Ren'Py What a Legend! [v0.7.03] [MagicNuts]

[moskyx]

Wait until this game gets a second round of Code, then it will probably get a third round of polish.

Actually... we are in that third round already.

 

[walker188]

That would have been an outcome that better reflects reality. A project that has not been worked on at all for six months is indeed abandoned. If the devs announced before that six month period that they were back at it again, their 18 month would have started anew. But they couldn't be so cut and dry with reporting their situation, hence their "unabandoning" isn't being given the grace period

Yeah, well. Maybe you should only look for finished games, then? There are many devs who still share that vision, I even 'work' as a translator for a team that has released more than 10 completed games in the last 10 years (with little financial success, mind you, but that would be dragging this discussion onto offtopic zone). The thing is that Patreon works fine enough for those who understand what they are paying for: they are not paying for the final product (although they can subscribe one month just to 'buy' it when it's ready) but to let devs keep working on their games. In WaL's case, it's not even a subscription model, since the game is totally free and Patreon rewards are fairly underwhelming (some spoilery pics, voting rights, and a chance to see your name listed in the game's supporters gallery). Basically, you don't get anything else than the personal satisfaction of supporting someone whose work you appreciate. And sure, it's obvious that when gamedevs manage to get enough support to make this for a living the incentive to actually finish those games is questionable at the very least, but that's what everyone signed up for, and patrons will always have the last word by voting with their wallets.

You mention WaL's devs should have released a completed game first, which is a financial gamble since they wouldn't get a dime until the game was ready to release, so they would have needed to work several years on this hobby while also working on their daily jobs (meaning that none of us would probably know about WaL yet, and chances are we'd never ever knew about it since they could have dropped this 'unborn' project for whatever reason - like having a second child in 2022- to focus on their regular jobs and no one on Earth would have noticed); then take their one-time shot to get as much money from sales as possible, then probably keep working on their daily jobs for some stable monthly income while they sort out the newborn or whatever situation they'd be facing at the time, rinse and repeat. I don't think that's a reasonable choice to make for any family when they have an alternative that allows them to get their somewhat stable monthly income from developing their game, as it happened here when they gained some good traction with the first couple of installments. Patreon actually allowed a talented artist and a decent yet inexperienced writer to leave their jobs and live on their pet project, which is quite a nice thing if you ask me. You are demanding hobbyists to take a professional or even industrial approach, going from one project to the next, hoping their sales would remain high enough to make it worthwhile, but that's neither what this kind of people usually look for, nor what they wish, nor even what they are capable of. If they have more stories to tell and feel like it, they can try their luck with a second project, but some games and stories can be on almost eternal development, much like soap operas.

On another note, WaL devs did let their audience know that the project would be taking a lower priority for some months, and the way they constantly communicate their progress and shortcomings lets people decide when to stop paying them. I guess they could have paused pledges for some months, but around 20% of their supporters back in 2022 have already left by themselves.

The sad fact is that you probably spent more time writing this novel, than Nuts did working on the game this week.

 

[Black Orchid]

Actually... we are in that third round already.

yet you are still here defending them like your life depends on it

 

[Microtom]

You know what this game needs? A higher res remake, summertime saga style. 4k baby, let's go! Extra wide screen!

 

[TheEmo]

 

[moskyx]

yet you are still here defending them like your life depends on it

Don't you realize that being on the third round of polish is actually a good thing? This is their usual workflow, they're back on track and getting closer and closer to that sweet spot where they feel the update is good enough to be released. Just one more month, including external playtesting.

 

[VanillaLover]

Don't you realize that being on the third round of polish is actually a good thing? This is their usual workflow, they're back on track and getting closer and closer to that sweet spot where they feel the update is good enough to be released. Just one more month, including external playtesting.

I have honest trust that this update is gonna push through, but the next ones are gonna either take way too long, or not even happen. These devs are going to be burnt as fuck and as soon as 0.7 comes they'll stop indefinitely.

 

[Finuee]

I have honest trust that this update is gonna push through, but the next ones are gonna either take way too long, or not even happen. These devs are going to be burnt as fuck and as soon as 0.7 comes they'll stop indefinitely.

They're indeed gonna be very burnt out. That's why I think the next update is when it'll become clear if the boat's gonna sink or sail.

 

[moskyx]

I have honest trust that this update is gonna push through, but the next ones are gonna either take way too long, or not even happen. These devs are going to be burnt as fuck and as soon as 0.7 comes they'll stop indefinitely.

