. They feel almost cartoonishly evil.

Complex evil MCs introduce unnecessary sugar to what should be a superblack coffee. I don't think they fit in "my" genre.

 

[kzk0987]

My problem is that bad guys are usually very 1 dimensional. They feel almost cartoonishly evil.

My perfect bad guy MC is Mars from Hero party must fall. Though I guess that makes sense, since that novel is overall just absurdly well written.

Being cartoonishly evil is not a problem for me, usually. Especially in the context of corruption or mind control, it usually just means it'll lead to an over the top result, which I usually like. The girls completely debasing themselves etc. As long as the game is self-aware about what it's doing and doesn't think it's writing a deep protagonist, I'm fine with the evil guy being just an evil guy. With some backstory or motivation to add context and make him feel like a part of the world, but still keeping it simple. Honestly, it's not like the good guy MCs tend to be well-written either, so I'll take the one that's fun.

I still need to play Hero Party Must Fall. Keep hearing about that game.

 

[Kulman]

Complex evil MCs introduce unnecessary sugar to what should be a superblack coffee. I don't think they fit in "my" genre.

Yeah thats why I wrote that it felt intentional. Frankly I am here for the chicks, not the dude. He is more of a tool, which is why I didnt miss losing a male mc. Hero party must fall is a bit of a different beast, trying to be more introspective. Thats not what you are writing here and thats fine, they are different things (genres).

 

[taler]

Complex evil MCs introduce unnecessary sugar to what should be a superblack coffee. I don't think they fit in "my" genre.

It doesn't have anything to do with complexity, it's just some basic psychology to make evil realistic. So instead of I'm so evil hohoho, it's, the good guys actually have it coming to them because they're weak or they did something bad in the past or this is the only way for me to advance and secure a future for my children or i need to save my in-group so fuck their out-group, etc. You can justify pretty much every villain with one of the above.

 

[kzk0987]

It doesn't have anything to do with complexity, it's just some basic psychology to make evil realistic. So instead of I'm so evil hohoho, it's, the good guys actually have it coming to them because they're weak or they did something bad in the past or this is the only way for me to advance and secure a future for my children or i need to save my in-group so fuck their out-group, etc. You can justify pretty much every villain with one of the above.

The villain must always be justified? Can't they just be... Wrong? And still trample over the heroines even though they have no grounds to stand on? Evil triumphing even though they are completely unjustified can be a good spice on a forced corruption story.
I feel "the good guys deserved it" really takes away from a game where the point is forcefully taking everything away from the heroines and twisting them in the bad guy's image. There can be some element of hubris and some morally gray things, but I don't feel like an actual justification is necessary unless you want to go for another kind of story entirely (a revenge story, put simply).
The villain can have other qualities, which in Tjord's case I think he went with making his villain protagonists cunning and almost always in an underdog/disadvantageous position.

Edited for clarity.

 

[taler]

The villain must always be justified? Can't they just be... Wrong? And still trample over the heroines even though they have no grounds to stand on? Evil triumphing even though they are completely unjustified can be a good spice on a forced corruption story.
I feel "the good guys deserved it" really takes away from a game where the point is taking everything away from the heroines and twisting them in the bad guy's image. There can be some element of hubris and some morally gray things, but I don't feel like they are strictly necessary.
The villain can have other qualities, which in Tjord's case I think he went with making his villain protagonists cunning and almost always in an underdog/disadvantageous position.

No it's just self-rationalization that everyone does. Don't confuse what the villain thinks to himself vs what is the third party perspective.

 

[kzk0987]

No it's just self-rationalization that everyone does. Don't confuse what the villain thinks to himself vs what is the third party perspective.

True. I think Tjord's protagonists do have that self-rationalization though? Isis' protagonist lost his planet and family influence. Valdana's lost his lucrative human trafficking ring (twice). From their perspective, they're getting back at the girls. It's just that their motives are still wrong from the beginning. A character can have that rationalization and still be cartoonishly exaggerated in their ways.

No one was talking about protagonists who literally say "I am evil". The only protagonists like that I can think of are literal demons fighting magical girls and such.

 

[taler]

True. I think Tjord's protagonists do have that self-realization though? Isis' protagonist lost his planet and family influence. Valdana's lost his lucrative human trafficking ring (twice). From their perspective, they're getting back at the girls. It's just that their motives are still wrong from the beginning.

