VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[Krytax123]

I mean, I'm not criticizing but I really don't understand why the blood relationships are important for this story.

For example, there is a game where MC lived in a foster family when he was a teenager. He became very attached to them and considered them his family and thought he was as important to them as they were to him. But as soon as the wife managed to get pregnant (not from MC, damn perverts) and the foster couple began to preparing for the birth of their own child - they threw MC out of house into the cold without regret!

This event from the past became the basis for many problems and conflicts in MC's life. It explains why he can't build serious relationships in the present, why he is obsessed with the idea of reuniting with his possible relatives, although next to him are people who have been with him all his life, always treated him like family and whom he hurts with his neglect.

I can understand why it's important to a plot like this, but WiAB... The only purpose of their relationship is an incest fetish and nothing more. Well, bummer on you, uncle-daddies.

As for the explanation of the changes, this sounds like the simplest thing, to me. Although I am not a much of storyteller, but what prevents even me from coming up with any explanation after the fact.

Who said that Lord Zane isn't Zane now? Who stripped him of his title?

He's not blood-related to Helen Zane, so what? They took the twins from orphanage as their foster children and gave them their name. Maybe Willie and Leia don't even know who their real parents are or what their last name is. So they chose Zane with the consent of the foster family, that sounds better than Doe.

What a plot hole, my ass...

Come on, be serious.

And if its about patreon, any kind of adoption storyline wont be there either or it will still be incest, blood relation or not. Not even discussing the fact that there probably (?) still is incest with Leia? And you cant just "chose" a name without adoption or anything at least not where im from lol

That said if they turn out to be simply adopted, im completly fine with that but wouldnt see the need for the change so i doubt its just that.

But there is a lot of emphasis on the Zane name in both titles and i think a "dynasty" like that with multiple (possible) members who are interesting is great for a story.

So i STRONGLY disagree that the only purpose of the family/relationships is a incest purpose, its the entire foundation of the story imo and at least to me its partially what makes wiab/sg special, the connections (and im not talking only about incest -_-). Even simply things like Ayua being a Zane increase the quality of these avns/universe for me, everything seems more connected and alive.

It would have even worked if William and Leia are the Zane's and Katie, Helen and Dylan are not but apparently its not like that.

Im not even into incest and would for example NEVER play a Helen path (yuck yuck yuck partent/child incest, sorry The enjoyers) and i prefer normal family setups over incest ridden ones.

BUT what i really dislike is storys who entirely disfigure their relationships/familys just to force the incest into it. This story made sense considering the relationships while the story doesnt make any sense anymore without the relationships.

Im just kinda afraid it keeps going as it is (without incest patch) and we get just more "no-explanations" about who these guys all are to each other. It just makes the story kinda dumb in cases like that imo.

It wouldnt have been needed for william to come back to a family in the first place, it could have simply been friends he has a strong bond/connection to who need help or whatever or even his criminal ties pulling him back.

 

[Allenebs]

It seems like a sneak attack. This morning, in almost every thread I follow, there are a couple of guys asking "update when?"
If this isn't a flashmob, the only answer you can receive: "when it's ready."
Almost no developer (except for a few well-organized guys) can plan their releases in such a way that they can announce them several months in advance. So the question makes no sense. Sorry for the bitter truth.

Ok, this is a load of shit. Production is production and making these processes more efficient is what I've done professionally for over a decade. If you're a first time dev, yeah, a deadline is hard to set until your initial release. When you have months or years of development, you very much can set easily achieved deadlines. Every established dev has a rough target for each update as to how many renders and animations and even the fans can track things like average renders per day. The average renders per day is the most useful metric here.

Lets say you're absolute max number of renders you'd be willing to put in an update is 2,000, but most of your updates have 1400-1800. Give yourself a buffer of 5%, meaning you're "targeting' 2100 renders. You're maintained a consistent 3.5 renders per day, on average. Meaning your next update is likely going to take 600 days. (This is a high number of renders per update and a very low average renders per day). This gives you more than a 15% dev time buffer, which is actually massive. And this gives you a TON of options. Meaning even something like a death in the immediately family wouldn't impact your targeted release date even if you have several other issues. It's enough time to throw in a couple "bonus episodes," or include an abnormal number of animations while running into unexpected coding errors. No one will ever be upset about you finishing before your deadline, but there is no excuse for failing to hit a deadline you set yourself.

