VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[NebulousShooter]

Please don't start Neb...you're better than that.

 

[BobTheDuck]

After they start reworking it from chapter 1.

Where've you been for the last 3 years? Too late, it's already happened and getting over that hurdle.

Here I find a problem, if you read the thread of the conversation if something was clear is that the story will change as many times as necessary. RNasc4444 gave a small list of examples (just a few)

That's why my approach to canon will always be the approach Ocean gave in writing. All the elements that are canon you will discover when he writes them in both AVNs, not before, but you will know that the WIAB ending(s) will not have any significance in the SG story. That's the only sure thing, everything else can and will change (for vanilla players that William and Leia are siblings is a bomb, for those of us who play the canon version that they are not Katie's siblings and Dylan and Helen's children are the bomb, just to give examples).





As for being a plot point, it should be, and beyond the need for us old players, there is the need for this information not to contaminate SG with suspicion. What I mean? it is information that should be fully disclosed in WIAB quickly and coherent with the objectives of the rework: to make the game better, if so much has been done to make the game have a "better" story, and such an important element is left in two dialogues of explanation, while the NTR or even the sexual approach with anyone other than Miru will take years because "everything should feel natural and not forced or porn", a situation that radically changes the player's approach to the story, deserves equal treatment.


Seeing the last moves made by Ocean, I doubt that at least season two has the freedom to be what it should be, it hasn't even started yet and it encountered "problems", so it introduced a major change to WIAB which facilitates what follows... until it gets to the next point of conflict.

I guess that's the reason for the theories, attempting to reason what the hanges that effect both games are likely to be to anticipate where the story is heading. A lot of people when coming up with theories tend to favour their desired kinks, or story options that support their kinks - the requests for harem paths are a common example of this. I'm attempting to think about it without being swayedby what I'd prefer to happen. Even if I don't get close, I can keep gussing until Ch4 reveals the next level of change anyway.

I agree 100% about that information that needs to be disclosed quickly and coherently. I do feel it will be set, the is heading to a steam release, even if early access. The early access will likely not risk major story changes as a paying audience gets shitty real quick if they feel the story is a bait and switch, so "m guessing Ocean spends a fair bit of time making sure the script is coherent, as well as sdjusting whatever script issues that will cause in SG, all the ripple effects. Currently in SG, the ripple effects are likely minimal, because we only know these WiaB characters from Ch5 anyway.

 

[Machete]

Where've you been for the last 3 years? Too late, it's already happened and getting over that hurdle.

I meant reworking it all over again a second time. And i know it isn't happening, i was jocking. I was being salty about this tendency the devs have to start reworking a game after already too many years in production, adding a lot more years to the conclusion of the project. You know... freedom of independent projects... i'm just glad i've never been a patreon.

 

[LHDLLB]

Here I find a problem, if you read the thread of the conversation if something was clear is that the story will change as many times as necessary. RNasc4444 gave a small list of examples (just a few)

That's why my approach to canon will always be the approach Ocean gave in writing. All the elements that are canon you will discover when he writes them in both AVNs, not before, but you will know that the WIAB ending(s) will not have any significance in the SG story. That's the only sure thing, everything else can and will change (for vanilla players that William and Leia are siblings is a bomb, for those of us who play the canon version that they are not Katie's siblings and Dylan and Helen's children are the bomb, just to give examples).


As for being a plot point, it should be, and beyond the need for us old players, there is the need for this information not to contaminate SG with suspicion. What I mean? it is information that should be fully disclosed in WIAB quickly and coherent with the objectives of the rework: to make the game better, if so much has been done to make the game have a "better" story, and such an important element is left in two dialogues of explanation, while the NTR or even the sexual approach with anyone other than Miru will take years because "everything should feel natural and not forced or porn", a situation that radically changes the player's approach to the story, deserves equal treatment.


Seeing the last moves made by Ocean, I doubt that at least season two has the freedom to be what it should be, it hasn't even started yet and it encountered "problems", so it introduced a major change to WIAB which facilitates what follows... until it gets to the next point of conflict.

I will really try to be brief, because I feel that I have already spoken too much. For all the jokes about Ocean changing the story every two updates, I really don't think that the guy wants it, nobody can tell a story this way, he needs solid foundation or no one will be invested in it.

