VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[sorco2003]

I'm out of reactions, but yes. Only difference is he does seem to be working faster, but the proof of that only arrives with an actual update. He did the cinema scene when he'd just gotten the cards, so I'm sure he's more optimised in his workflow. Regardless, he will go forward at the same pace he has been for the last three months, which is still very decent.

I had considered the expenses issue to offset earnings, some might need to be depreciated, so it won't be as direct a benefit, I guess it depends on how the rules work ...and as long as he stays within the rules so he's not rendering from prison, he can work all that out

And back to the better nipple rings, and a deadly Miru. That part of the future is bright.

A small annotation to the general idea. No matter the speed at which the work goes, during the problems of the cinema scene, let's suppose that he made 20 renders that dropped to 10 because of the problem, but with a target of 1200 max ... If we extrapolate now we could say that it is proportional, since it goes down from 45 to 20... with a target that goes from 2500 to 4000.

 

[AlexFXR]

And I wonder why every small business doesn't do that.....so easy

Who told you that small business owners don't do this? Only those who are tied to the territory or have too little income don't do it.

Donations in Germany are only tax free for non-profit cooperations like WWF, Greenpeace, the local animal shelter and so on.

I can't understand what you're talking about. Ocean works (receives donations) on Patreon. Is Patreon located in Germany? No.... It's located in the United States. Does Germany have the right to demand money (taxes) from other countries? As far as I know, Germany has no such rights. But with Steam, it's a completely different story.

 

[sorco2003]

Who told you that small business owners don't do this? Only those who are tied to the territory or have too little income don't do it.

I can't understand what you're talking about. Ocean works (receives donations) on Patreon. Is Patreon located in Germany? No.... It's located in the United States. Does Germany have the right to demand money (taxes) from other countries? As far as I know, Germany has no such rights. But with Steam, it's a completely different story.

He is telling you that for Ocean taxes he does not qualify as a tax free entity, his work even implies a transaction with a third party to which he pays to obtain funds... the closest thing I found on the internet (I am not going to investigate more deeply just to answer here) is the figure of "gift" that in case of an individual is taxed between 30 and 50%. But it has a double taxation agreement with USA, so that what Patreon withholds as taxes would serve for that purpose (which also varies between 25 and 50% depending on the country, for my country it is 35%).

 

[AlexFXR]

He is telling you that for Ocean taxes he does not qualify as a tax free entity, his work even implies a transaction with a third party to which he pays to obtain funds... the closest thing I found on the internet (I am not going to investigate more deeply just to answer here) is the figure of "gift" that in case of an individual is taxed between 30 and 50%. But it has a double taxation agreement with USA, so that what Patreon withholds as taxes would serve for that purpose (which also varies between 25 and 50% depending on the country, for my country it is 35%).

I have already written earlier that the tax in the USA on donations from 1 to 2% which is paid by Patreon, this does not concern Germany at all. Moreover, I have friends in Dresden who do not pay taxes, although they also live on donations like Ocean. They also do not pay taxes in Germany if they organize an exhibition in another country and sell paintings there. Why do not they pay taxes in Germany? Your words even logically seem strange. If Ocean wants to go to another country and earn money there, then he will pay taxes where he works, and not in Germany. The same with donations, if Ocean received donations in another country, then he pays taxes there, if any, but in Germany he is not obliged to pay anything.

 

[sorco2003]

I have already written earlier that the tax in the USA on donations from 1 to 2% which is paid by Patreon, this does not concern Germany at all. Moreover, I have friends in Dresden who do not pay taxes, although they also live on donations like Ocean. They also do not pay taxes in Germany if they organize an exhibition in another country and sell paintings there. Why do not they pay taxes in Germany? Your words even logically seem strange. If Ocean wants to go to another country and earn money there, then he will pay taxes where he works, and not in Germany. The same with donations, if Ocean received donations in another country, then he pays taxes there, if any, but in Germany he is not obliged to pay anything.

Before we go any further, do you know anything about taxes or are you just jumping around?

 

[AlexFXR]

Before we go any further, do you know anything about taxes or are you just jumping around?

I only know about German taxes what my friends told me about them. As I said before, they don't pay taxes on donations. If they were forced to pay taxes, they wouldn't return to Germany.

 

[sorco2003]

I only know about German taxes what my friends told me about them. As I said before, they don't pay taxes on donations. If they were forced to pay taxes, they wouldn't return to Germany.

Every individual is taxed at the tax domicile, every activity that involves profit is considered work, the figure of donation is universal and deals with legal entities whose activities do not pursue profit. This is in all the countries of the world.
Donations between individuals depend on the local legislation (country or state in the case of USA) where at least the three cases that i know are included in the figure of “gift”, the rate in Germany being the one I already mentioned. In the USA it is taxed when it exceeds $18k (can reach 40%.). The “gifts” as a tax figure only correspond to individuals.
According to the laws of the state of California, Patreon does not qualify in any of the sections to be considered a taxable subject of donations, it is a for-profit company, therefore any money that is handled by them is considered a commercial transaction.

