VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[BobTheDuck]

Look its nothing on you or anyone else. We can simultaneously talk about things we enjoy with game and criticize the dev's work ethnic, it needn't be taboo. If you look at my post history on this thread, I've done both, talked about game content and the dev's practices. But cmon, I feel like commenting he's slow is like saying water is wet, it's not contentious or seeking to argue.

My take is you are right, balance is good. But commenting that water is wet is not a hot take. I guess we're all just frustrated hoping for some actual news right now. However, Ocean is responsible for keeping his patrons engaged; if he can keep them engaged, we'll continue to see updates, regardless of when. If he has *great success!* on steam with SG, we'll probably see faster updates from both. Given that Ocean has been currently rendering both ch 3.5 and 4 for WiaB when he said he was delaying WiaB until after SG season 1 says to me he's keen to keep moving, he's enjoying his new hardware and he's keen to show people what happens next.

Another water is wet thing: Ocean is a perfectionist who overthinks. When I play the end result (ie a new WiaB update) I can't tell how many renders never got seen by players because Ocean was unhappy with the results. All I get is the update, and it's engaging (to me). My point (if I have one) is that after something is released, we only see the end result, which is the tip of the iceberg. Ocean's overthinking is both an asset and a curse. We only have the smallest window into his dev process. It's all part and parcel; the game wouldn't be the same if OCean wasn't the person he is - Ocean actually has to over think (and not just be a person in front of a computer churning out renders) to personalise the character's mannerisms to be convincing. So as much as his VN's are a 'product', they'll never be released on time if they don't meet the standard he's set. THere are too many VN's where the characters have 100% identical mannerisms, it's so obvious that the narrator is talking and the characters are puppets. Ocean's at least managed to develop the personalities of his characters a bit more, probably by over thinking whether they like sweet or spicy.

Frustrating, but after each release I find more reasons to be patient to see how it turns out.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

You know bro, to me, a bad work ethic looks like a yellow "abandoned" badge next to a game's title while its developer has changed their username (or even kept the old one) and started working on something else, or disappeared without a trace, or could not cope with the difficulties along the way and gave up.

I also like digging into numbers. And you know, Ocean creates approximately 4000 static renders (counting both games) per year. And in the past years, only a few devs were able to achieve similar quality of renders, but in the recent year more games have appeared with rendering quality quite close to Ocean's.

But they can't yet come close to his number of static renders. 4K per year is much more than these ~200-300 renders in 2-3 months of regular updates from the devs who I was referred to as an example of the right approach to the game development.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against these devs, I enjoy their games. But personally, in these games, I save updates for a year before playing, because such small updates are just annoying and ruin the experience of even a great game.

And maybe I'm wrong, but I've read in your statement a bit of envy about the 4 times better system specs.
But it wasn't a godsend for him, bro. Just imagine the amount of crap they dumped on him when he was writing for many months in dev logs about the bottlenecks in his current hardware, how he dealt with them, and his plans to upgrade. "What the hell, the current hardware is enough, I’m already tired of his whining about need of the new hardware. It would be better if he thought about adding my favorite furry content (or whatever they demanded then) than to be distracted by some irrelevant nonsense."

So yes, he is investing a certain share of his revenue into a top notch hardware. In my book, this looks like a pro point for the dev.

Either way, it's great that you're going to make a game yourself. It will be interesting to read about your experience if you decide to share it. Who knows, maybe you can do better and other developers can learn a thing or two from ya.

Envy isn't the right word, perhaps jealousy, but more disdain. There are many active devs who have much inferior setups to his and slave away month after month, grinding out 20-30 min renders just to amass enough to call an honest update. And they keep producing. It's disrespectful to them to treat him otherwise(particularly because he keeps talking about it, you dont need a6000s bro, you need to spend a few weekends posing and rendering).

