VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [S1 Ch.4 Fix 1 Steam] [Oceanlab]

[shenlao]

I don't hate Leia. I don't even give a shit if she's a criminal

Well almost all characters are criminal tho. Even our lovely Miru is killer by nature.

 

[Capt_Kirk]

Oh it hasn't! Ch4 took away any and all interest I had in Miru and Katie but it has nothing to do with their looks. They still look mostly fine. And I say mostly because I find nipple piercings disgusting.

This are the only piercings that should be allowed !

 

[Dr.TSoni]

I don't hate Leia. I don't even give a shit if she's a criminal. I just think she's a crackhead for doing all of this shit because her childhood friend left her. Even after he told her part of the reason, she's still on some bullshit. Meanwhile, you have Monica. Someone who actually suffered something horrible at Williams hand only really resenting him for it. Not actually hating him. Even though she really should. But she forgave him at the bar since he put the effort forward. The same effort he tried with Leia but she wants to play games with the whole cold and detached act. And the crazy part is Leia did horrible shit to other people, including Monica. Yet, she wants to spiral because her orphan buddy left her?

Being sexy doesn't really work for me, if you're just awful to interact with. While she may be entitled to her feelings and act however she wants. I'm also entitled to not really give a fuck about her issues, if she's going to behave that way. Besides the money from doing business with Zoey and helping Katie, William doesn't owe anything to Leia. Even if she thinks he does. It's such a shame really because she was one of my favorites in the original version. But after the remake and then the rewrite, she's just been meh. She'll have to join Miru in the whatever basket.

The only thing I don't agree with is that Monica forgave him.

Well almost all characters are criminal tho. Even our lovely Miru is killer by nature.

True, but for Leia it's been like this since chapter one, for the others crime is a status that came into force only in the last chapter.

 

[AlexGabriel]

A Promising Game

 

[BobTheDuck]

True, but for Leia it's been like this since chapter one, for the others crime is a status that came into force only in the last chapter.

Not true. Miru's been a criminal the whole time. Joe's been in prison for his gang the whole time. Willy knew about the guns the whole time. From Ch3 we find out about the drugs...which everyone knows about, thanks Dylan: "hey let's go help at the farm!" Gina's had a brother in a gang the whole time. Dana's brother's in prison for being criminal. Scarlet was always suspect for geting drugs from the hospital for Joe. Kat, well, her dad's in jail and he runs a gang. All of this existed before Ch4.

Dana, Daphne, Zoey and Mon seem to be the ones who have a relatively clean sheet, both before and during Ch4. Of those, we know nothing Daphne's background really, but she was there when it went down (somethig with William). We know Mon thinks Dana shouldn't be getting so many criminals off the hook. So Zoey and Mon, with Zoey going to the farm to help.

So the only ones not compromised before Ch4 is Mon. She remains uncompromised, but would have to be blind after Ch4.

The only thing that changed was the reason for the crime. Before it was Joe at the center of the Zane's criminal troubles.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Not true. Miru's been a criminal the whole time. Joe's been in prison for his gang the whole time. Willy knew about the guns the whole time. From Ch3 we find out about the drugs...which everyone knows about, thanks Dylan: "hey let's go help at the farm!" Gina's had a brother in a gang the whole time. Dana's brother's in prison for being criminal. Scarlet was always suspect for geting drugs from the hospital for Joe. Kat, well, her dad's in jail and he runs a gang. All of this existed before Ch4.

Dana, Daphne, Zoey and Mon seem to be the ones who have a relatively clean sheet, both before and during Ch4. Of those, we know nothing Daphne's background really, but she was there when it went down (somethig with William). We know Mon thinks Dana shouldn't be getting so many criminals off the hook. So Zoey and Mon, with Zoey going to the farm to help.

So the only ones not compromised before Ch4 is Mon. She remains uncompromised, but would have to be blind after Ch4.

The only thing that changed was the reason for the crime. Before it was Joe at the center of the Zane's criminal troubles.

Come on, Bob, you're overanalyzing. Almost all the characters you mentioned aren't even secondary; they're tertiary and mostly serve as background for "important" characters.
As borderline as Scarlet was, she was pissed off about what Joe had done.
Miru has always had a criminal past, but it's mentioned that she hid her real name so her old life wouldn't find her. Obviously, the problem arises when someone who seems to be fleeing that life (like Willy now) has thrown himself back into it with extreme enthusiasm (like Willy now).

 

[X2JZcf]

Come on, Bob, you're overanalyzing. Almost all the characters you mentioned aren't even secondary; they're tertiary and mostly serve as background for "important" characters.
As borderline as Scarlet was, she was pissed off about what Joe had done.
Miru has always had a criminal past, but it's mentioned that she hid her real name so her old life wouldn't find her. Obviously, the problem arises when someone who seems to be fleeing that life (like Willy now) has thrown himself back into it with extreme enthusiasm (like Willy now).