The other particularity that could fit in this case would be the Patronage Law, but each country has its own legislation on the subject and to be honest I am not going to read about the case in USA or Germany, since from the beginning Patreon is considered a commercial enterprise.

Finally, one example is anecdotal, not general law.

 

[sorco2003]

Where you say that it is like this all over the world, it is not true. After graduating from university, I worked in 3 countries and always paid taxes in the country where I worked, and upon returning, no one demanded additional payments from me. Moreover, for the first time in my life I hear that a person pays taxes on money earned in another country. Crowds of French people going to work in Switzerland, who do they pay taxes to?

I have been looking through the laws of Germany for over an hour now and I cannot find where it says that I am obliged to pay taxes on money earned in another country. There is only a law here that says that I am obliged to pay taxes on money earned in Germany. Where did you find this law?

P.S. You know that a gift and a donation are different things, right?

So you moved to work in 3 countries? therefore your tax domicile changed? or you did business trips so paying taxes in those countries was unnecessary?

Donation is the universal concept

About the PS, yes, I explained it, you only had to read the post to know the difference of both tax concepts.

 

[GetOutOfMyLab]

hory shet, all this crap about taxes...

 

[sorco2003]

hory shet, all this crap about taxes...

View attachment 4167808

Sexy very sexy taxes..

 

[Krytax123]

I only know about German taxes what my friends told me about them. As I said before, they don't pay taxes on donations. If they were forced to pay taxes, they wouldn't return to Germany.

You do have to pay taxes for donations in germany, its the same for twitch streamers for example, they count as revenue.

You or your friend are confusing it with donations for non-profit organisation (no taxes for these).

 

[AlexFXR]

So you moved to work in 3 countries? therefore your tax domicile changed? or you did business trips so paying taxes in those countries was unnecessary?

Donation is the universal concept

About the PS, yes, I explained it, you only had to read the post to know the difference of both tax concepts.

I found the law you're talking about, apparently such stupidity only exists in Germany..... If Ocean hadn't said that he was receiving a donation on Patreon, he wouldn't have paid taxes on it.I even felt sorry for the Germans.

If donation is a universal concept, then you have to pay taxes if someone gives you 100 euros for your birthday, for example?
p.s. Ocean needs to move to St. Lucia, the income tax there is 1%

 

[BobTheDuck]

A small annotation to the general idea. No matter the speed at which the work goes, during the problems of the cinema scene, let's suppose that he made 20 renders that dropped to 10 because of the problem, but with a target of 1200 max ... If we extrapolate now we could say that it is proportional, since it goes down from 45 to 20... with a target that goes from 2500 to 4000.

That's super pessimistic. The vast majority of renders will still be small (under 5) numbers of characters. All the ones in the house/apartment will be standard speed. The question is how long the large scene is. I'm assuming dinner out at the restaurant will be something large, as could be the train station. But the train will be most likely a short enough scene, while a dinner is likely to be long (longer than the cinema by far). Ocean has also learned how to deal with such scenes (consider the bookclub, he stays to closeups and small groups for the majority of the time.

We also don't know if he's included any rendering those big scenes in the figure he's supplied - that might already be baked in to his estimates on speed, maybe it's based purely on WiaB renders, maybe its the shared count of SG and WiaB. If so, it'll include renders from SG's big scenes as well, so more likely to be an average.

The things which will cause slow downs in my opinion are the cinematics, all the behind the scenes things to get it on steam, and all the continuity changes required to get the 'change' properly implemented. You're right that it is unlikely before the end of the year, but I'm okay with hoping and getting disappointed if need be. Nothing gets broken by hoping. What is most inspiring about the recent devlogs (not so much this one) is the palpable enthusiasm Ocean appears to have. I bet he was excited to drop those Miru renders, knowing they'll make us drool a little, and being proud of them. I suspect he's also purposefully hiding how much work he has to do in WiaB because of the change, and because there probably aren't any many solely WiaB supporters on SS because of the way it's set up - Ocean knows that they get both devlogs to appease them. Okay, so I'm slightly cynical too.

 

[sorco2003]

That's super pessimistic. The vast majority of renders will still be small (under 5) numbers of characters. All the ones in the house/apartment will be standard speed. The question is how long the large scene is. I'm assuming dinner out at the restaurant will be something large, as could be the train station. But the train will be most likely a short enough scene, while a dinner is likely to be long (longer than the cinema by far). Ocean has also learned how to deal with such scenes (consider the bookclub, he stays to closeups and small groups for the majority of the time.

We also don't know if he's included any rendering those big scenes in the figure he's supplied - that might already be baked in to his estimates on speed, maybe it's based purely on WiaB renders, maybe its the shared count of SG and WiaB. If so, it'll include renders from SG's big scenes as well, so more likely to be an average.