Another water is wet thing: Ocean is a perfectionist who overthinks. When I play the end result (ie a new WiaB update) I can't tell how many renders never got seen by players because Ocean was unhappy with the results. All I get is the update, and it's engaging (to me). My point (if I have one) is that after something is released, we only see the end result, which is the tip of the iceberg. Ocean's overthinking is both an asset and a curse. We only have the smallest window into his dev process. It's all part and parcel; the game wouldn't be the same if OCean wasn't the person he is - Ocean actually has to over think (and not just be a person in front of a computer churning out renders) to personalise the character's mannerisms to be convincing. So as much as his VN's are a 'product', they'll never be released on time if they don't meet the standard he's set. THere are too many VN's where the characters have 100% identical mannerisms, it's so obvious that the narrator is talking and the characters are puppets. Ocean's at least managed to develop the personalities of his characters a bit more, probably by over thinking whether they like sweet or spicy.

Frustrating, but after each release I find more reasons to be patient to see how it turns out.

For sure I can see the perfectionist, but that's not a good thing. Any college class I had a failing semester in wasn't one of disinterest, but rather spending time trying to reinvent the wheel instead of just going through the (admittedly less engaging) drudgery in front of me. That's part of life, that's part of work. He has the tools, he has the talent, he just needs to produce.


Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go post a fan art in another thread for which I spent the last 4 hours on perfecting a dforce prop

 

[yossa999]

Envy isn't the right word, perhaps jealousy, but more disdain. There are many active devs who have much inferior setups to his and slave away month after month, grinding out 20-30 min renders just to amass enough to call an honest update. And they keep producing. It's disrespectful to them to treat him otherwise(particularly because he keeps talking about it, you dont need a6000s bro, you need to spend a few weekends posing and rendering).

The only thing that resonates with me in this post of yours is that indeed, many developers who work hard from month to month and put their soul into their games, unfortunately, often find themselves so undervalued that they have to abandon their projects.

But other than that, I think you're wrong on so many levels that I don't even want to go into detail. Just a couple of rhetorical questions.
Why did you get the idea that Ocean isn't busting his ass working on his games? Or that he put less efforts in his work then he should.
Why do you believe that the recognition he gets is undeserved compared to these brilliant active devs with inferior setups?

You know, I skim through the new games quite often. To my taste, 90% of them are unspeakable shit, not even worthy of mentioning.
But I'm pretty sure that at least half of these games were serious attempts to create something worthwhile and their authors put a lot of work and effort into it. I just don't like the result. Do you think I should raid their threads, write one star reviews, and give them ten pages of shit about what crappy their games are, what lazy milkers devs of these games are, and how their games don't have the furry content that is so precious to my heart?

 

[BobTheDuck]

The only thing that resonates with me in this post of yours is that indeed, many developers who work hard from month to month and put their soul into their games, unfortunately, often find themselves so undervalued that they have to abandon their projects.

But other than that, I think you're wrong on so many levels that I don't even want to go into detail. Just a couple of rhetorical questions.
Why did you get the idea that Ocean isn't busting his ass working on his games? Or that he put less efforts in his work then he should.
Why do you believe that the recognition he gets is undeserved compared to these brilliant active devs with inferior setups?

You know, I skim through the new games quite often. To my taste, 90% of them are unspeakable shit, not even worthy of mentioning.
But I'm pretty sure that at least half of these games were serious attempts to create something worthwhile and their authors put a lot of work and effort into it. I just don't like the result. Do you think I should raid their threads, write one star reviews, and give them ten pages of shit about what crappy their games are, what lazy milkers devs of these games are, and how their games don't have the furry content that is so precious to my heart?