Nothing points to that, so far. They already have a rough idea about how they want to tell Holly's story so that it doesn't take too much time to be produced, cutting off the introduction of a couple of new characters (the village's twin sisters and Junior's sister). I'm confident 0.8 will arrive sooner than many people expect

 

[Finuee]

Nothing points to that, so far. They already have a rough idea about how they want to tell Holly's story so that it doesn't take too much time to be produced, cutting off the introduction of a couple of new characters (the village's twin sisters and Junior's sister). I'm confident 0.8 will arrive sooner than many people expect

I really hope you're right.

 

[Finuee]

 

[FreelancerFL]

Don't you realize that being on the third round of polish is actually a good thing? This is their usual workflow, they're back on track and getting closer and closer to that sweet spot where they feel the update is good enough to be released. Just one more month, including external playtesting.

Just one more month
>next month
Just one more month
>two months later
Sorry for real just one more month
>next year

Did they prescribe you copium?

 

[caviarkush1]

Just one more month
>next month
Just one more month
>two months later
Sorry for real just one more month
>next year

Did they prescribe you copium?

He's saying it because of the release date that is set in a months time. Though the devs are apparently a couple days behind.. I feel like it will be early December but let's wait and see

 

[JJohns2049]

He's saying it because of the release date that is set in a months time. Though the devs are apparently a couple days behind.. I feel like it will be early December but let's wait and see

So 2024 isn't gonna make it ?

 

[caviarkush1]

So 2024 isn't gonna make it ?

Depends if it gets delayed and by how much. I can't see them working on the game over Christmas with their kids. They suggest that they haven't had a normal Christmas with their kids because of working on this game but it honestly just sounds like a pity ploy, I doubt they worked much on this game over Christmas the last 2 years.

In their words: "I'm actually happy that there's a deadline and that it looks like this year we'll finally have a proper Christmas."

 

[Gregor909]

maybe just throw in a report to everyone in the patron and let them get banned? it will be much more problematic with the court

 

[Finuee]

Depends if it gets delayed and by how much. I can't see them working on the game over Christmas with their kids. They suggest that they haven't had a normal Christmas with their kids because of working on this game but it honestly just sounds like a pity ploy, I doubt they worked much on this game over Christmas the last 2 years.

In their words: "I'm actually happy that there's a deadline and that it looks like this year we'll finally have a proper Christmas."

Thanks for the info.

 

[Big Green]

Just one more month
>next month
Just one more month
>two months later
Sorry for real just one more month
>next year

Did they prescribe you copium?

He is actually working here for a new dose.

 

[shazba jnr]

Having kids is a challenge indeed, but still it's not an excuse for the cases like WaL.
As a consumer I'd like to buy a finished game and I don't want to wait years for it. Let's just say that Patreon isn't a "fair" system. People spend their monthly 1$ or so and don't really care, it's like a spare change for charity or something. Let's say a project has thousands such customers. It seems devs aren't really obliged to do anything and they're tempted by the Patreon, so they drag their projects through years.
For the average audience of adult gaming stuff there is not many projects to choose from: in many cases it's either hang in production for years or a total garbage. So you either complain on forums or do your own game. A funny situation.

In a perfect world devs would've release a game long ago, then raise a kid until they're able to start a new project with a reasonable life cycle. Or they let the audience know that a project is on hold until they'll be able to work on it again.

I don't believe in "lifetime" projects. The classics of game industry in general are often made by several or even few people within a couple years. The professional game devs, or movie makers, or whatever don't cling on that one product for years. The world has changed like twice since then the most famouse projects here on this site have started. What they waiting for has to be a total atomic annihilation during the Machine war along with an alien invasion, the Second Advent and the Great flood.

This is a consumer problem actually or to rephrase that: a generational problem. People of my age would usually never ever pay for a subscription based thing, unless it yields some effective output. Be that a newspaper, a card for a shop that gives constant bonus etc. Companies quickly figured out that it pays out better in the digital age to run everything as a subscription, as the consumer doesnt effectively get a real product anymore. As long as people's mindset isnt making that distinction, there will be massive downsides with subscription based services and products.

It very much compares to the logic one should apply to gambling: consider every amount used for it 'lost'. If the opposite occurs - be joyful.

Yeah, well. Maybe you should only look for finished games, then? There are many devs who still share that vision, I even 'work' as a translator for a team that has released more than 10 completed games in the last 10 years (with little financial success, mind you, but that would be dragging this discussion onto offtopic zone). The thing is that Patreon works fine enough for those who understand what they are paying for: they are not paying for the final product (although they can subscribe one month just to 'buy' it when it's ready) but to let devs keep working on their games. In WaL's case, it's not even a subscription model, since the game is totally free and Patreon rewards are fairly underwhelming (some spoilery pics, voting rights, and a chance to see your name listed in the game's supporters gallery). Basically, you don't get anything else than the personal satisfaction of supporting someone whose work you appreciate. And sure, it's obvious that when gamedevs manage to get enough support to make this for a living the incentive to actually finish those games is questionable at the very least, but that's what everyone signed up for, and patrons will always have the last word by voting with their wallets.