There are many industries which have annual hard launch dates that they can not miss without massively impacting our economy. For example, millions of people would starve to death if one of these deadlines were missed, but they typically allow more than a 2 month buffer.

 

[LHDLLB]

So I've been busy drinking whisky and missed all this fun. Apologies if I ramble.



Important thing is the emotional connection. There are families who would kill rather than fuck each other. Does William, care? His tears say yes. His assholeness says no.




Againt the important thing is how the characters value their relationships, not how external people view it. Ocean could write that Katie accuses William of rape with really immature reasoning, and he fled with really immature reaosning. We still don't know why William left in the canon run through. There are plausible ways that still keep the emotions intense, but not the same reasons. Or maybe there are - if Katie accuss William of fiddling Leia, it's still the same reason he left. Essentially yossa is right, people are upset that Helen isn't their mom to bang, and Katie isn't blood. Are thos central to either version of WiaB as a plot, or just as details?

Secondly, I do value that WiaB has had on the whole a far more mature response to incest than is the norm, so I do understand people feeling that Ocean has closed the door on exploring tht territory in a mature manner. That's kind of the only reason I have why the change is bad. But Katie is still Katie regardless to me. If I don't get Ayua or Maja, well, Katie is better than them anyway. I don't need reasons other than her. She'll run ring around Willi which Leia and Helen are too fat to do now. All that eating of theirs while waiting for their content to be updated or some such....



They'd be devastated because they were his legal guardians for probably more than a decade. Would Noji be upset wha happened if NIka disappeared? Of course she would. Noji is not Nika's mom, and never has been - earliest versions still talked about Nika's biological mom dying. So if Noji can care, why wouldn't Helen and Dylan? Some humans feel emotion after a decade of coexistence. They raised Willi and Leia alongside Katie for a long time. Lines blur. Katie is what, 21? Final year? She was 11-12 when William left then. Wiliam might have always been there if he was in Helen and Dylan's guardianship from 3. Someone who's always been there is a huge thing in your life. I miss friends who I've lost touch with after years, it's still raw. People are worth everything and nothing, depending on how you connect.



Family is NOT essential to the story. Explain what is impossible. William is contacted by (according to the redacted devlog) his blood relative - the ONLY relative he has, who tells him she needs him to help with the only other people who showed him kindness. What would you do? Like Willi, who has income regardless of where he lives as an author? Travel for a holiday to see what's going down, then realise you lost part of yourself as a child by fleeing the only care you knew out of fear?

It's still fucking heavy shit. It simply doesn't tickle the fantasy that people imagine.

I am sorry Bob but I am unsure as where we disagree. I am not saying that they have to be blood related to the story make sense, but they need to be related. Maybe I am the odd one here but you don't leave your whole life behind because your childhood friend asked you. As I said, it does not need to be blood, can be whatever but they need to see each other as family. Helen as a mother figure, Dylan as a father figure and Katie as a sister. I am not denying the kinky part of it but if William has no relation to them beyond, "they are good people", is strange.

As Nojiko, that is not the best example. That does not make sense. We let it pass but your landlady does not pays for your medical bills. Do you understand my problem ? Nojiko is easy to ignore, mostly, but you can't write a family drama with out a family. Say that William does not calls Helen mom, there is not need she is his guardian, but she needs to act like a mom. The awkwardness of wanting to fuck her still will existi but a giant taboo is no longer there, and I am fine with that. But it will matter to TOS ? If it walks like duck ? talks like a duck ? fucks like a duck ? I don't know.

Again I am not complaining because a kinky is not in the game. I am unsure as how a change will affect the story as there is no almost family, you are family or not. Again not talking about blood here.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Come on, be serious.

And if its about patreon, any kind of adoption storyline wont be there either or it will still be incest, blood relation or not. Not even discussing the fact that there probably (?) still is incest with Leia? And you cant just "chose" a name without adoption or anything at least not where im from lol

That said if they turn out to be simply adopted, im completly fine with that but wouldnt see the need for the change so i doubt its just that.

But there is a lot of emphasis on the Zane name in both titles and i think a "dynasty" like that with multiple (possible) members who are interesting is great for a story.

So i STRONGLY disagree that the only purpose of the family/relationships is a incest purpose, its the entire foundation of the story imo and at least to me its partially what makes wiab/sg special, the connections (and im not talking only about incest -_-). Even simply things like Ayua being a Zane increase the quality of these avns/universe for me, everything seems more connected and alive.