And, lets be honest, there are plenty of completed games that have fewer renders than a single update of either of Ocean's games. Given Ocean is pushing his hardware with more models for each render than most games, he's doing a lot of work. Plus all the abandoned renders: multiple versions of Willi until Ocean settled on something (that didn't look like a meth addict, failed hollywood romcom guy or rockabilly Elvis wannabe washout). The multiple ideas for Scarlet, then repurposing Scarlet as Amber's friend. Remaking and heavily customising models for basically all of the characters in both games. Also, dealing with contracts rather than just going for free unlicensed music. Professional development. Whether all of this is necessary isn't something I can decide for anyone. I like the outcome of a better game. I was scratching my head at the old WiaB when scenes appeared out of nowhere, now most elements have a consistent approach.

I'm not going to judge a person's process, only their output. I don't lose money by waiting, just hair. If Ocean could render me some of Willi or Nika's hair to replace mine while I wait for updates, that'd be great.

 

[Maviarab]

This thread had been so nice too for the last fewd days *sighs*.....

 

[Euron13]

Well as a change of pace, let me tell you all a story about a velveteen rabbit...

 

[Maviarab]

Ehhh...time for some loveliness!

 

[BobTheDuck]

I didn't say she was a virgin...I just got that impression...

I had a thought about this. Leia is characterised by jealousy when it comes to Willi; I wonder how far her hypocrisy goes? If she kept herself a virgin, she's a hypocrite for saying that Katie couldn't seduce anyone, and doubly so for the way she pimps out her employees. If she's not, then her treatment of Willi's disappearance is hypocrisy because she has also abandoned him. She can't keep accussing him of having left if she'd moved on, and if she hasn't moved on, well Katie's had more recent relationships than Leia, especially considering she'd bi. I think this is why I dislike her - Leia has a massive double standard either way in order to defend her version of the story, so she can be the victim and the only right person. Willi does admit he did wrong on many occasions and is trying to grow, so I'm much more sympathetic to a jerk trying to reform himself than someone who gets people to call her princess.

Also, rumours about Willi and Leia were rife - from the scene with Dana:

da "Do you know what the people said after you vanished?"
d "Mh?"
da "They said that you and Leia had a relationship and your parents found out and kicked you out."
scene af1489 with dssa
"You raise a brow."
scene af1490 with dssr
da "The rumors the people spread were brutal."
da "Leia broke more than just one nose..."

This kinda supports the idea that what Katie was threatening was something that Willi didn't want Leia to know. Dylan and Helen would have understood that Leia's depression/anorexia wasn't simplely from missing her twin as they nursed her. Of course, Katie could have seeded the rumours, but if we believe she didn't tell Dylan and Helen, and didn't tell 'her', then chances are she wasn't spreading rumours either. I'd guess the rumours were organic or from someone like Mon, who is openly hostile with reason, wondering why (dare I say it) she was dumped two ways on the same night.

 

[Maviarab]

I had a thought about this. Leia is characterised by jealousy when it comes to Willi; I wonder how far her hypocrisy goes? If she kept herself a virgin, she's a hypocrite for saying that Katie couldn't seduce anyone, and doubly so for the way she pimps out her employees. If she's not, then her treatment of Willi's disappearance is hypocrisy because she has also abandoned him. She can't keep accussing him of having left if she'd moved on, and if she hasn't moved on, well Katie's had more recent relationships than Leia, especially considering she'd bi. I think this is why I dislike her - Leia has a massive double standard either way in order to defend her version of the story, so she can be the victim and the only right person. Willi does admit he did wrong on many occasions and is trying to grow, so I'm much more sympathetic to a jerk trying to reform himself than someone who gets people to call her princess.

For sure...she a walking box of issues currently.

Also, rumours about Willi and Leia were rife - from the scene with Dana:

da "Do you know what the people said after you vanished?"
d "Mh?"
da "They said that you and Leia had a relationship and your parents found out and kicked you out."
scene af1489 with dssa
"You raise a brow."
scene af1490 with dssr
da "The rumors the people spread were brutal."
da "Leia broke more than just one nose..."

