Views on Netorare

[ChaosOpen]

I would say that NTR is rather more difficult to write well than romance.
Which is, I think, part of the appeal and why it has such vocal supporters.

Not really, I could think up a few right now:

MCis bullied all throughout high school, as a final send off the bully pays a girl with sex to make the MC fall in love with her, then on the graduation day he is invited to a "graduation party" where everyone is gang banging the woman he is in love with and everyone has a laugh at the MC's expense.

MC works for as a pilot for an airline that requires him to be gone for days at a time. One of the people he works with convinces his wife that MC is cheating on her(which he isn't) and that she should get revenge. She ends up liking sex with her new partner and by the time MC figures out what is going on she has started to prefer the new guy regardless of whether MC was cheating.

Lets go to the middle ages, MC marries his childhood sweet heart but the local noble evokes the right of prima nocta(first night) and has sex with her on her wedding night. She goes back to have sex with her husband and discovers that the noble lord was far better in bed. So, she starts having an affair with the noble lord. She eventually leaves her husband and goes to live with the noble as his concubine since he can provide better sex and luxurious living conditions.

You can even NTR two people at once: MC allows his high school buddy to live with him when he falls on hard time, but when the friend arrives he discovers that he wants more from the MC than just room and board. He uses a sex tape of the MC from college before he met his wife to convince the wife that her husband is cheating on her. In order to get revenge, she doesn't sleep with his friend like the friend was planning, but instead goes to the MC's boss and agrees to sleep with him in exchange for firing her husband. He does fire him and she grows to enjoy being the boss' play thing. She leaves her husband and never has sex with the friend to live with the boss. The friend in a last gambit explains what happens but by then its too late, she doesn't care whether her husband cheated, even if it was a lie it allowed her to "feel real pleasure for the first time and now she isn't interested." Needless to say the former friends are no longer friends, the man is now homeless because his boss made sure that he would always get a bad review on any background checks. They both have been NTR'd and their lives ruined.
*You could also edit this down to say she simply found the clip on his computer and assumed it was a video of him cheating.

A woman "falls in love" with the MC and marries him. But turns out she actually has a cheating fetish and plans to use him to fulfill her fantasies. She then lives a life sleeping with other men, as the husband remains unaware. Whenever she has sex with her husband she takes a plan B pill while she lets her other partners cum inside her, so the MC ends up raising other men's children. It takes awhile for the husband to find out and only does it since the wife has gotten careless after years of subterfuge. He's doing the laundry and a used condom falls out, since, as far as he knows, the woman is on birth control and they don't use a condom(we'll say the condom was used because her partner that night has an STD), suspicion immediately springs to mind. When the MC finally catches his wife in the act she reveals that she never intended on a "happy marriage" to begin with and is shocked it took him this long to catch on.

The MC and his wife enjoys S&M with her having more than a little of a sadistic streak, the MC became the M mostly through stockholm syndrome and now lives as the submissive partner in their household. However, the wife has started to run out of ideas and wants to try being the M. However, the two have gotten so used to their roles that they aren't able to pull it off properly. So, the wife ties up the husband and surprises him by telling him that she found someone who can play the S and now the MC is going to be cucked. The scene plays out with the husband at first being against it but eventually he starts to find the woman who dominated him in turn be dominated to be very stimulating. As the story continues on she starts to enjoy the role of M more and more and finds her husband to be less and less necessary. So, she leaves the MC for good to go live with the new guy and be his full-time sex slave.

And for those of you who like incest or just want a really fucked-up story: girl is in love with her blood-related brother. But their sinful relationship would never be accepted. So she gets married then convinces her husband to allow her brother to stay in their house. She then proceeds to cheat on her husband with her brother. She wants to have her brother's children, so she uses the plan B method mentioned above to allow her and her brother to have children together which her family and her husband believe are the husbands who just happen to look more like the mother.