It would have even worked if William and Leia are the Zane's and Katie, Helen and Dylan are not but apparently its not like that.

Im not even into incest and would for example NEVER play a Helen path (yuck yuck yuck partent/child incest, sorry The enjoyers) and i prefer normal family setups over incest ridden ones.

BUT what i really dislike is storys who entirely disfigure their relationships/familys just to force the incest into it. This story made sense considering the relationships while the story doesnt make any sense anymore without the relationships.

Im just kinda afraid it keeps going as it is (without incest patch) and we get just more "no-explanations" about who these guys all are to each other. It just makes the story kinda dumb in cases like that imo.

It wouldnt have been needed for william to come back to a family in the first place, it could have simply been friends he has a strong bond/connection to who need help or whatever or even his criminal ties pulling him back.

I mean yeah. 100%. William could be motivated byt he decades of upbringing he had with the Zanes. We done't know adopted or foster, or guradian, legal names or whether Ocean will retroactively make Ayua a Cyrus.

Ocean can reveal anything that hasn't already been revealed in whatever way he sees fit, considering he abandoned the original version of WiaB as poorly written. Whether or not we like the direction he takes with the new version is up to us. But it's false to accuse him of writing a different story when he expressly has said old WiaB isn't canon. We can accuse him of changing the canon of 1-3, but only once 4 is released. Until then, there is no change to measure or compare.

William can be emotional. We see it when he calls Daphne. If he was 100% asshole, well he wouldn't come back for his twin or parents/landlords. He's a caring sort who earns money from a novel ie: he can leave town for a few days on a whim to deal with things. Friends of mine regularly do the road trip excuse to get away from things. The issue of blood or not is a non event for empathy, empathy is based on character, not blood - some people have no empathy for their blood, other people's hearts bleed for the whole world.

ANd yes, we'll probably have to read from the start and pretend it's the first time once Ch4 is released. If it's good and coherent, well, that's the price of playing a game that's released as a work in progress. Thats a quirk/foible of Ocean's writing and development, and I can deal with it as a leech. I'll also pay the minute he puts it up for sale on steam.

"The no explanations" is actually fan expectations that are too impatient for the speed of the story teller, and yes, the speed is a problem. Ocan will explain them in time, or there will be a half assed story people will give up on, simple as that.

 

[Miranha157]

Dude, I'll just say one thing, SG/Wiab/Ocean is worse than crack, you're crazy man, I'm going to disconnect for a while, I'm tired of reading and theorizing. It seems like they're sucking my energy.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I am sorry Bob but I am unsure as where we disagree. I am not saying that they have to be blood related to the story make sense, but they need to be related. Maybe I am the odd one here but you don't leave your whole life behind because your childhood friend asked you. As I said, it does not need to be blood, can be whatever but they need to see each other as family. Helen as a mother figure, Dylan as a father figure and Katie as a sister. I am not denying the kinky part of it but if William has no relation to them beyond, "they are good people", is strange.

As Nojiko, that is not the best example. That does not make sense. We let it pass but your landlady does not pays for your medical bills. Do you understand my problem ? Nojiko is easy to ignore, mostly, but you can't write a family drama with out a family. Say that William does not calls Helen mom, there is not need she is his guardian, but she needs to act like a mom. The awkwardness of wanting to fuck her still will existi but a giant taboo is no longer there, and I am fine with that. But it will matter to TOS ? If it walks like duck ? talks like a duck ? fucks like a duck ? I don't know.

Again I am not complaining because a kinky is not in the game. I am unsure as how a change will affect the story as there is no almost family, you are family or not. Again not talking about blood here.

See the issue is how you percieve other people's motivations. If your twin called you and told you she needed you because your foster mother who raised you from age 3 had an accident, and you didn't have any work contract, just royalties as an income - why the hell wouldn't you go?

I mean, IF the redacted (we're not even certain of this) post is true - Leia and William have the sam relationship they always had, and Ocean changed the others for the sake of the story he wants to tell, because obviously William and Leia are still taboo. So this whole thing of ToS is not relevant. It's because Ocean wrote himself into a corner, and decided differently.