This kinda supports the idea that what Katie was threatening was something that Willi didn't want Leia to know. Dylan and Helen would have understood that Leia's depression/anorexia wasn't simplely from missing her twin as they nursed her. Of course, Katie could have seeded the rumours, but if we believe she didn't tell Dylan and Helen, and didn't tell 'her', then chances are she wasn't spreading rumours either. I'd guess the rumours were organic or from someone like Mon, who is openly hostile with reason, wondering why (dare I say it) she was dumped two ways on the same night.

YEah...would be nice to confirm who 'her' is...but I don't think katie did anything (and not just because I simp for her hahaha). Just doesn't seem in her character all. Again, I refer back to all the trouble..it was always Willi/Leia....Willi/Katie seemed to get along just fine (usual sibling stuff aside)...

I just don't see her doing it...and even when Katie is super evil towards us....that's only present day...we start the 'war' (in both versions), not Katie. Sure, she escalates it...but only due to something we originally did. As for rumours in general, they are easily started. I mean let's look at what we know, Willi and Leia were glued at the hip by all accounts most of the time...the thing with Mon happens...Willi high tails it...Leia goes into depressive slump...you can see how easily shit would run rampant through town can't you....

 

[BobTheDuck]

For sure...she a walking box of issues currently.

YEah...would be nice to confirm who 'her' is...but I don't think katie did anything (and not just because I simp for her hahaha). Just doesn't seem in her character all. Again, I refer back to all the trouble..it was always Willi/Leia....Willi/Katie seemed to get along just fine (usual sibling stuff aside)...

I just don't see her doing it...and even when Katie is super evil towards us....that's only present day...we start the 'war' (in both versions), not Katie. Sure, she escalates it...but only due to something we originally did. As for rumours in general, they are easily started. I mean let's look at what we know, Willi and Leia were glued at the hip by all accounts most of the time...the thing with Mon happens...Willi high tails it...Leia goes into depressive slump...you can see how easily shit would run rampant through town can't you....

Exactly, so I'm thinking as Katie didn't tell anyone, potentially it's something between them that they did, and it's why Willi thinks she's capable of the most evil plans maybe? I mean it would be further down the line in the plot, but what if we find out the gang leader is one of the bullies Willi got illegal revenge on, or the religious group is headed by one of them, and they're out for revenge? I think the focus as been on their relationship which was an open rumour, and Willi seemed pretty blasé about it at the time - maybe the relationship itself is a bit of a red herring - that is, it's not as important as the actual reason Willi left.

 

[Maviarab]

Exactly, so I'm thinking as Katie didn't tell anyone, potentially it's something between them that they did, and it's why Willi thinks she's capable of the most evil plans maybe? I mean it would be further down the line in the plot, but what if we find out the gang leader is one of the bullies Willi got illegal revenge on, or the religious group is headed by one of them, and they're out for revenge? I think the focus as been on their relationship which was an open rumour, and Willi seemed pretty blasé about it at the time - maybe the relationship itself is a bit of a red herring - that is, it's not as important as the actual reason Willi left.

Hmmmmm

At this point anything is possible I guess heh...and we should factor in how much of the original Willi/Leia relationship still exists now in the rework? Maybe that can only be answered properly in the next couple of updates...

 

[BobTheDuck]

Hmmmmm

At this point anything is possible I guess heh...and we should factor in how much of the original Willi/Leia relationship still exists now in the rework? Maybe that can only be answered properly in the next couple of updates...

I think we can discount the original Leia a fair bit: at Reluccia, she was pretty much a standard horny DAZ model except for her look. She shifted from cold to clingy pretty quickly. I dislike her now, but she's a much more real and consistent personality; her conflicted desires don't come across as whims now. Katie seems mostly the same, but a touch sweeter, less bratty. She blames Willi for leaving almost as often as Leia, which shows how much she does want him in her life. Previous Katie didn't want to give WIlli a chance, while new Katie keeps forcing herself to distrust him. Also, old Willi was definitely into Leia, new Willi doesn't seem as smitten, but more regretful of all the time that's past and and that's been broken by his mistakes.