A drug lord’s mafia family involved in gun trafficking, btw

 

[BobTheDuck]

Come on, Bob, you're overanalyzing. Almost all the characters you mentioned aren't even secondary; they're tertiary and mostly serve as background for "important" characters.
As borderline as Scarlet was, she was pissed off about what Joe had done.
Miru has always had a criminal past, but it's mentioned that she hid her real name so her old life wouldn't find her. Obviously, the problem arises when someone who seems to be fleeing that life (like Willy now) has thrown himself back into it with extreme enthusiasm (like Willy now).

All I'm saying is that Joe was the head of criminality until Ch4, and each of the main LI's had close ties to someone who was either criminal or in jail. Sure Miru had cut ties, but even at the end of Ch3 we see she's still ready to get her hands dirty and jump in the middle of a turf war with Asavera, Leia and Krayt. Gina's specifically looking for non legal ways to deal with Krayt, because she's had enough of Monica's friends in blue being unable to do anything. Willi might not have had a specifically criminal past because he was falsely accused in the Ch3 backstory, but he still had memories of Uncle Joe's caches, he's quick to wonder about Scarlet's involvement with the drugs, and he spent enough time in jail to know he can get away beating up a thug in a toilet. There's no need for me to go over it all again, but the previous story had more than one criminal, and crime was a central part of the plot. Once we found out about Leia looking after and expanding Joe's empire in Ch3, it was a given that more people were involved. Helen's accident was still being considered as possibly some criminal element trying to target Leia and Willi.

In real terms, nothing has changed except for why they are organised criminals (and how they're so well orginised) rather than freelancers

A drug lord’s mafia family involved in gun trafficking, btw

Back in that chapter, I thought it was simply Joe's club's armoury, not something they traded. Would be very surprised to see a gang/club without any stash of weapons.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

A drug lord’s mafia family involved in gun trafficking, btw
View attachment 5269977
View attachment 5269978
View attachment 5269980

The mafia uses weapons... and since when?

In real terms, nothing has changed except for why they are organised criminals (and how they're so well orginised) rather than freelancers

In short, there is the same difference between an amateur football match and a Serie A one.

 

[X2JZcf]

The mafia uses weapons... and since when?

Shocking. We will evaluate it with our judges.

 

[BobTheDuck]

In short, there is the same difference between an amateur football match and a Serie A one.

Sure. But it's still the same way to score a goal.

I'm mainly objecting to the idea that crime wasn't in force for anyone but Leia prior to chapter 4. We had a drug lab, Willi knows half his family are complicit or tolerate it. Joe might be a side character, but prior to Ch4 was regular funny Uncle Joe who was in prison for being a criminal. It's always been there, amateur crims still get sent to jail.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Shocking. We will evaluate it with our judges.
View attachment 5270022

We urgently need Giuseppe's guidance

Sure. But it's still the same way to score a goal.

I'm mainly objecting to the idea that crime wasn't in force for anyone but Leia prior to chapter 4. We had a drug lab, Willi knows half his family are complicit or tolerate it. Joe might be a side character, but prior to Ch4 was regular funny Uncle Joe who was in prison for being a criminal. It's always been there, amateur crims still get sent to jail.

Sure, crime has always been a big part of the plot, but the "our daughter/sister has gone down a bad path that I don't approve of, but I don't want to see her dead" dynamic is a huge difference from the "we're really disappointed that you're doing our job when for some reason we're not."

 

[BobTheDuck]

True, but for Leia it's been like this since chapter one, for the others crime is a status that came into force only in the last chapter.

Sure, crime has always been a big part of the plot, but the "our daughter/sister has gone down a bad path that I don't approve of, but I don't want to see her dead" dynamic is a huge difference from the "we're really disappointed that you're doing our job when for some reason we're not."

Nah, it's always been Leia following Joe's bad example. Multiple criminals and a criminal empire. Even in the steam blurb, the criminal empire existed a long time before Ch4 dropped. I'd just assumed we'd find out all the skeletons in everyone's closet, slowly, along the way, instead of the massive italian leather upholstery job.

 

[sorco2003]

Nah, it's always been Leia following Joe's bad example. Multiple criminals and a criminal empire. Even in the steam blurb, the criminal empire existed a long time before Ch4 dropped. I'd just assumed we'd find out all the skeletons in everyone's closet, slowly, along the way, instead of the massive italian leather upholstery job.

Just because the explanation fits now, doesn't mean it was always this way. I am surprised lately at the superhuman efforts you are making, when Ocean simply said "everything changed". Even admitting that a tertiary aspect of the story had to be moved to a primary one in order for the project to be viable and continue.

 

[Talmadge]

Just because the explanation fits now, doesn't mean it was always this way. I am surprised lately at the superhuman efforts you are making, when Ocean simply said "everything changed". Even admitting that a tertiary aspect of the story had to be moved to a primary one in order for the project to be viable and continue.

Didn't they say as much in chapter 2 that they think a rival gang caused Helen's accident? The word rival tells me that they've been in the criminal world all that time. Plus, when William discusses his past, he tells about how the Zane's took him and Leia in as a kind of payment from their families after the two's parents were all killed. That says that the Zane's were always into criminal acts. Sure. It wasn't discussed what all that criminal acts entailed. But drugs, guns, and even prostitution is a staple of Mob life.