I mentioned this elsewhere, bet a couple of day ago someone I met once posted on social media they they were going to kill themselves. I found out too late, they were 5 min from my house. I saw the post 7 hours after. Someone who didn't know them dropped everything and drove over, kept them from killing themselves. There is kindness in the world (the person survived okay btw). People are triggered to act by all kinds of things. If a stranger can drop everything to save a life, I would drop my shit and try, I just found out too late to be useful.

I guess what I'm saying is that a story doesn't have to follow our expectations - none of us have all of what we want in life. William, can be flighty and just get in the car because of emotions. Logic is a poor way to understand human relationships.

 

[yossa999]

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Thanks a bunch bro, I updated the links, now my OCD can get some rest.

 

[Krytax123]

I mean yeah. 100%. William could be motivated byt he decades of upbringing he had with the Zanes. We done't know adopted or foster, or guradian, legal names or whether Ocean will retroactively make Ayua a Cyrus.

Ocean can reveal anything that hasn't already been revealed in whatever way he sees fit, considering he abandoned the original version of WiaB as poorly written. Whether or not we like the direction he takes with the new version is up to us. But it's false to accuse him of writing a different story when he expressly has said old WiaB isn't canon. We can accuse him of changing the canon of 1-3, but only once 4 is released. Until then, there is no change to measure or compare.

William can be emotional. We see it when he calls Daphne. If he was 100% asshole, well he wouldn't come back for his twin or parents/landlords. He's a caring sort who earns money from a novel ie: he can leave town for a few days on a whim to deal with things. Friends of mine regularly do the road trip excuse to get away from things. The issue of blood or not is a non event for empathy, empathy is based on character, not blood - some people have no empathy for their blood, other people's hearts bleed for the whole world.

ANd yes, we'll probably have to read from the start and pretend it's the first time once Ch4 is released. If it's good and coherent, well, that's the price of playing a game that's released as a work in progress. Thats a quirk/foible of Ocean's writing and development, and I can deal with it as a leech. I'll also pay the minute he puts it up for sale on steam.

"The no explanations" is actually fan expectations that are too impatient for the speed of the story teller, and yes, the speed is a problem. Ocan will explain them in time, or there will be a half assed story people will give up on, simple as that.

Uh my whole post was only about the new wiab version, nothing i said related to the old wiab so im not really sure where youre going with that?

William and Leia are Zane's in chapters 1-3, Katie and Ayua are Zane's in the official SG steam version, thats what im talking about. I mean of course Ocean could change EVERYTHING in retrospect like Ayua suddenly being a Cyrus (will the college be CPR than? ) but in this case we cant discuss/theory craft anything at all because nothing is set in stone, not even the things which are lol

And i accuse Ocean of nothing to be clear, im simply afraid that we will be kept in a unexplained mumbo jumbo because any kind of explantion would lead to troubles with patreon.

The quality of this avn and the characters and relationship development doesnt allow a cheap solution like a 2/5 stars dumb honey select harem game (well i guess we have the bimbo bodys already ).

I expect more from Wiab/SG/Ocean and hope he will surprise me/us with a great solution, maybe being sceptical now will help me to be less disappointed if he doesnt have the great solution in the end

 

[LHDLLB]

See the issue is how you percieve other people's motivations. If your twin called you and told you she needed you because your foster mother who raised you from age 3 had an accident, and you didn't have any work contract, just royalties as an income - why the hell wouldn't you go?

I mean, IF the redacted (we're not even certain of this) post is true - Leia and William have the sam relationship they always had, and Ocean changed the others for the sake of the story he wants to tell, because obviously William and Leia are still taboo. So this whole thing of ToS is not relevant. It's because Ocean wrote himself into a corner, and decided differently.

I mentioned this elsewhere, bet a couple of day ago someone I met once posted on social media they they were going to kill themselves. I found out too late, they were 5 min from my house. I saw the post 7 hours after. Someone who didn't know them dropped everything and drove over, kept them from killing themselves. There is kindness in the world (the person survived okay btw). People are triggered to act by all kinds of things. If a stranger can drop everything to save a life, I would drop my shit and try, I just found out too late to be useful.

I guess what I'm saying is that a story doesn't have to follow our expectations - none of us have all of what we want in life. William, can be flighty and just get in the car because of emotions. Logic is a poor way to understand human relationships.