So yeah, those updates

 

[Maviarab]

I think we can discount the original Leia a fair bit: at Reluccia, she was pretty much a standard horny DAZ model except for her look. She shifted from cold to clingy pretty quickly. I dislike her now, but she's a much more real and consistent personality; her conflicted desires don't come across as whims now. Katie seems mostly the same, but a touch sweeter, less bratty. She blames Willi for leaving almost as often as Leia, which shows how much she does want him in her life. Previous Katie didn't want to give WIlli a chance, while new Katie keeps forcing herself to distrust him. Also, old Willi was definitely into Leia, new Willi doesn't seem as smitten, but more regretful of all the time that's past and and that's been broken by his mistakes.

So yeah, those updates

Well I was never a huge Leia fan before anyway heh..even less so now...I do think however she is far more interesting as a character though, if she starts to mellow than I may soften on her, though maybe Ocean going to go with the love/hate stuff with her now..one minute she'll be nice and getting on her knees and the next while she down there she'll kneecap us rofl.

 

[Zeniks1895]

I had a thought about this. Leia is characterised by jealousy when it comes to Willi; I wonder how far her hypocrisy goes? If she kept herself a virgin, she's a hypocrite for saying that Katie couldn't seduce anyone, and doubly so for the way she pimps out her employees. If she's not, then her treatment of Willi's disappearance is hypocrisy because she has also abandoned him. She can't keep accussing him of having left if she'd moved on, and if she hasn't moved on, well Katie's had more recent relationships than Leia, especially considering she'd bi. I think this is why I dislike her - Leia has a massive double standard either way in order to defend her version of the story, so she can be the victim and the only right person. Willi does admit he did wrong on many occasions and is trying to grow, so I'm much more sympathetic to a jerk trying to reform himself than someone who gets people to call her princess.

Also, rumours about Willi and Leia were rife - from the scene with Dana:

da "Do you know what the people said after you vanished?"
d "Mh?"
da "They said that you and Leia had a relationship and your parents found out and kicked you out."
scene af1489 with dssa
"You raise a brow."
scene af1490 with dssr
da "The rumors the people spread were brutal."
da "Leia broke more than just one nose..."

This kinda supports the idea that what Katie was threatening was something that Willi didn't want Leia to know. Dylan and Helen would have understood that Leia's depression/anorexia wasn't simplely from missing her twin as they nursed her. Of course, Katie could have seeded the rumours, but if we believe she didn't tell Dylan and Helen, and didn't tell 'her', then chances are she wasn't spreading rumours either. I'd guess the rumours were organic or from someone like Mon, who is openly hostile with reason, wondering why (dare I say it) she was dumped two ways on the same night.

If she's a virgin then what she said to Katie doesn't make her a hypocrite. Leia knows she's good looking plus she's self-confident enough to think she can seduce anyone. She just doesn't need to since she's only interested in our protagonist. She sees her female employees as useful tools to achieve her goals and uses them accordingly, I don't understand how this makes her a hypocrite. However, if she is not a virgin then her attitude towards William is really quite hypocritical. Actually the fact that she wasn't a virgin in the previous version is quite strange and illogical, given all her obsession with the protagonist. I could totally understand if Katie already had some experience but in Leia's case it's weird and doesn't fit her character. I hope that in the new version Ocean will correct this unfortunate misunderstanding.

 

[BobTheDuck]

If she's a virgin then what she said to Katie doesn't make her a hypocrite. Leia knows she's good looking plus she's self-confident enough to think she can seduce anyone. She just doesn't need to since she's only interested in our protagonist. She sees her female employees as useful tools to achieve her goals and uses them accordingly, I don't understand how this makes her a hypocrite. However, if she is not a virgin then her attitude towards William is really quite hypocritical. Actually the fact that she wasn't a virgin in the previous version is quite strange and illogical, given all her obsession with the protagonist. I could totally understand if Katie already had some experience but in Leia's case it's weird and doesn't fit her character. I hope that in the new version Ocean will correct this unfortunate misunderstanding.