I really don't think it needs to be a plot point. It certainly needs to be made clear what type of relationship the all have, it needs to make sense and be consistent through the entire game, for the players and to dispel suspicions. I fully agree with all that, I just don't think that make a plot point out of it is necessary, William and Leia don't needs to be children of the antagonist or related to him, it don't needs to be a mystery, it don't need to be a source of trauma to them - though this is not really a bad idea- I think the story can move well with they just clarifying the relationship and it being consistent.

Not gonna lie, this is the part the really troubles me. All the others change, while annoying, did perfect sense. SG had a good core but was rough ar round the edges, the consistence in renders quality, the same could be said about WiaB, this all are things that make perfect sense. Ocean changing fundamentals because he wrote himself into a corner, opens a wild precedent, that really worry's me.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I will really try to be brief, because I feel that I have already spoken too much. For all the jokes about Ocean changing the story every two updates, I really don't think that the guy wants it, nobody can tell a story this way, he needs solid foundation or no one will be invested in it.

I really don't think it needs to be a plot point. It certainly needs to be made clear what type of relationship the all have, it needs to make sense and be consistent through the entire game, for the players and to dispel suspicions. I fully agree with all that, I just don't think that make a plot point out of it is necessary, William and Leia don't needs to be children of the antagonist or related to him, it don't needs to be a mystery, it don't need to be a source of trauma to them - though this is not really a bad idea- I think the story can move well with they just clarifying the relationship and it being consistent.

Not gonna lie, this is the part the really troubles me. All the others change, while annoying, did perfect sense. SG had a good core but was rough ar round the edges, the consistence in renders quality, the same could be said about WiaB, this all are things that make perfect sense. Ocean changing fundamentals because he wrote himself into a corner, opens a wild precedent, that really worry's me.

As a plot point, who can say it wasn't there before? We simply don't know the connections. It might be a simple thing to write that way - in any case it was more a speculative comment than a desire to see this as a plot point. There are so many available plots that can make sense and make an engaging game that will fit. I don't believe a writer who has a vivid imagination can ever write themselves into an impossible corner. The problems are usually what things they hold onto that prevent them moving forward. The current situation is how to change the story, while keeping it the same. That IS impossible. So what Ocean's doing is sensible, take the deep breath, rip off the band aid. He did it before when the game was good but inconsistent and he realised he couldn't just re-render to make it what he wanted it to be. The changes now are things he doesn't probably want, but if he has found the story it can evolve into, that is better than just cutting troublesome content. Evolving it into something better that gets more attention and is has less problems is a great outcome. I'd rather he explored intruiging ideas than Ocean writing a neutered game just to get it out. Because we're still early in the game(s), changes now will mean a minimum of changes in direction in the long term. No guarantees, but the foundation is still being established - the first version didn't really have a solid foundation.

The fundamentals of the story are: scion returns to his hometown because of problems. He has conflicting issues with all the people from his past. There seems to be some sort of hidden business involving his sister. None of that has changed. The antagonist was never revealled properly, so the reveal is meant to be a surprise. All we need are plausible explanations for these events that have minimal alterations to the current script. For example, no one batted an eye over Monica's new backstory. It was so far in advance of her character from the original. Leia's empire was something that didn't really exist for most of the old game, we had no idea until the diner. Leia's personality is so much better, as is Dana's, and obviously Miru. Helen has no personality in either version yet. Katie's kept her larger than life personality. Kat's already more detailed than before, Zoey's no longer just a party girl hanging on Katie's arm, Gina's kinda in the same spot. Dylan's developed a personality beyond an awkward generic hairstyle with muscles. The negatives are far outshone by the positives. Well, except for Helen's body, and Leia's physical bimbofication.

So however Ocean manages the change, hopefully it should be integrated to the story rather than a bandaid applied. He is proven capable of writing better characters with better backstories, he's written increasingly better personalities as he's gone along. So the changes now aren't a problem, so much as how to integrate them into the preceding three chapters. And that is why this update isn't just the render count of the new chapter and new animations. He knows it has to hit steam and capture attention, as he needs it to start it's own ball rolling, after what happened with patreon.