Yes they do, so the idea is there but the vibe is still kinda cartoonish, if he can refine it then it would work. The issue is that the villain seems to think the enemy is in the right, which is strange. The narrator can show us the enemy being good but still have the villain think the enemy deserves the bad outcome and believe in the superiority of the evil side. Here the fetish seems to be showing the evil side as bumbling idiots and the good side to be paragons until the corruption happens. It's not that it's bad or anything, I'm just not feeling it as psychologically believable. But I think much of the point of this writer IS to be a self-hating criminal, like that's the fetish, it's just not a relatable one to me.

 

[kzk0987]

Yes they do, so the idea is there but the vibe is still kinda cartoonish, if he can refine it then it would work. The issue is that the villain seems to think the enemy is in the right, which is strange. The narrator can show us the enemy being good but still have the villain think the enemy deserves the bad outcome and believe in the superiority of the evil side. Here the fetish seems to be showing the evil side as bumbling idiots and the good side to be paragons until the corruption happens. It's not that it's bad or anything, I'm just not feeling it as psychologically believable. But I think much of the point of this writer IS to be a self-hating criminal, like that's the fetish, it's just not a relatable one to me.

Yeah, I think you hit the nail in the head here. That's the fetish. It's less that the point is the evil side being a bumbling idiot and more that the heroines are superior. The point is seeing the female characters being degraded and dominated by someone who by all accounts was lesser than them but who reduced them to something even more base and pathetic. At least in my interpretation.

 

[taler]

Yeah, I think you hit the nail in the head here. That's the fetish. It's less that the point is the evil side being a bumbling idiot and more that the heroines are superior. The point is seeing the female characters being degraded and dominated by someone who by all accounts was lesser than them but who reduced them to something even more base and pathetic. At least in my interpretation.

Right but I'm saying with developed enough writing skills you can have it both ways. The reader can see the purity of the good side and what the loss to the corruption is, but still have a psychologically complete MC. In fact this can intensify the fetish and the tragedy to the corruption if the MC thinks ill of the enemy based on a very uncharitable and biased perspective, but the reader can think otherwise.

Edit: On reflection this comment drifted away from what you said the point is, which is that the fetish is the MC should be self-hating, which is strange to me but I give that it might be "the fetish" for some people. But yeah it's basically the opposite of why I play porn games, eg for the "power fantasy". So it's less "conquering these great people and turning them into my tools", which is maybe the typical male fantasy but it's more of a "I'm an absolute piece of garbage and I'm dragging these great people down with me". So maybe it's just a fetish compatibility thing. It's interesting if that's what this is... but records of and Prison Battleship doesn't read this way to me, it's just "The fall".

Edit 2: Maybe records IS like this. I personally didn't find the MC that pathetic but maybe on a second thought that was the intent. He shares a LOT of similarities with the fall protags, maybe the writer thought people didn't understand records and made the fall protags even more exaggerated.

 

[Kulman]

Right but I'm saying with developed enough writing skills you can have it both ways. The reader can see the purity of the good side and what the loss to the corruption is, but still have a psychologically complete MC. In fact this can intensify the fetish and the tragedy to the corruption if the MC thinks ill of the enemy based on a very uncharitable and biased perspective, but the reader can think otherwise.

While I generally agree with you, this doesnt seem like that kind of novel. It is a bit of a different genre, where you would have an evil MC with a pained history, corrupting the girls but also using his complex character to kinda win them over.

Here, because the corruption is done forcefully by external devices, it doesnt need a deep MC that has connections with the females (other than hatred and inferiority). A deep introspective MC just doesnt really fit this kind of story in my opinion. Also its much harder to write, which is energy I would rather be spent on the females.

 

[taler]

While I generally agree with you, this doesnt seem like that kind of novel. It is a bit of a different genre, where you would have an evil MC with a pained history, corrupting the girls but also using his complex character to kinda win them over.

Here, because the corruption is done forcefully by external devices, it doesnt need a deep MC that has connections with the females (other than hatred and inferiority). A deep introspective MC just doesnt really fit this kind of story in my opinion. Also its much harder to write, which is energy I would rather be spent on the females.

I don't think I'm asking for "introspective" rather just some measure of psychological defense against self-doubt, it makes the MC more fun to follow and more charismatic. I don't agree it is difficult or complex. But yes thinking about it that might change the villain to be more confident and powerful, which I guess is not the fetish (see my edits to my previous comment). The point might be to make the villain pathetic so it does make sense why they would be like this, I just find it slightly unrealistic. I can't think of a single supervillain either IRL or in media that has this vibe. I would like to hear from the dev if this is the intent.