- Jul 12, 2020
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- Sep 3, 2020
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Very interesting exchange between BobTheDuck and LHDLLB ... It's nice to read so much passion in trying to make sense of a lot of things that are a ToS away from changing.
In my case I prefer to analyze the canon issue from real life, as the in-game story has been shown to have nothing assured.
The old mentions to the canon issue said that Ocean, as he himself said, is that all the stories that followed after WIAB were built by a canon path and ending (he even said that it was a good ending). As time went on, Ocean opted for “immovable elements” (which we all have as an example Ayua), things that happen in all possible routes regardless of the ending obtained. Even in his approach to exporting saves he talked about enriching the dialogues of SG with the chosen LI (thus implying that no ending is significant, only the elements he takes to tell the next story are significant).
Given that real life got in the way, much of this should no longer be taken into account, I think. Today any canon element involving William and Leia is dangerous for the survival of both projects.
- I would like to elaborate a bit more about some points, the bloodline, I fully agree with Bob, not only is it necessary to establish where they come from (who were William and Leia's biological parents) but it must be believable in their own universe. Leaving such a fundamental piece of information in the dark would come too close to harming SG for ToS (patreon already uses everything as proof, even our crazy theories). A comic book writer from my country, whom I admire a lot used to say “you have to know everything about your character, if he sleeps on the left or right side, if he drinks mate, if he drinks mate sweet, what team he is a fan of? everything... even if you never use it”.
-Leia, I agree with Bob again... everything makes me think that Leia is a volcano in continuous eruption, from the chats with old friends to Emilio's words...
-Daphne... she only gets the benefit of the doubt, interpreting her as an interesting character just because of the lack of real development is not to my taste.
-William... WIAB seems to have a parodic and absurd tone, so any definition about William is at least hasty... is he that genius who escaped and was not found? or is he that idiot of the spiders' plan? is he the supreme strategist who notices Donna from the beginning or the one who together with Katie passed for idiots for not knowing about the farm? There is a lot to be said in this section, and now we have to add the mystery of his biological family
And last but not least, I once read that season 1 of SG ended up being the way it is because of the need to weave history between already established points, I get the feeling that is what always happens, OCean advances, realizes something and tries to solve with retcon weaving explanations to serve him in the past linking with the present and that fits with the future he wants... That, my friends, is attentive to the general quality, but above all it is attentive to the theories about the canon.
In my case I prefer to analyze the canon issue from real life, as the in-game story has been shown to have nothing assured.
The old mentions to the canon issue said that Ocean, as he himself said, is that all the stories that followed after WIAB were built by a canon path and ending (he even said that it was a good ending). As time went on, Ocean opted for “immovable elements” (which we all have as an example Ayua), things that happen in all possible routes regardless of the ending obtained. Even in his approach to exporting saves he talked about enriching the dialogues of SG with the chosen LI (thus implying that no ending is significant, only the elements he takes to tell the next story are significant).
Given that real life got in the way, much of this should no longer be taken into account, I think. Today any canon element involving William and Leia is dangerous for the survival of both projects.
- I would like to elaborate a bit more about some points, the bloodline, I fully agree with Bob, not only is it necessary to establish where they come from (who were William and Leia's biological parents) but it must be believable in their own universe. Leaving such a fundamental piece of information in the dark would come too close to harming SG for ToS (patreon already uses everything as proof, even our crazy theories). A comic book writer from my country, whom I admire a lot used to say “you have to know everything about your character, if he sleeps on the left or right side, if he drinks mate, if he drinks mate sweet, what team he is a fan of? everything... even if you never use it”.
-Leia, I agree with Bob again... everything makes me think that Leia is a volcano in continuous eruption, from the chats with old friends to Emilio's words...
-Daphne... she only gets the benefit of the doubt, interpreting her as an interesting character just because of the lack of real development is not to my taste.
-William... WIAB seems to have a parodic and absurd tone, so any definition about William is at least hasty... is he that genius who escaped and was not found? or is he that idiot of the spiders' plan? is he the supreme strategist who notices Donna from the beginning or the one who together with Katie passed for idiots for not knowing about the farm? There is a lot to be said in this section, and now we have to add the mystery of his biological family
And last but not least, I once read that season 1 of SG ended up being the way it is because of the need to weave history between already established points, I get the feeling that is what always happens, OCean advances, realizes something and tries to solve with retcon weaving explanations to serve him in the past linking with the present and that fits with the future he wants... That, my friends, is attentive to the general quality, but above all it is attentive to the theories about the canon.
- May 20, 2022
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Are you implying that Ayua is fat?
Nonsense aside, I agree with Sorco and Bob regarding the "bloodline" and "Leia"
- Aug 16, 2022
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In line with what I've been saying, I'll just add that Ayua is one surname change away from being this "constant" or "immovable element" that binds the canon of SG and WiAB together. Noji went from Cyrus to Miyazaki from one update to the next with no explanation. The same could happen to Ayua. And if it does then she literally becomes insignificant to the overarching plot that unites both stories. She is only relevant for however long she remains a Zane.