The things which will cause slow downs in my opinion are the cinematics, all the behind the scenes things to get it on steam, and all the continuity changes required to get the 'change' properly implemented. You're right that it is unlikely before the end of the year, but I'm okay with hoping and getting disappointed if need be. Nothing gets broken by hoping. What is most inspiring about the recent devlogs (not so much this one) is the palpable enthusiasm Ocean appears to have. I bet he was excited to drop those Miru renders, knowing they'll make us drool a little, and being proud of them. I suspect he's also purposefully hiding how much work he has to do in WiaB because of the change, and because there probably aren't any many solely WiaB supporters on SS because of the way it's set up - Ocean knows that they get both devlogs to appease them. Okay, so I'm slightly cynical too.

You are too optimistic Bob, you said it yourself, Ocean has learned from the past scenes, therefore explaining that the heavy scenes take him twice as long implies that he has already solved all the previous problems, and still the speed drops by half.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Every individual is taxed at the tax domicile, every activity that involves profit is considered work, the figure of donation is universal and deals with legal entities whose activities do not pursue profit. This is in all the countries of the world.
Donations between individuals depend on the local legislation (country or state in the case of USA) where at least the three cases that i know are included in the figure of “gift”, the rate in Germany being the one I already mentioned. In the USA it is taxed when it exceeds $18k (can reach 40%.). The “gifts” as a tax figure only correspond to individuals.
According to the laws of the state of California, Patreon does not qualify in any of the sections to be considered a taxable subject of donations, it is a for-profit company, therefore any money that is handled by them is considered a commercial transaction.

The other particularity that could fit in this case would be the Patronage Law, but each country has its own legislation on the subject and to be honest I am not going to read about the case in USA or Germany, since from the beginning Patreon is considered a commercial enterprise.

Finally, one example is anecdotal, not general law.

I did one google search, and it took me straight to the section where Patreon talks about income reporting for taxation purposes for EU creators. If a person declare's they're not a US resident for tax purposes, patreon stops doing the US thing. If undeclared, the US rules apply.

Accepting commisions is a reportable activity, so Ocean has to report, that is one of his benefits. So it's a moot point what someone trying to fly under the radar by miscategorising their services vs someone who has alreadys tated they're doing taxable ativities.

Ocean is overtly doing taxable ativitis on patreon. It's that simple. He has a business entity, and he can offset his steam and patreon incomes against his leases and licenses. I'm sure he bundles it all in one to maximise the tax offsets that he can. Oh hello workstation, how many of you can I have in a 12 month period to offset taxes and move my business forward?

You are too optimistic Bob, you said it yourself, Ocean has learned from the past scenes, therefore explaining that the heavy scenes take him twice as long implies that he has already solved all the previous problems, and still the speed drops by half.

Sure, but the speed drops for half for those renders, not the whole 4000. You're taking a wurst case scenario (sorry had to say it because of all the german flying around).

 

[Maviarab]

hory shet, all this crap about taxes...

View attachment 4167808

 

[SamualHand]

Sexy very sexy taxes..
View attachment 4167816

Where is the payment booth?

 

[moondrake]

Okay, I really was gonna check through here for an update or estimated release date, even if I was skipping dev updates, but then I got a lesson on German taxation instead.
Someone help me out. Is there a release anticipated any time in the next few months?

 

[BobTheDuck]

Okay, I really was gonna check through here for an update or estimated release date, even if I was skipping dev updates, but then I got a lesson on German taxation instead.
Someone help me out. Is there a release anticipated any time in the next few months?

I doubt anything before the end of the year, most likely early next year. However, Ocean promised a render count in the next devlog, so that will give us some kind of indication where it's actually at, percentage toward completion, so maybe check the thread not this Thursday (because that's SG's devlog) but the following Thurs (or Friday if it's late).

Last devlog is here if you missed it, and the one before.

 

[yossa999]

Okay, I really was gonna check through here for an update or estimated release date, even if I was skipping dev updates, but then I got a lesson on German taxation instead.
Someone help me out. Is there a release anticipated any time in the next few months?

Has there been any statement from Ocean about a planned release date? No.
Did Ocean publish any estimate on how long it would take to complete Chapter 4? No.
Actually, the only thing he promised for sure was that he wouldn't give any estimates until he was 100% sure of them.

So we can only guess. And the only information we have is breadcrumbs in the developer logs. In September, he wrote that he had reached the 2,000 renders milestone. He also wrote that he estimated the full length of Chapter 4 at 3,000-3,500 renders. (Fun fact, in April, he estimated the total at 2,500-2,800 renders.)

In a recent devlog, in the next episode of the Tax/Workstation saga, he wrote that his current hardware allows him to do 25-40 renders per night. Not sure what this mean - he doesn't do the rendering at the days? I take it as the throughput per day.

So, given that there are 3500-2000 = 1500 renders left, and that he's doing 25 (pessimistic estimate) renders per day, it'll take 60 days just to render that amount. But he has animations planned, and he's going to do them after the static renders are done, in postwork phase. So a very optimistic estimate is ~2.5 - 3 months to complete.

But! It is not clear from the log, these 25-40 renders per day - are these renders only WiAB or WiAB + SG?
If it's the latter, then you can safely multiply my estimate by 2 or even 2.5, since he usually prioritizes SG over WiAB.

Or throw away all my calculations, because they are nothing more than guesses.