It's really not that hard, and for most of those you can work an NTR fetish on the husband's part in. All you need is a semi-rational reason for a girl to start a relationship with someone else and that someone else needs to have something over the MC, after that the story pretty much writes itself. However, for some reason they stumble at "rational reason" and it goes downhill from there as all of the plots seem to be based on the idiot ball. The idiot ball is a literary term where characters take turns being stupid because they must do so in order for the plot to work. So, you end up with a bunch of people whose actions don't make much sense.

 

[215303j]

Not really, I could think up a few right now:

You can sure think of a lot of scenario's. Are you sure you're not a fan?

Anyway, what I said earlier:

The difficult part is transferring that feeling of true love to a game (would be a nice subject for another thread how well that is actually achieved) and THEN destroying it on purpose.

Of your examples, the airline pilot is more or less the only one which I could relate to on a sufficient level to feel for the guy.
But, I feel nothing for his wife, because she's too complacent. A decent wife should not believe that the husband is cheating so easily, and if she does, the response of a decent wife should not be to cheat back but to file for divorce and take him to the cleaners. In short, the wife was a slut to begin with and good riddance for the guy. Since she cheated, it should be pretty cheap and easy to get rid of the slut and finally get it on with the cute stewardess.

Of course, I'm exaggarating and any of your scenario's could be written in a way that the player would feel connected. But it would not be that easy to write it like that.

If we take Big Brother for instance, Eric's relationship with the MC's mom didn't bother me at all. It bothered more than a few players but I didn't care about that. Eric's relationship with the MC's aunt bothered me even less, because she was clearly a slut. What got to me was the "sex ed" that he tried to do with Lisa, even though the player never saw any of it, because of Lisa's innocence. But there were plenty of people who hated Eric's relationship with any woman because they thought they were being NTR-ed. Which just goes to show how personal this entire thing is, and that is what makes it difficult to write.

In my opinion...

 

[ChaosOpen]

You can sure think of a lot of scenario's. Are you sure you're not a fan?

Anyway, what I said earlier:

It's not hard even if you aren't a fan, so the fact that people who actually enjoy this shit can't pull it off surprises me. I'm not a fan of wish fulfillment isekai ether, but give me a few minutes and I could come up with a few ideas. That being said, if I was actually writing a game I wouldn't come up with the concept. I'd come up with the characters, their looks, their personalities, their insecurities, what they like, dislike, and their main motivation; basically as much as I can to really build a person with a concrete personality rather than an object which moves the plot along. Only after I have a solid cast would I try to decide the scenario. Then I would write up an outline that would work similar to a storyboard, with every point and action in it so that I can quickly make changes to the plot without having to rewrite huge sections of the script. Only then would I write the script.

Of your examples, the airline pilot is more or less the only one which I could relate to on a sufficient level to feel for the guy.
But, I feel nothing for his wife, because she's too complacent. A decent wife should not believe that the husband is cheating so easily, and if she does, the response of a decent wife should not be to cheat back but to file for divorce and take him to the cleaners. In short, the wife was a slut to begin with and good riddance for the guy. Since she cheated, it should be pretty cheap and easy to get rid of the slut and finally get it on with the cute stewardess.

People will believe what they want to believe, ever tried to have a conversation with an anti-vaxxer? They will ignore a mountain of empirical evidence when it disagrees with them but jump on an unsourced forum post as if it was gospel. The point is that at the back of her mind the "spark" was disappearing and it wasn't motivation to cheat that she needed, but an excuse.

That being said, I have bad news for those who think a cheating wife will be "pretty cheap." In reality the judge gives almost no weight to the cause of the divorce, which means whether you cheated on her, she cheated on you, or the relationship just fizzled out doesn't matter, it won't change the result. All the judge cares about is allocation of the assets according to each spouses current need and contribution. If he cheated on her she will take him to the cleaners, now that she cheated on him, she will still take him to the cleaners; that's just the reality of divorce court.

 

[obibobi]

Have you played Big Brother or The Tyrant?
Or read khumak 's post?



I would say that NTR is rather more difficult to write well than romance.
Which is, I think, part of the appeal and why it has such vocal supporters.