- Jul 12, 2020
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Nope...no one know anything...
There was also no devLog posted 3 fecking days and 4 pages ago either...nope...nadda...nuffin...nothing to see here....please move on....
- Dec 24, 2018
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As mentioned, sarch the thread for the devlogs, they happen every two weeks, usually on a Thursday. Kind members leak them for us.
- Dec 24, 2018
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Bob...do I really need to tell you again?
See? Family photos, no landlords involved, it's au naturale
Touching only a couple of points, as you made excellent observations.
- the bloodlines and the timelines need to make sense. If they don't, they will always be the suspicion from the payment vendors that be that something has southern spice. The earlier the reveal, the more Ocean can focus on the circumstantial drama of the story events, and most importantly, the less retconning that is required. Get it done now, change the script and move forward, otherwise it stays in limbo, hoping it'll limp past the inquisitors. That does also seem to be Ocean's plan.
- I think both William and Leia have the same pathos, very much the greek tragedy. If not a Greek tragedy, they probably want to quote Hamlet aloud at odd moments. I think this is partially intentional - the days of our lives style acts as a good cover for the seriousness that exists.
- The big point - stitching a new theme over the old fabric. Ocean had decent success with SG, but much was lost or changed becauseit's all interwoven. Point A get's to point C via point W and D; Ocean missed some of th important connections of aesthetics while retconning the script. I have hopes that he's taken the time to seriously consider these issues, I imagine there's been a few WiaB dev weeks where he's made no renders, just sat with coffee an tried 20 or 40 different plots to see what is the most convincing retcon. I highly hope he didn't drink wine, or eat pizza while doing it.
Also, I apologise, too much wine tonight, if I spell 'a' right, I consider it success!
- Jul 12, 2020
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That would be such an awesome scene...a slightly too much wine Will...shirtless....wandering the house...quoting Hamlet (and doing appropriate poses)...
Then we can switch to the 'wtf' look from a semi clad Katie
Priceless comedy gold right there and would actually fit into the current story lol.
- May 20, 2022
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- Dec 24, 2018
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That's some Willi Shakeshispear material right there!
- Jul 12, 2020
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- Oct 3, 2019
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- Not of the published chapters, no. But I find it fundamentally changes a lot of the story having them being related to the antagonist. I am not saying it is bad, just that might be more work than it is worthy, for Ocean even, if he already has the game written down, to go and change more of it. I find more simpler/easier to have their real parents being close friend of the Zanes or Dylan and Helen having trouble to conceive and option for adoption, something that would not require more rewrites even of content that was not yet launched.- It wouldn't require changes of the published script, because we know nothing about it yet. Also, it's all rather odd because we don't see the cause, only the results. Hopefully the cause makes sense.
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- The Daphne thing, we don't know what happened either, I merely mentioned in the previous version there was conflict over the first girl he met. Maybe Daphne was the first girl he met, and that's why she's still holding out for him, maybe she's the one who helped him through prison now? We don't know if Willi met Miru in prison or not any more, we can only make assumptions. I think Ocean's repurposed the role of Willi's first friend outside of Wollust and made Daphne's role out of that, but who knows what plot she has? So far her role is generally just being awesome at a distance
- I think the Leia buns could still have import. I mean maybe not as Nami says "it's only a hairstyle", but even there it has meaning - she's doing it to emulate Summer to draw Nika's eye. So in the same way, maybe there is meaning, to draw our attention to links, even if red herrings. The bibi word and earrings are important to show the links in SG to WiaB though, that is very clear. Also, with the earrings, splitting them up shows that it was premeditated who would get them. This isn't someone randomly chucking away their earrings. The decided to give them to two separate people.
- About outcomes. Some people knowing there is a 'sequel' and having played the sequel first will hate that they know certain things. Other people will see the connections as easter eggs. This is only a problem because Ocean is developing the seconf game at the same time as the first. I actually like it and have no problem with knowing things Willi doesn't. I got a thrill seeing Emilio in WiaB, and now I know things Nika doesn't. Playing WiaB tells me things about SG and vice versa, so I enjoy the sleuthing of it, seeing how the pieces come together. The problem is as you say - if you deny Miru sex the whole time, certain characters don't make sense. I can do that as a gameplay choice, but it defeats Ocean's intent of having the two stories dovetail. Ultimately people can enjoy the games they way they wish.
The problem lies with inconsistency between the experience of the shared universe, so players of only one or the other game will be content. people playing both and seeing both as two halves to a whole end up making choices influenced by the other game, and that can lessen the elements of risk. This is more an observation of why the co-development is a difficult problem. Think about it when we're in season 4 of both games - OCean has to frogleap with revelations between games to avoid giving away the pinnacle of his stories accidentally.