Sure he can, I would. But will Helen be a foster parent ? A guardian ? The neighbor ? We don't know what Helen and Katie and Dylan will be. We don't know. The Leia situation is another thing entirely, we will have to wait and see what Ocean does to her because she does not make any sense. I understand that he may have written himself in a corner and changed things, that is fine but if so he need to change everything. Helen can't be and be his mom. Katie can't be and be his sister. Or we will have " A Race of Impossible Odds" for 5 LIs.

That is all good, I am not being cynical here, there is kindness in the world. But rescuing someone is quite a different thing than change your whole life for them.

 

[Darkdevil66]

Little do you know about me. Maybe I'm a WMV pro, maybe I'm just embarrassed to tell you guys, and I don't want to hear DD's grumbling about me ignoring PP but playing THIS.

 

[yossa999]

Ok, this is a load of shit. [...]

I started writing a sarcastic wall of text, attaching images of Miru on LSD as illustrations, but luckily I remembered in time that I am not allowed to write overly aggressive posts, and I seemed to have gotten a little worked up.

You are right about everything, bro, but unfortunately I see a completely different picture in reality regarding deadlines and development speeds. And even from the most famous developers of AVN.

So I don't know what to say, probably it's all about milking.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Uh my whole post was only about the new wiab version, nothing i said related to the old wiab so im not really sure where youre going with that?

William and Leia are Zane's in chapters 1-3, Katie and Ayua are Zane's in the official SG steam version, thats what im talking about. I mean of course Ocean could change EVERYTHING in retrospect like Ayua suddenly being a Cyrus (will the college be CPR than? ) but in this case we cant discuss/theory craft anything at all because nothing is set in stone, not even the things who are lol

And i accuse Ocean of nothing to be clear, im simply afraid that we will be kept in a unexplained mumbo jumbo because any kind of explantion would lead to troubles with patreon.

The quality of this avn and the characters and relationship development doesnt allow a cheap solution like a 2/5 stars dumb honey select harem game (well i guess we have the bimbo bodys already ).

I expect more from Wiab/SG/Ocean and hope he will surprise me/us with a great solution, maybe being sceptical now will help me to be less disappointed if he doesnt have the great solution in the end

Apologies if I'm making jumps in fuzzy logic - William and Leia can be Zanes and not blood related. If Leia is blood related to Willi, then Helen being their adoptive mother is no big deal. Porn logic says "well, why is she their adoptive or foster mother when we can have milf incest?". That is simply an assumption. If Willi and Leia don't know they're not Zane's by blood, the story still makes sense as it is.

I was joking about the Cyrus thing, it was more to say that we really don't know how the changes will play out, but it's not really a big gloom and doom issue. If the rationale makes sense, we'll be satisfied, unless the porn logic is more important to us than the narrative Ocean tells.

As far as ToS goes, the fact he implied Leia nad Willi are still related shows you it's not 100% a patreon issue. I think he's trying to make a more cohesive story rather than meeting every fetish/preference.

Sure he can, I would. But will Helen be a foster parent ? A guardian ? The neighbor ? We don't know what Helen and Katie and Dylan will be. We don't know. The Leia situation is another thing entirely, we will have to wait and see what Ocean does to her because she does not make any sense. I understand that he may have written himself in a corner and changed things, that is fine but if so he need to change everything. Helen can't be and be his mom. Katie can't be and be his sister. Or we will have " A Race of Impossible Odds" for 5 LIs.

That is all good, I am not being cynical here, there is kindness in the world. But rescuing someone is quite a different thing than change your whole life for them.

I'd say that making snap decisions is fine, plenty of people risk their future on a single decision. We don't know how much anyone feels about a subject/event, and in a story it is up to the author to persuade us of the situation and the characters. Leia hasn't changed. Ocean confirmed, then withdrew his statement apparently. So she's in exactly where she was before the devlog confused the issue. Helen is what? You're right. Ocean has to explain that. My guess is the render of the group hug with Katie, William and Helen might be about this moment of revelation. William might not know who he is. Comparison - my grandmother died without telling my dad who his father was. Stuff happens. The last line though, about the staus, that is purely based on the incest mindset, the porn logic. Helen is likely still a LI, Katie damn well better be a LI (because I have ...reasons). Helen can be an LI regardless. If Willi only finds out he's been raised by Helen and never knew, it'll fuck him up mentally, but right now he has the taboo. Helen doesn't have a taboo because she knows they're not related. Right now, that makes sense. Katie wouldn't know in that case either. Who knows if they spoke about William much after he was gone?