How did you come to this terrible conclusion, fetishes in general don't require good writing although they can be made a lot better with it, they appeal to people just by being added and NTR's vocal support is a mixture of trolls and people trying to get their unappealing niche fetish. If something's appealing you don't need to ask for it, or ask for it that often.

The hardest thing to write is vanilla, it requires good writing because the author cannot use fetishes as a crutch.

 

[eversadboi]

What I find hilarious is people often overreact to ntr like it's the manifestation of pure evil when there are things worse than that. At the end of the day, it's just another porn trope that adds a twist to cheating.

 

[Buddawg]

Well, as someone said before. If I "identify" with the character, NTR is absolutely off the board. BB did it nicely, though I found it rather annoying. But it worked. So can it be a plot device, sure. But the fetish itself is an absolute opposite of MY beliefs. I never cheated, and I dont tolerate cheating in any way or form. "Cheating" with consent, no problem. But thats not NTR.
And I think thats a pretty common thing for those against NTR.

NTR is in its basis a negative fetish, and thus will generate a lot of friction. It categorizes in or close to humiliation fetishes, cuckold, forced interactions (feet, spitting, stinky things, pain etc) degredation and so on.
Negative fetishes will always cause a clash in a game structure, because most ppl play from a positive/opportunistic/hero perspective, and a negative fetish is a polar opposite. So when forced on them, they get angry, because it forces them to either change perspective (and possibly (probably almost every time) engagement in the character), or to try to ignore part of the game. But it will leave a mark, a scar on the game so speak.

Do I get why some ppl like it.. sure. I like some weird stuff too. But Im not fond of any kind of negative fetish. But the game itself SHOULD not be mixing positive with negative, unless its VERY well done, has an actual point and is vital to the games storyline. Just having it there for the sole reason of having it, or it not having ANY implications or validity to the games storyline... You just screwed the pooch for no reason.
On the other hand, if the game is made from a negative point of view. NTR is fine and dandy. It actually fits the game. Players enter the game with that perspective and expect negative ladden fetishes. Its all about matching gamestyle with fetishes. I think most developers dont even consider fetishes on a scale, and thus mix and match what ever, and fail to see why it causes backlash.

Even though NTR is a rather mild fetish, it just clashes with so many games moods and player perspectives. And in games where it fits, it gets pretty much ignored, because its "too" mild. So I can see why those for it wants it everywhere, and those against it are so opposed to it.


To give a decent example of how a negative fetish would work in a positive perspective game.
Take a look at Lord of the Rings. The movie is very positive, a heros tale. With a dark buildup in the turning of Frodo, into a Gollum. He does turn at the end (granted he gets saved from it, but he does turn first) but it builds the storyline, it builds suspence as it has a long buildup and kind of a limit of time as he progressively changes. This would be a bloody good NTR storyline in a game. But the NTR that comes at you from the side, and have no storybasis, very bad.

 

[ChaosOpen]

Well, as someone said before. If I "identify" with the character, NTR is absolutely off the board. BB did it nicely, though I found it rather annoying. But it worked. So can it be a plot device, sure. But the fetish itself is an absolute opposite of MY beliefs. I never cheated, and I dont tolerate cheating in any way or form. "Cheating" with consent, no problem. But thats not NTR.
And I think thats a pretty common thing for those against NTR.

NTR is in its basis a negative fetish, and thus will generate a lot of friction. It categorizes in or close to humiliation fetishes, cuckold, forced interactions (feet, spitting, stinky things, pain etc) degredation and so on.
Negative fetishes will always cause a clash in a game structure, because most ppl play from a positive/opportunistic/hero perspective, and a negative fetish is a polar opposite. So when forced on them, they get angry, because it forces them to either change perspective (and possibly (probably almost every time) engagement in the character), or to try to ignore part of the game. But it will leave a mark, a scar on the game so speak.