You mention WaL's devs should have released a completed game first, which is a financial gamble since they wouldn't get a dime until the game was ready to release, so they would have needed to work several years on this hobby while also working on their daily jobs (meaning that none of us would probably know about WaL yet, and chances are we'd never ever knew about it since they could have dropped this 'unborn' project for whatever reason - like having a second child in 2022- to focus on their regular jobs and no one on Earth would have noticed); then take their one-time shot to get as much money from sales as possible, then probably keep working on their daily jobs for some stable monthly income while they sort out the newborn or whatever situation they'd be facing at the time, rinse and repeat. I don't think that's a reasonable choice to make for any family when they have an alternative that allows them to get their somewhat stable monthly income from developing their game, as it happened here when they gained some good traction with the first couple of installments. Patreon actually allowed a talented artist and a decent yet inexperienced writer to leave their jobs and live on their pet project, which is quite a nice thing if you ask me. You are demanding hobbyists to take a professional or even industrial approach, going from one project to the next, hoping their sales would remain high enough to make it worthwhile, but that's neither what this kind of people usually look for, nor what they wish, nor even what they are capable of. If they have more stories to tell and feel like it, they can try their luck with a second project, but some games and stories can be on almost eternal development, much like soap operas.

On another note, WaL devs did let their audience know that the project would be taking a lower priority for some months, and the way they constantly communicate their progress and shortcomings lets people decide when to stop paying them. I guess they could have paused pledges for some months, but around 20% of their supporters back in 2022 have already left by themselves.

I often find that moskyx's replies come across as a biased, involved fan, but in this case I agree 100%.

After Patreon takes their cut, and the taxman takes his, the WaL developers are left with about €4K. That's a good family salary in Spain, and it allows them to work full time on this game.

If they were to wait until it was finished before collecting a dime, they wouldn't be able to work full time on it since they'd die of starvation without an income, so they get a different job, and work after hours on the game and it would taking fucking way longer to come out.

Also if they were to finish the game, then put earning on hold while they raise a kid, the kid would die of starvation too while they burn through their savings and run out of cash trying to raise the li'l cunt (term of endearment of course). Unless one of them gets a fulltime job and they end up just like everyone else.

Patreon allows people to create all sorts of stuff and be supported while doing it. If people don't want what they're creating, people don't support it. If nobody supports it, the creator stops creating (unless it's a hobby and they're just having fun).

There are cases where some of the big earners stop producing (or significantly slow down, or start doing "tech updates ") and it's clear they're taking money for nothing, or just bullshit.

But in the end, who gives a real fuck? I don't care if other people get paid to do fuck all. I don't care about the money people waste on products that have started milking them.

What we get is a slew of pretty cool games that we can play from time to time.

Of course it's fun to hang shit on the developers for not delivery fast enough, and it's easy to sit back and criticise, but good luck to them I say, and hopefully this fucking orc episode isn't shit!

 

[Finuee]

I often find that moskyx's replies come across as a biased, involved fan, but in this case I agree 100%.

After Patreon takes their cut, and the taxman takes his, the WaL developers are left with about €4K. That's a good family salary in Spain, and it allows them to work full time on this game.

If they were to wait until it was finished before collecting a dime, they wouldn't be able to work full time on it since they'd die of starvation without an income, so they get a different job, and work after hours on the game and it would taking fucking way longer to come out.

Also if they were to finish the game, then put earning on hold while they raise a kid, the kid would die of starvation too while they burn through their savings and run out of cash trying to raise the li'l cunt (term of endearment of course). Unless one of them gets a fulltime job and they end up just like everyone else.

Patreon allows people to create all sorts of stuff and be supported while doing it. If people don't want what they're creating, people don't support it. If nobody supports it, the creator stops creating (unless it's a hobby and they're just having fun).

There are cases where some of the big earners stop producing (or significantly slow down, or start doing "tech updates ") and it's clear they're taking money for nothing, or just bullshit.

But in the end, who gives a real fuck? I don't care if other people get paid to do fuck all. I don't care about the money people waste on products that have started milking them.

What we get is a slew of pretty cool games that we can play from time to time.

Of course it's fun to hang shit on the developers for not delivery fast enough, and it's easy to sit back and criticise, but good luck to them I say, and hopefully this fucking orc episode isn't shit!

You've summarized a lot of what I think on the topic, so I'll just say I mostly agree with you. I'm generally not a fan of the subscription model in general, but this is one of the cases where it makes sense and allows us to have some great indie games that wouldn't otherwise exist.