 

[LHDLLB]

As a plot point, who can say it wasn't there before? We simply don't know the connections. It might be a simple thing to write that way - in any case it was more a speculative comment than a desire to see this as a plot point. There are so many available plots that can make sense and make an engaging game that will fit. I don't believe a writer who has a vivid imagination can ever write themselves into an impossible corner. The problems are usually what things they hold onto that prevent them moving forward. The current situation is how to change the story, while keeping it the same. That IS impossible. So what Ocean's doing is sensible, take the deep breath, rip off the band aid. He did it before when the game was good but inconsistent and he realised he couldn't just re-render to make it what he wanted it to be. The changes now are things he doesn't probably want, but if he has found the story it can evolve into, that is better than just cutting troublesome content. Evolving it into something better that gets more attention and is has less problems is a great outcome. I'd rather he explored intruiging ideas than Ocean writing a neutered game just to get it out. Because we're still early in the game(s), changes now will mean a minimum of changes in direction in the long term. No guarantees, but the foundation is still being established - the first version didn't really have a solid foundation.

The fundamentals of the story are: scion returns to his hometown because of problems. He has conflicting issues with all the people from his past. There seems to be some sort of hidden business involving his sister. None of that has changed. The antagonist was never revealled properly, so the reveal is meant to be a surprise. All we need are plausible explanations for these events that have minimal alterations to the current script. For example, no one batted an eye over Monica's new backstory. It was so far in advance of her character from the original. Leia's empire was something that didn't really exist for most of the old game, we had no idea until the diner. Leia's personality is so much better, as is Dana's, and obviously Miru. Helen has no personality in either version yet. Katie's kept her larger than life personality. Kat's already more detailed than before, Zoey's no longer just a party girl hanging on Katie's arm, Gina's kinda in the same spot. Dylan's developed a personality beyond an awkward generic hairstyle with muscles. The negatives are far outshone by the positives. Well, except for Helen's body, and Leia's physical bimbofication.

So however Ocean manages the change, hopefully it should be integrated to the story rather than a bandaid applied. He is proven capable of writing better characters with better backstories, he's written increasingly better personalities as he's gone along. So the changes now aren't a problem, so much as how to integrate them into the preceding three chapters. And that is why this update isn't just the render count of the new chapter and new animations. He knows it has to hit steam and capture attention, as he needs it to start it's own ball rolling, after what happened with patreon.

Is not that it is a bad idea, I can see your reasoning, just seems too much work to something that I don't see a necessity, but it is as you said, no one can really tell. I think that here we just disagree. If Ocean is changing the story because he hit a roadblock it makes me lose respect for him - not that he needed it in the first place- but it makes me way,way,way less invested in the stories he is telling. Not because is cutting fetishes but because it tells me Ocean is lost as to where the story is going, I understand it being a work in progress but that can not justified altering the scripts every two updates. Especially to a story that was already written and had a remake not that long ago. Is not a isolated fact, Ocean does has a track record with it, WiaB suffered a remake and 4 chapters in its remake suffered another big change, how can I be invested in it if I don't know what might change until the season 1 ends ?

That is if the reasoning is because he hit a roadblock. If the reasoning is ToS, money and outside forces, while it still being problematic I can perfectly understand it . Sometimes have constrains can even be good to the story. If to tell the story in the first place William can not be related to the entire cast. Fine, I don't really care. If in doing so it allows some of the romance paths to flow more naturally. All the better. If it allows the game to be more successful and Ocean makes more money. By the grace of God do it. What worry me is less the change and more what motivated it. Ocean is talented at written character and their interactions, I think that this change can elevate the story as you said, but it needs solid foundation.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Is not that it is a bad idea, I can see your reasoning, just seems too much work to something that I don't see a necessity, but it is as you said, no one can really tell. I think that here we just disagree. If Ocean is changing the story because he hit a roadblock it makes me lose respect for him - not that he needed it in the first place- but it makes me way,way,way less invested in the stories he is telling. Not because is cutting fetishes but because it tells me Ocean is lost as to where the story is going, I understand it being a work in progress but that can not justified altering the scripts every two updates. Especially to a story that was already written and had a remake not that long ago. Is not a isolated fact, Ocean does has a track record with it, WiaB suffered a remake and 4 chapters in its remake suffered another big change, how can I be invested in it if I don't know what might change until the season 1 ends ?