Do I get why some ppl like it.. sure. I like some weird stuff too. But Im not fond of any kind of negative fetish. But the game itself SHOULD not be mixing positive with negative, unless its VERY well done, has an actual point and is vital to the games storyline. Just having it there for the sole reason of having it, or it not having ANY implications or validity to the games storyline... You just screwed the pooch for no reason.
On the other hand, if the game is made from a negative point of view. NTR is fine and dandy. It actually fits the game. Players enter the game with that perspective and expect negative ladden fetishes. Its all about matching gamestyle with fetishes. I think most developers dont even consider fetishes on a scale, and thus mix and match what ever, and fail to see why it causes backlash.

Even though NTR is a rather mild fetish, it just clashes with so many games moods and player perspectives. And in games where it fits, it gets pretty much ignored, because its "too" mild. So I can see why those for it wants it everywhere, and those against it are so opposed to it.


To give a decent example of how a negative fetish would work in a positive perspective game.
Take a look at Lord of the Rings. The movie is very positive, a heros tale. With a dark buildup in the turning of Frodo, into a Gollum. He does turn at the end (granted he gets saved from it, but he does turn first) but it builds the storyline, it builds suspence as it has a long buildup and kind of a limit of time as he progressively changes. This would be a bloody good NTR storyline in a game. But the NTR that comes at you from the side, and have no storybasis, very bad.

That's a very interesting explanation.

Personally, I don't think it is impossible to work NTR into a positive story, but you'd have to use it as a conflict rather than the goal of the game.

For example, lets say a guy has a girlfriend who he loves dearly, even thinking of marrying her. Now he is going over to her apartment to surprise her with a bunch of flowers for their anniversary when she gets home from work. He has a key so he lets himself in when he hears "uh uh uh yeah" a.k.a. the sound of a woman moaning. He sneaks further back, checks into her room and there he sees his girlfriend having sex with a man he doesn't know. A shouting match starts, blows are exchanged, and after the interloper leaves the shouting continues and eventually the MC leaves in disgust, slamming the door behind him and swearing off women forever.

In a single scene we have learned more about the MC's character, personality, and motivation than most VNs explain with hours of dialogue. Now you've got the readers attention and they can sympathize with the character's conflict, after all, who wouldn't be upset when the person they hold most dear is having sex with a stranger on the one day they celebrate that bond? And since we now know a lot about the protag, the user will almost subconsciously make decisions based on what they think the character would say rather than looking up a walkthrough and mechanically play through all of the girl's routes then forget about it.

Now the author can write anything as long as he maintains the character's personality and the central motivation dictates his character arc.

 

[Buddawg]

That's a very interesting explanation.

Personally, I don't think it is impossible to work NTR into a positive story, but you'd have to use it as a conflict rather than the goal of the game.

For example, lets say a guy has a girlfriend who he loves dearly, even thinking of marrying her. Now he is going over to her apartment to surprise her with a bunch of flowers for their anniversary when she gets home from work. He has a key so he lets himself in when he hears "uh uh uh yeah" a.k.a. the sound of a woman moaning. He sneaks further back, checks into her room and there he sees his girlfriend having sex with a man he doesn't know. A shouting match starts, blows are exchanged, and after the interloper leaves the shouting continues and eventually the MC leaves in disgust, slamming the door behind him and swearing off women forever.

In a single scene we have learned more about the MC's character, personality, and motivation than most VNs explain with hours of dialogue. Now you've got the readers attention and they can sympathize with the character's conflict, after all, who wouldn't be upset when the person they hold most dear is having sex with a stranger on the one day they celebrate that bond? And since we now know a lot about the protag, the user will almost subconsciously make decisions based on what they think the character would say rather than looking up a walkthrough and mechanically play through all of the girl's routes then forget about it.

Now the author can write anything as long as he maintains the character's personality and the central motivation dictates his character arc.

That works too, as I stated.. it needs to be an integral part of the story. My end example was just that, an example But im honestly quite surprised I cant remember a story incooperating NTR like you just mentioned, as its very simple.

 

[StarCreator]

Frankly I would be more interested in people's thoughts on netori rather than netorare/netorase.