I still hold to the fact that people are holding onto the old storyline while Ocean is still expanding on the new one.

 

[Maviarab]

I still hold to the fact that people are holding onto the old storyline while Ocean is still expanding on the new one.

And that expanding storyline about who is family and related and who isn't...hadn't changed Bob...it had not changed at all...until that devlog.

I mean this in the best possible way....but I think a maybe a lie down and a step away from the forum might be a good idea mate....or less alcohol and more coffee

 

[yossa999]

Drunk Bob is definitely drunk Bob

Nah, drunk Bob is the best Bob!
And even when he's drunk, he gets the point across better than I do when I'm sober!

 

[LHDLLB]

Apologies if I'm making jumps in fuzzy logic - William and Leia can be Zanes and not blood related. If Leia is blood related to Willi, then Helen being their adoptive mother is no big deal. Porn logic says "well, why is she their adoptive or foster mother when we can have milf incest?". That is simply an assumption. If Willi and Leia don't know they're not Zane's by blood, the story still makes sense as it is.

I was joking about the Cyrus thing, it was more to say that we really don't know how the changes will play out, but it's not really a big gloom and doom issue. If the rationale makes sense, we'll be satisfied, unless the porn logic is more important to us than the narrative Ocean tells.

As far as ToS goes, the fact he implied Leia nad Willi are still related shows you it's not 100% a patreon issue. I think he's trying to make a more cohesive story rather than meeting every fetish/preference.



I'd say that making snap decisions is fine, plenty of people risk their future on a single decision. We don't know how much anyone feels about a subject/event, and in a story it is up to the author to persuade us of the situation and the characters. Leia hasn't changed. Ocean confirmed, then withdrew his statement apparently. So she's in exactly where she was before the devlog confused the issue. Helen is what? You're right. Ocean has to explain that. My guess is the render of the group hug with Katie, William and Helen might be about this moment of revelation. William might not know who he is. Comparison - my grandmother died without telling my dad who his father was. Stuff happens. The last line though, about the staus, that is purely based on the incest mindset, the porn logic. Helen is likely still a LI, Katie damn well better be a LI (because I have ...reasons). Helen can be an LI regardless. If Willi only finds out he's been raised by Helen and never knew, it'll fuck him up mentally, but right now he has the taboo. Helen doesn't have a taboo because she knows they're not related. Right now, that makes sense. Katie wouldn't know in that case either. Who knows if they spoke about William much after he was gone?

I still hold to the fact that people are holding onto the old storyline while Ocean is still expanding on the new one.

The thing is that William does not make a snap decision, he made a very deliberated one. I don't think that is a porn logic thing. If in the next update we learn that Helen is not his mother or the like it is fine. My problem is the story completely ignoring what she is. And we get what we get in SG, she is ... something, don't think too much about it.

Yeah, because is the only thing we got, once Ch4 drops we can hate or love it but until then we only have old storyline.

 

[Adhdclassic]

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First picture-William ask Zooey why is there 3 cups of coffee are we waiting for someone.
Last picture-Zooey ask William "so when am I getting that dick"

 

[Krytax123]

Apologies if I'm making jumps in fuzzy logic - William and Leia can be Zanes and not blood related. If Leia is blood related to Willi, then Helen being their adoptive mother is no big deal. Porn logic says "well, why is she their adoptive or foster mother when we can have milf incest?". That is simply an assumption. If Willi and Leia don't know they're not Zane's by blood, the story still makes sense as it is.

I was joking about the Cyrus thing, it was more to say that we really don't know how the changes will play out, but it's not really a big gloom and doom issue. If the rationale makes sense, we'll be satisfied, unless the porn logic is more important to us than the narrative Ocean tells.

As far as ToS goes, the fact he implied Leia nad Willi are still related shows you it's not 100% a patreon issue. I think he's trying to make a more cohesive story rather than meeting every fetish/preference.

I like to discuss with you but im really really really unable to see how you got to THAT conclusion. It just becomes less and less cohesive.

Lets be honest, if he would change the stuff because of your logic, he would (and should) just get rid of the incest completly.

Helen, Dylan, Leia, William and Katie being all Zane's and a family and none of them are LI's/lewdable (no incest anymore). The story would be cohesive and logical and you could build up on that. Everything would be realistic and reasonable, you can may even keep the past incest with Leia for story purposes why he left and everything. Katie could be a neighbour/childhood friend so she could still be a LI.