 

[sorco2003]

Didn't they say as much in chapter 2 that they think a rival gang caused Helen's accident? The word rival tells me that they've been in the criminal world all that time. Plus, when William discusses his past, he tells about how the Zane's took him and Leia in as a kind of payment from their families after the two's parents were all killed. That says that the Zane's were always into criminal acts. Sure. It wasn't discussed what all that criminal acts entailed. But drugs, guns, and even prostitution is a staple of Mob life.

Gang world versus maffia world. It's a difference from day to night, a retired biker gang versus a mafia family in their low hours.

 

[Turret]

Not true. Miru's been a criminal the whole time. Joe's been in prison for his gang the whole time. Willy knew about the guns the whole time. From Ch3 we find out about the drugs...which everyone knows about, thanks Dylan: "hey let's go help at the farm!" Gina's had a brother in a gang the whole time. Dana's brother's in prison for being criminal. Scarlet was always suspect for geting drugs from the hospital for Joe. Kat, well, her dad's in jail and he runs a gang. All of this existed before Ch4.

Dana, Daphne, Zoey and Mon seem to be the ones who have a relatively clean sheet, both before and during Ch4. Of those, we know nothing Daphne's background really, but she was there when it went down (somethig with William). We know Mon thinks Dana shouldn't be getting so many criminals off the hook. So Zoey and Mon, with Zoey going to the farm to help.

So the only ones not compromised before Ch4 is Mon. She remains uncompromised, but would have to be blind after Ch4.

The only thing that changed was the reason for the crime. Before it was Joe at the center of the Zane's criminal troubles.

The biggest fuck-up Ocean storywise did beside the ultra-stupid "noone is related to anybody"(which I will never forgive since it was unnecessary! Only because certain characters had to remain LI in Ocean´s mind he made this pile of manure) is sucking nearly all important characters into this criminal enterprise!
In old Wiab and new Wiab until ch.3, the Zane family and their friends were at the "outskirts" of criminal stuff. They might have had criminal members like Joe and knew about his shenigans, but they were lawful themselves. Dylan had several well-running work shops, Leia had her night clubs/restaurants, stripper clubs and prostitution (which is legal in Wollust), Zoey and Stefan the family paper mill and newpaper, Gina the family coffee shop and so on.
One thing which was great in the old Wiab, you could decide yourself how much you wanted to go towards or avoid the crimninal underbelly of the Zane family. You could get closer to Uncle Joe or help Leia pushing back Krayt with legal/half-legal means, for instance.

That is all gone with most characters being mustache twirling 2D cliches now.

 

[Talmadge]

Gang world versus maffia world. It's a difference from day to night, a retired biker gang versus a mafia family in their low hours.

It is said that Uncle Joe was the head of the biker gang. Not the whole Zane family. It is implied early on that the Zane's are high on the food chain. Higher than a biker gang. Or, at least that's what I read out of it. I forget his name, Helen's husband is hinted at early on to be a big shot, is he not? Mafia usually has gangs working for them. The Zane family has Uncle Joe's biker gang working for them.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Gang world versus maffia world. It's a difference from day to night, a retired biker gang versus a mafia family in their low hours.

This is my point. The scale has changed, the family has changed. The criminal aspects have been ramped up. Leia was not the only crim before Ch4.

What blows my mind is that everyone here thinks legal law abiding people go to the farm to check out their secret drug labs.

Scarlet, Dylan and Helen knew all about it before the rework. They also knew where Leia got the club from. Those two things are still the same. Gina's issues are still the same. verything has now being tied up in a big 'organised crime' bow rather than 'entrepreneur'. In old old Ch6, we were still trying to find out why the crazy secret criminal organisation was targeting Helen, and it seems she went undercover walking the streets with someone? Forgotten the exact details, and it's irrelevant. Crime has always been a central part. Now it's the main (and almost only) part.

It is said that Uncle Joe was the head of the biker gang. Not the whole Zane family. It is implied early on that the Zane's are high on the food chain. Higher than a biker gang. Or, at least that's what I read out of it. I forget his name, Helen's husband is hinted at early on to be a big shot, is he not? Mafia usually has gangs working for them. The Zane family has Uncle Joe's biker gang working for them.

For what I'm talking about, I'm referencing what happened in Ch1-3 before Ch4 came out in case it's not clear. Some early dialogues were changed/expanded in Ch1-3 with the Ch4 release.

 

[sorco2003]

It is said that Uncle Joe was the head of the biker gang. Not the whole Zane family. It is implied early on that the Zane's are high on the food chain. Higher than a biker gang. Or, at least that's what I read out of it. I forget his name, Helen's husband is hinted at early on to be a big shot, is he not? Mafia usually has gangs working for them. The Zane family has Uncle Joe's biker gang working for them.

In the old canon, none of that mattered, Dylan was retired, Joe was active, so the only real point of conflict was Leia, who wanted to set herself up as a queenpin. Now in the current canon, the whole family is part of the mafia, a mafia that was only going to enter as an explanatory element in the old canon through the resolution of the Helen mystery.
What's this all about? The fact that the story changed means that trying to unite the old canon with the new canon as something organic and natural is wrong, since not even the author himself tries to do that.