 

[JackNudista]

i generally dislike NTR content, especially if i feel invested in the characters(for example, i really like the bond between Rowan and Alexia in Seeds of chaos, so i chose to avoid NTR content in that game).
if the characters are uninteresting, or abusive, or anything that make me dislike their bond, then i'm fine with it

 

[JP110]

The things that pull me to the NTR genre is the art and if its netori or netorase. So far in my time lurking I have seen games with good art and VAs contain NTR or cheating tags on them. Some have meh plots but my is more likely in the scenes, because what matters is if the girl is getting that ahegao and moans or not in the h-scene. This also goes the same in manga and animation, expect regret and depression after doing it, though.

 

[lemonfreak]

I realise this sounds like fence sitting but it really comes down to the way the characters are portrayed. Playing as a character that gets cheated on and ultimately lose their lover is meant to be painful in some fashion; some MCs deserve it though.

Take, for instance, the protag of Swing & Miss. Since this is more of a KN than VN (and very much a Kobayashi Maru situation), you're not really given choices but, nevertheless, the MC makes every wrong decision a person can make and arguably deserves his fate.

So yeah, for me, it's writing, writing, writing. Give the MC the opportunity to avoid NTR or cleverly write so that we, the players, want him (it's always him) to be NTRd. Don't, at least for me, make it all about about undeserved, unavoidable, emotional pain.

 

[Silvsilv]

From my experience, NTR usually either

1) features better art

2) gets me better expressions.

The thing I love is that most often the central theme is that the girls just absolutely LOVE the sex they are getting (and stolen by). Hence, that reflects in the art and presentation of the sex scene. Seeing that absolute bliss on their faces? Shit, gets me going every time.

Since I'm keeping to fictional, non-real NTR I can easily detach from the material if its especially meant to be cheating on YOU (e.g.) as long as the art gives me what I like.

 

[Rythan25]

What I find hilarious is people often overreact to ntr like it's the manifestation of pure evil when there are things worse than that. At the end of the day, it's just another porn trope that adds a twist to cheating.

This to me such a lameass scapegoat... ok enlighten us chief whats worse than NTR ?

Genocide ? Covid-19 pandemic ? world hunger ? you know things that ACTUALLY have an effect in RL ? guess what, those things dont usually surface in VN's because they are entertainment, they arent meant to depress you (most of the time)...

I think the only game that actually showed hints of racism and genocide was actually a NTR game, Bully where the NWBO or whatever wanted to eradicate all whites from the world...

 

[xoxo]

If you have no clue what Netorare is, it's basically cheating or adultery in which the person cheating feels intense shame and distress from it. Netorase is cheating but they like it and are fine with it.

I just want to point out how amazing and on point the OP's description of netorare/netorase is. People should pay more attention to this. I've seen members here writing books trying to describe these two words.

If you like netorare, that's what you like to see - someone cheating someone else with guilt and shame. It doesn't mean rape, it doesn't mean you're a cuck. It doesn't matter if your heart is broken, it doesn't have to make you feel sad, you don't have to feel like/project yourself to the character being cheated on (otherwise the genre would only exist in games and real life).
If you like feeling sad, then your kink is drama/humiliation/sadness or something and NTR is just the vehicle to that.
The work doesn't have to meet your expectations to be a true netor-something, the same way a comedy doesn't stop being a comedy because you didn't laugh.

 

[215303j]

How did you come to this terrible conclusion

Because, to me, NTR is a paradox. If you disconnect and actually want the MC to fail and/or if you are fine with the corruption of the LI by someone else, then it's not NTR anymore. You can call it cheating or cuckolding or whatever but in the end you are fine with what happens to the characters and don't really feel anything except arousal from the sex scene itself, and, maybe from the humiliation if that's your thing.

On the other hand, if I do identify with the MC and/or have feelings for the LI, then I fucking *hate* full-on P-in-V NTR. I guess that, for me, the sweetspot is that there is a real threat of NTR but if you play it right, then you can prevent it.