Thats the solution to make it more cohesive.

What were getting is the opposite and imo its to keep the incest in the game but without real incest, there's really nothing cohesive about it. It fact it becomes stupid due to it.

And about the adoption stuff, i already said in the first post you quoted that i would be 100% fine with willy and leia being adopted but i doubt it will be a simple solution like that because it doesnt change anything about the incest (it still is and lets be honest thats why Nika and Nami arent simply adopted by Noji either).

To me it seems like Ocean desperatly tries to bend the story to make esp Helen fuckable without it counting as offical incest, its like the whole logic of the universe bends its rules to make willy able to put his dick everywhere

"Hmmm we want Willy to fuck his busty mom but its kinda wrong ... what could we do? I got it! Shes not his mom anymore!" Thats how it feels at this point to me. And thats honestly how Wiab chapter 1-3 feels without the incest patch.

Edit: Its imo one of Ocean's outstanding abilitys that he is able to write very good character and relationship development which makes it even more sad when he destroys/damages his relationships with stuff like that. The Nojiko situation annoys me too tbh

 

[BobTheDuck]

And that expanding storyline about who is family and related and who isn't...hadn't changed Bob...it had not changed at all...until that devlog.

I mean this in the best possible way....but I think a maybe a lie down and a step away from the forum might be a good idea mate....or less alcohol and more coffee

You're right. Whisky, and late night musings while everyone else is in their day or whatever....

Currently we have CH3, and it makes sense. We don't have Ch4, only a redacted devlog that threw a stone in the road of our thoughts. Ch4 playable shows what Ocean will do, not any of our theories.

...I'll sleep before coffe though. Just emoji coffee

Nah, drunk Bob is the best Bob!
And even when he's drunk, he gets the point across better than I do when I'm sober!

#teamalwayshavebeen

The thing is that William does not make a snap decision, he made a very deliberated one. I don't think that is a porn logic thing. If in the next update we learn that Helen is not his mother or the like it is fine. My problem is the story completely ignoring what she is. And we get what we get in SG, she is ... something, don't think too much about it.

Yeah, because is the only thing we got, once Ch4 drops we can hate or love it but until then we only have old storyline.

I'm pretty sure he agreed to Leia straight way, then worked it out with Miru. Then once there, he decides to move back. He reacts in the moment, like he creampies Mon, then walks away with whatever revelation he has. His history is acting in the moment without thinking through.

Willi literally has Leia ask him three times in the phone conversation to come home because SHE needs him.



There's no discussion with Miru, no working things out. He drops his plans because of his twin. Which hasn't changed. Her excuse is Helen, but she guilt trips him with HER need of him. Willi asks about Helen, and Leia is vague and keeps deflecting with needing Him back now. Emotional leverage, knowing he gets emotional and will give in.

I like to discuss with you but im really really really unable how you got to THAT conclusion. It just becomes less and less cohesive.

Lets be honest, if he would change the stuff because of your logic, he would (and should) just get rid of the incest completly.

Helen, Dylan, Leia, William and Katie being all Zane's and a family and none of them are LI's/lewdable (no incest anymore). The story would be cohesive and logical and you could build up on that. Everything would be realistic and reasonable, you can may even keep the past incest with Leia for story purposes why he left and everything. Katie could be a neighbour/childhood friend so she could still be a LI.

Thats the solution to make it more cohesive.

What were getting is the opposite and imo its to keep the incest in the game but without real incest, there's really nothing cohesive about it. It fact it becomes stupid due to it.

And about the adoption stuff, i already said in the first post you quoted that i would be 100% fine with willy and leia being adopted but i doubt it will be a simple solution like that because it doesnt change anything about the incest (it still is).

To me it seems like Ocean desperatly tries to bend the story to make esp Helen fuckable without it counting as offical incest, its like the whole logic of the universe bends its rules to make willy able to put his dick everywhere

"Hmmm we want Willy to fuck his busty mom but its kinda wrong ... what could we do? I got it! Shes not his mom anymore!" Thats how it feels at this point to me. And thats honestly how Wiab chapter 1-3 feels without the incest patch.