You're right, hypocrite is the wrong term for if she's a virgin. Saying that Katie can't seduce anyone while Katie is having relationships while Leia isn't is maybe just gaslighting? Nonsensical? Illogical? Something that doesn't flatter Leia in any regard. Asking people to do and act in ways that you haven't/don't in the case of the girls might not exactly be hypocritical, but again it's certainly not a flattering look.

 

[Zeniks1895]

You're right, hypocrite is the wrong term for if she's a virgin. Saying that Katie can't seduce anyone while Katie is having relationships while Leia isn't is maybe just gaslighting? Nonsensical? Illogical? Something that doesn't flatter Leia in any regard. Asking people to do and act in ways that you haven't/don't in the case of the girls might not exactly be hypocritical, but again it's certainly not a flattering look.

It was illogical (given that she has a girlfriend and that we ourselves saw some worm hit on her in the bar), unfair and humiliating, but not hypocritical. We will still have the opportunity to fix the relationship between them(at least that was the case in the previous version). In addition, I believe we will have the opportunity to change Leia's behaviour for the better (for example, in the last chapter we can tell her to be nicer to Monica, that's a start). In general I agree with you, at this point in time her behaviour is unacceptable.

 

[Maviarab]

It was illogical (given that she has a girlfriend and that we ourselves saw some worm hit on her in the bar), unfair and humiliating, but not hypocritical. We will still have the opportunity to fix the relationship between them(at least that was the case in the previous version). In addition, I believe we will have the opportunity to change Leia's behaviour for the better (for example, in the last chapter we can tell her to be nicer to Monica, that's a start). In general I agree with you, at this point in time her behaviour is unacceptable.

We can certainly fix it. Their story/backdrop...which for me, 'is' the story...everything else, drugs, gangs etc is just a backdrop. We already know she a LI...it's just really now how we actually get to that point and whether it will be more divisive or loving/romantic in nature.

 

[BulgariAMARA]

Wow. I found this game for the first time today, I liked the game and the music too. Guys, maybe I made the wrong choice in the game, and that's why I had so few sex scenes, or are there really few of them in the game?
There are a lot of interesting tags in this game and they are completely unrealized. For a game that is more than five years old, this is bad.
Please tell me, does it make sense to download the old version of the game or is it not necessary?

 

[BobTheDuck]

Wow. I found this game for the first time today, I liked the game and the music too. Guys, maybe I made the wrong choice in the game, and that's why I had so few sex scenes, or are there really few of them in the game?
There are a lot of interesting tags in this game and they are completely unrealized. For a game that is more than five years old, this is bad.
Please tell me, does it make sense to download the old version of the game or is it not necessary?

There are only a couple of sex scenes in the current game, which was reworked completely from scratch at the end of 2021, since then you have development of 1 chapter released a year roughly. Ocean's games are meant to be a slow burn, where the sex scenes are part of the story, not the main point. The plot of the story will develop more content, but there are over 20 chapters planned. Do not expect the story to suddenly explode with lewd scenes in the next release. They have to make sense in the context of the story.

The old version is now a curiousity - you can download an play it to get an idea of what kind of content there might be in the future of the current game. Keep in mind that the old game is no longer canon, and Ocean is able to change whatever he didn't like about the old version (new Miru is grateful to be reworked!), including plot details. The basic story is very similar as are the characters, but the old version is more a traditional AVN in style, while the current version is more cinematic in aesthetic.

At least half the development time has been scrapped because 6 chapters worth of work have been scrapped as a false start.

 

[Juicer97]

This and summer's gone is a 20 year development cycle game. I wonder how many graphical iterations this will undergo in the future.