Now it is not difficult at all to write an NTR scenario, but it is pretty hard to write the characters in such a way that you really do feel the jealousy. Because you need to genuinely care about both the MC and about the LI. Avoidable NTR adds further difficulty because the developer needs to know exactly when to quit (not to soon and certainly not too late) and also to set the right difficulty level. In my opinion, BB did well with regards to the amount of NTR shown and when to quit, in both Lisa plotlines (sex-ed by Eric and foursome with Olivia and the other guy). But BB did poorly with regards to the difficulty level.

The hardest thing to write is vanilla, it requires good writing because the author cannot use fetishes as a crutch.

You may be right there...

 

[Someone]

I'm partially ok with NTR only:
When my character is the one stealing the bitches.
When i play a slutty female character that is dissatisfied with an impotent homo in denial NPC i don't give a shit about.

 

[lemonfreak]

Because, to me, NTR is a paradox. If you disconnect and actually want the MC to fail and/or if you are fine with the corruption of the LI by someone else, then it's not NTR anymore. You can call it cheating or cuckolding or whatever but in the end you are fine with what happens to the characters and don't really feel anything except arousal from the sex scene itself, and, maybe from the humiliation if that's your thing.

On the other hand, if I do identify with the MC and/or have feelings for the LI, then I fucking *hate* full-on P-in-V NTR. I guess that, for me, the sweetspot is that there is a real threat of NTR but if you play it right, then you can prevent it.

Now it is not difficult at all to write an NTR scenario, but it is pretty hard to write the characters in such a way that you really do feel the jealousy. Because you need to genuinely care about both the MC and about the LI. Avoidable NTR adds further difficulty because the developer needs to know exactly when to quit (not to soon and certainly not too late) and also to set the right difficulty level. In my opinion, BB did well with regards to the amount of NTR shown and when to quit, in both Lisa plotlines (sex-ed by Eric and foursome with Olivia and the other guy). But BB did poorly with regards to the difficulty level.

I disagree with that assesment, both of those are NTR in my opinion, the emotions of the player don't change that.

Think of it like this, my elderly father catches Covid 19, goes on a ventilator and recovers. Boris Johnson, the British Prime Minister, catches Covid 19, goes on a ventilator and recovers. The first example is wonderful, the second example is tragic but the situation itself is identical.

 

[jamdan]

To me, NTR is the most misused term on this website by far. My general requirements.

1- A girl doing things with her boyfriend, husband etc. doesn't count. They're in a relationship, what do you expect? Can you be jealous, mad? Sure. But its not NTR, they're doing what people in a relationship do.
2- Flirting and teasing. The only way this can be NTR is if the girl is in a relationship with MC, if she isn't then it doesn't count. Even if she is, it barely qualifies.
3- Dream scenes. Its a dream, it didn't actually happen, it doesn't count. Flashbacks too, now NTR could've happened in that flashback, but it happened in the past, so get over it.
4- Side-girls doing stuff. They aren't LI's, they can do whatever they want.
5- Sharing/Swinging aren't NTR. If you voluntarily share a girl or swing with her, you obviously aren't jealous which defeats the point of NTR.
6- The girl in question needs to either be in a relationship with MC - girlfriend, wife or at the very least be a very close friend of MC. The biggest component of NTR is the loss of a LI, if she isn't yours, you can't lose her. Although if the girl was just your BBF, I'd say you got cucked, not NTR'ed.
7- The MC needs to know about it. If he doesn't know, then its just cheating.

I'd say 9/10 NTR-tagged games on this site are some variation of cheating/swinging/sharing and not actually NTR.

 

[Buddawg]

I disagree with that assesment, both of those are NTR in my opinion, the emotions of the player don't change that.

Think of it like this, my elderly father catches Covid 19, goes on a ventilator and recovers. Boris Johnson, the British Prime Minister, catches Covid 19, goes on a ventilator and recovers. The first example is wonderful, the second example is tragic but the situation itself is identical.

And that is exactly what he talked about, different inputs makes different outputs. If youre invested in someone vs not invested in someone gives you a different outcome.