Edit: Its imo one of Ocean's outstanding abilitys that he is able to write very good character and relationship development which makes it even more sad when he destroys his relationships with stuff like that. The Nojiko situation annoys me too tbh

See that's the thing, Ocean by having Leia as a relative says WiaB has potential incest. So adoption then is because adoption suits the story he wishes to tell. What if the change ISN'T completely about santising WiaB, but because it was getting more cumbersome to the way he's developing the antagonist, or the NTR aspect? We really don't know until we see it, but if Leia is blood, then it's a change of the broader arc of the story, not for the fetish getting in the way.

So to extrapolate on your Helen thing - Willi feels it's wrong, Helen doesn't. If he doesn't know he's adopted, that explains the weirdness. Or a million other avenues. I'm okay with seeing how Ocean pulls it together. He does have the subtlety to make it work without changing anything, even if in some cases he misses really obvious things, and is unsubtle with cup sizes and gratuitious nipple rings...

Siegbert scratch it all, nah, we're all doomed!!!

 

[Krytax123]

See that's the thing, Ocean by having Leia as a relative says WiaB has potential incest. So adoption then is because adoption suits the story he wishes to tell. What if the change ISN'T completely about santising WiaB, but because it was getting more cumbersome to the way he's developing the antagonist, or the NTR aspect? We really don't know until we see it, but if Leia is blood, then it's a change of the broader arc of the story, not for the fetish getting in the way.

So to extrapolate on your Helen thing - Willi feels it's wrong, Helen doesn't. If he doesn't know he's adopted, that explains the weirdness. Or a million other avenues. I'm okay with seeing how Ocean pulls it together. He does have the subtlety to make it work without changing anything, even if in some cases he misses really obvious things, and is unsubtle with cup sizes and gratuitious nipple rings...

Siegbert scratch it all, nah, we're all doomed!!!

As i said, i if we get a adoption storyline im 100% good with it (that said it should still maybe feel wrong/weird for a adoptive mom to wanna fuck her adoptive son ).

I just hope youre right and its a easy and more or less simple change like that (from blood related to adopted) and he will clarify that (the relations). I simply doubt it and dont share your optimism towards that, imo its way more reasonable that its incest/patreon related and a similar deal like the Nika/Nami/Noji situation.

My first thought was that it was to get rid of incest in SG but it would only change something if Nami would be Katie's daughter (or Helen's ) or im missing something.

 

[LHDLLB]

You're right. Whisky, and late night musings while everyone else is in their day or whatever....

Currently we have CH3, and it makes sense. We don't have Ch4, only a redacted devlog that threw a stone in the road of our thoughts. Ch4 playable shows what Ocean will do, not any of our theories.

...I'll sleep before coffe though. Just emoji coffee



#teamalwayshavebeen



I'm pretty sure he agreed to Leia straight way, then worked it out with Miru. Then once there, he decides to move back. He reacts in the moment, like he creampies Mon, then walks away with whatever revelation he has. His history is acting in the moment without thinking through.

Willi literally has Leia ask him three times in the phone conversation to come home because SHE needs him.

View attachment 4423268 View attachment 4423269 View attachment 4423270 View attachment 4423271

There's no discussion with Miru, no working things out. He drops his plans because of his twin. Which hasn't changed. Her excuse is Helen, but she guilt trips him with HER need of him. Willi asks about Helen, and Leia is vague and keeps deflecting with needing Him back now. Emotional leverage, knowing he gets emotional and will give in.



See that's the thing, Ocean by having Leia as a relative says WiaB has potential incest. So adoption then is because adoption suits the story he wishes to tell. What if the change ISN'T completely about santising WiaB, but because it was getting more cumbersome to the way he's developing the antagonist, or the NTR aspect? We really don't know until we see it, but if Leia is blood, then it's a change of the broader arc of the story, not for the fetish getting in the way.

So to extrapolate on your Helen thing - Willi feels it's wrong, Helen doesn't. If he doesn't know he's adopted, that explains the weirdness. Or a million other avenues. I'm okay with seeing how Ocean pulls it together. He does have the subtlety to make it work without changing anything, even if in some cases he misses really obvious things, and is unsubtle with cup sizes and gratuitious nipple rings...

Siegbert scratch it all, nah, we're all doomed!!!

Sure but he still has a day to leave, he spends that day thinking about it and still chooses to go. He did not drop everything and is in Wollust. Not denying any of what you said but he has time to think if is something that he really wants to do.