That is if the reasoning is because he hit a roadblock. If the reasoning is ToS, money and outside forces, while it still being problematic I can perfectly understand it . Sometimes have constrains can even be good to the story. If to tell the story in the first place William can not be related to the entire cast. Fine, I don't really care. If in doing so it allows some of the romance paths to flow more naturally. All the better. If it allows the game to be more successful and Ocean makes more money. By the grace of God do it. What worry me is less the change and more what motivated it. Ocean is talented at written character and their interactions, I think that this change can elevate the story as you said, but it needs solid foundation.

The reason is 100% ToS/future proofing. But my point is more just cutting stuff will leave holes, it is much better to add something to fill those gaps. SG suffered in the end, because Ocean cut innocent cinematics because he couldn't find music to replace the expired licenses in time. Hopefully this change has better continuity than SG.

 

[sorco2003]

Is not that it is a bad idea, I can see your reasoning, just seems too much work to something that I don't see a necessity, but it is as you said, no one can really tell. I think that here we just disagree. If Ocean is changing the story because he hit a roadblock it makes me lose respect for him - not that he needed it in the first place- but it makes me way,way,way less invested in the stories he is telling. Not because is cutting fetishes but because it tells me Ocean is lost as to where the story is going, I understand it being a work in progress but that can not justified altering the scripts every two updates. Especially to a story that was already written and had a remake not that long ago. Is not a isolated fact, Ocean does has a track record with it, WiaB suffered a remake and 4 chapters in its remake suffered another big change, how can I be invested in it if I don't know what might change until the season 1 ends ?

That is if the reasoning is because he hit a roadblock. If the reasoning is ToS, money and outside forces, while it still being problematic I can perfectly understand it . Sometimes have constrains can even be good to the story. If to tell the story in the first place William can not be related to the entire cast. Fine, I don't really care. If in doing so it allows some of the romance paths to flow more naturally. All the better. If it allows the game to be more successful and Ocean makes more money. By the grace of God do it. What worry me is less the change and more what motivated it. Ocean is talented at written character and their interactions, I think that this change can elevate the story as you said, but it needs solid foundation.

In this case I am going to agree with you, this approach seems to me to be fundamental for what is to come, unlike BobTheDuck who only has faith (yes Bob, I summarized your whole block of text to faith and hope ).
Even so, I just want to point out that we are talking about a story that has undergone countless changes, from its base to its connection, with foundations more like jelly and that at least until the exit of chapter 4 keeps us in suspense the same... Who knows what will happen with WIAB later, everyone will see their fears crystallize or not, or maybe Steam will not be enough to keep it, but today it still attracts our attention, so much so that we continue writing about it.

 

[cozynot]

bruh why are ppl writing essays

 

[Dr.TSoni]

In this case I am going to agree with you, this approach seems to me to be fundamental for what is to come, unlike BobTheDuck who only has faith (yes Bob, I summarized your whole block of text to faith and hope ).
Even so, I just want to point out that we are talking about a story that has undergone countless changes, from its base to its connection, with foundations more like jelly and that at least until the exit of chapter 4 keeps us in suspense the same... Who knows what will happen with WIAB later, everyone will see their fears crystallize or not, or maybe Steam will not be enough to keep it, but today it still attracts our attention, so much so that we continue writing about it.

 

[dlaskas]

bruh why are ppl writing essays

ikr. was trying to follow this but this is just way too fucking much.
don't yall have jobs, family... dogs?
.. potentially a life?
:/

 

[The Krogan Dude]

don't yall have jobs, family... dogs?

I'm pretty sure they're all here. Not my dog of course but my family and my colleagues are definitely here.

 

[RNasc4444]

ikr. was trying to follow this but this is just way too fucking much.
don't yall have jobs, family... dogs?
.. potentially a life?
:/

Bruh my gf can spend over an hour on the couch rotting her brain just scrolling through social media posts barely saying a word or glancing at the TV. I'll be damned if I can't write a couple of essays here in the 10m I'm spending on the shitter anyways.

I can't possibly read every post on any of the threads I follow but every so often there are discussions that are entertaining enough to read through. I can think of plenty of worse things you could be doing with your time.

 

[dlaskas]

Bruh my gf can spend over an hour on the couch rotting her brain just scrolling through social media posts barely saying a word or glancing at the TV. I'll be damned if I can't write a couple of essays here in the 10m I'm spending on the shitter anyways.