- I have talked about it, I think that Miru and William at the prison still existis, at least I am prone to believe so based on the farm exchange. Regarding Daphne role before and during the game events, is really hard to say, maybe is related to her family, maybe to her profession, I can not even see how she can go to Wollust. But is one of the characters that I am most curious about.
- I see your reasoning regarding the buns, even if I don't completely agree with your Nami take. I just meant that Leia using them might not means a connections with Summer. The games have change so much, either by Ocean or outside forces, that I think of the OG more of a first draft, ideas putted on a page, it may lead somewhere down the line I an just discouraged to look at them much deeper. Earrings. That is why I am left to wonder if there is something that connects Nami and Sasha, and given who it belonged to, what was Leia reasoning.
- Sadly I don't think that there is much Ocean can do about that. Then is on the player if he will wait WiaB be over to start SG, I like playing both games at the same time, but my experience will be at times be lessened by it, knowing how some thing will end, but enriched at times also, Emilio showing up at WiaB completely changed SG. Regarding frogleaping, while it can add to the story it also can very much damaged it, if he has problem with releases and say has to hold SG for 2 updates as to not ruin the WiaB experience, sundely frog leaping become a minefield of plot points.
The issue of the canon in real life is that I have no way of knowing what passes trought Ocean head. The decision he made still puzzles me to no end, the more I think about it the less sense it made and for each angle I look at it another problem comes to sight. The story though shows me a little of what his intent is. Next chapter will tell me with direction he is going and how far from the original it will be. Regaring "Imoveable Element". The question then becomes how many ? and how they will be enforced on the story. If ABCandD will happen regardless of our choices we get to choose how William respond to them ? will he embrace the mob lifestyle or be disgusted by it ? Will Ayua be a desired baby or the result of a one night stand with Miru ? With this approach he can still have his cannon while allowing the player to have control over William. Leia has become a complication, don't know how Ocean will handle that.
I agree that it need to be addressed, I just don't think it needs to become a plot point. A single dialogue could take care of that, no need to be a mystery or be connected to the overall story. Leia. as I said I don't think that we are seeing Leia at her normal, I could bring some instances in game that leads me to do so, but I find discussing character takes a bit pointless, people read things differently. While I think she is acting rather emotional, is mainly because William pushes her, if another person did so I don't think she would acting as such.
Your is a fair take on Daphne, she needs quite a development yet. William is a interesting character - for me at least- thank to this different sides of his personality, he can be cunning and cold at the same time he is childish. He code switch with his family and friends to a dumb version of himself but he still is attentive of what it is happening. I don't think William is a genius but I think that he can easily be dismissed as dumb muscle and he plays into that. Regarding SG S1, is exactly that, I can't say how well it worked for first timers but for me you can see where it was cut and mended together, different pieces of story that was not there. I don't think it is bad, but I can't have a fair judgment of it. I do hope that moving forward we have more stanble grounds.
- Oct 3, 2019
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Personally I can see a Lady Macteth dynamic with Leia and William, she pushing him to become the kingping of Wollust and rein at her side, or at her feet. And find more easy she deciding to kill him than herself.
- Sep 3, 2020
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Here I find a problem, if you read the thread of the conversation if something was clear is that the story will change as many times as necessary. RNasc4444 gave a small list of examples (just a few)
That's why my approach to canon will always be the approach Ocean gave in writing. All the elements that are canon you will discover when he writes them in both AVNs, not before, but you will know that the WIAB ending(s) will not have any significance in the SG story. That's the only sure thing, everything else can and will change (for vanilla players that William and Leia are siblings is a bomb, for those of us who play the canon version that they are not Katie's siblings and Dylan and Helen's children are the bomb, just to give examples).
As for being a plot point, it should be, and beyond the need for us old players, there is the need for this information not to contaminate SG with suspicion. What I mean? it is information that should be fully disclosed in WIAB quickly and coherent with the objectives of the rework: to make the game better, if so much has been done to make the game have a "better" story, and such an important element is left in two dialogues of explanation, while the NTR or even the sexual approach with anyone other than Miru will take years because "everything should feel natural and not forced or porn", a situation that radically changes the player's approach to the story, deserves equal treatment.
Seeing the last moves made by Ocean, I doubt that at least season two has the freedom to be what it should be, it hasn't even started yet and it encountered "problems", so it introduced a major change to WIAB which facilitates what follows... until it gets to the next point of conflict.
- Oct 24, 2018
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- Jul 12, 2020
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Please don't start Neb...you're better than that.Fascinating stuff(I didn't read it). Is this game ever getting an update again?
- Apr 7, 2020
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After they start reworking it from chapter 1.Fascinating stuff(I didn't read it). Is this game ever getting an update again?
- Sep 3, 2020
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Yes, and the update will be given with batman memorabilia!Fascinating stuff(I didn't read it). Is this game ever getting an update again?