I can't possibly read every post on any of the threads I follow but every so often there are discussions that are entertaining enough to read through. I can think of plenty of worse things you could be doing with your time.

there's always worse things lol.
hey man, you do you, dont let me stop you.
im just amazed at how many posts are posted in this thread in one single day. i have 100 comments per page and it was like 2 or 3 pages of essays in one whole weekend. thats not 10m, thats an hour at the very least xD

but, again, you do you, im just saying.

 

[yossa999]

I can't possibly read every post on any of the threads I follow but every so often there are discussions that are entertaining enough to read through. I can think of plenty of worse things you could be doing with your time.

Itsa porn site!!! If you want a discussion, join a discussion club!!! Only Bobs and Vegana are allowed!!!111

 

[yossa999]

I enjoyed following the discussion with LHDLLB, Bob and Sorco, but I think you guys are too idealizing the Ocean's games. I mean, you're holding them up to some kind of ideal, a perfect spherical horse in a vacuum. Maybe as a spherical horse, WiAB or SG probably made up of nothing but flaws and imperfections. But, to be honest, I can hardly remember a single series from recent years that didn’t contain dozens of plot holes and inconsistencies, and they are produced by a crowd of professionals with huge budgets. When I say that Ocean's games are the best, I don't mean they're perfect, I mean just that the others are even worse.

Plot holes? There's no plot hole that can't be filled with some juicy, perverted shagging, and if you're cornered in your story writing, you can always turn the board upside down and burn one of the main LIs, forcing the player to choose which one! The only thing that worries me is that the end of the year is approaching and there is still no news.

 

[Maviarab]

I enjoyed following the discussion with LHDLLB, Bob and Sorco, but I think you guys are too idealizing the Ocean's games. I mean, you're holding them up to some kind of ideal, a perfect spherical horse in a vacuum. Maybe as a spherical horse, WiAB or SG probably made up of nothing but flaws and imperfections. But, to be honest, I can hardly remember a single series from recent years that didn’t contain dozens of plot holes and inconsistencies, and they are produced by a crowd of professionals with huge budgets. When I say that Ocean's games are the best, I don't mean they're perfect, I mean just that the others are even worse.

Plot holes? There's no plot hole that can't be filled with some juicy, perverted shagging, and if you're cornered in your story writing, you can always turn the board upside down and burn one of the main LIs, forcing the player to choose which one! The only thing that worries me is that the end of the year is approaching and there is still no news.

Well...

Spoiler

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[sorco2003]

I enjoyed following the discussion with LHDLLB, Bob and Sorco, but I think you guys are too idealizing the Ocean's games. I mean, you're holding them up to some kind of ideal, a perfect spherical horse in a vacuum. Maybe as a spherical horse, WiAB or SG probably made up of nothing but flaws and imperfections. But, to be honest, I can hardly remember a single series from recent years that didn’t contain dozens of plot holes and inconsistencies, and they are produced by a crowd of professionals with huge budgets. When I say that Ocean's games are the best, I don't mean they're perfect, I mean just that the others are even worse.

Plot holes? There's no plot hole that can't be filled with some juicy, perverted shagging, and if you're cornered in your story writing, you can always turn the board upside down and burn one of the main LIs, forcing the player to choose which one! The only thing that worries me is that the end of the year is approaching and there is still no news.

We're doing the opposite of idealizing.... The basis of the whole conversation is "the canon", the rest of the conversation is more or less the same you find in any avn thread that has a little bit of plot and script (very little, with only one MC deciding whether to fuck or not, you already have a similar conversation)



To idealize would be to say that they are a single story and it is perfectly coordinated between the two, that I am totally satisfied to get an up date from each one because it is the best story of this forum...

 

[BobTheDuck]

Itsa porn site!!! If you want a discussion, join a discussion club!!! Only Bobs and Vegana are allowed!!!111

Seeing itsapornsite™ and this is just a dumb porn game, it this better material for discussion?



Up8 andr01d wen????

 

[dlaskas]

Seeing itsapornsite™ and this is just a dumb porn game, it this better material for discussion?

View attachment 4138516

Up8 andr01d wen????

hell, i'd pay to see more of that.