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BobTheDuck
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Not true. Miru's been a criminal the whole time. Joe's been in prison for his gang the whole time. Willy knew about the guns the whole time. From Ch3 we find out about the drugs...which everyone knows about, thanks Dylan: "hey let's go help at the farm!" Gina's had a brother in a gang the whole time. Dana's brother's in prison for being criminal. Scarlet was always suspect for geting drugs from the hospital for Joe. Kat, well, her dad's in jail and he runs a gang. All of this existed before Ch4.
Dana, Daphne, Zoey and Mon seem to be the ones who have a relatively clean sheet, both before and during Ch4. Of those, we know nothing Daphne's background really, but she was there when it went down (somethig with William). We know Mon thinks Dana shouldn't be getting so many criminals off the hook. So Zoey and Mon, with Zoey going to the farm to help.
So the only ones not compromised before Ch4 is Mon. She remains uncompromised, but would have to be blind after Ch4.
The only thing that changed was the reason for the crime. Before it was Joe at the center of the Zane's criminal troubles.
Dr.TSoni
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Come on, Bob, you're overanalyzing. Almost all the characters you mentioned aren't even secondary; they're tertiary and mostly serve as background for "important" characters.
As borderline as Scarlet was, she was pissed off about what Joe had done.
Miru has always had a criminal past, but it's mentioned that she hid her real name so her old life wouldn't find her. Obviously, the problem arises when someone who seems to be fleeing that life (like Willy now) has thrown himself back into it with extreme enthusiasm (like Willy now).
X2JZcf
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BobTheDuck
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All I'm saying is that Joe was the head of criminality until Ch4, and each of the main LI's had close ties to someone who was either criminal or in jail. Sure Miru had cut ties, but even at the end of Ch3 we see she's still ready to get her hands dirty and jump in the middle of a turf war with Asavera, Leia and Krayt. Gina's specifically looking for non legal ways to deal with Krayt, because she's had enough of Monica's friends in blue being unable to do anything. Willi might not have had a specifically criminal past because he was falsely accused in the Ch3 backstory, but he still had memories of Uncle Joe's caches, he's quick to wonder about Scarlet's involvement with the drugs, and he spent enough time in jail to know he can get away beating up a thug in a toilet. There's no need for me to go over it all again, but the previous story had more than one criminal, and crime was a central part of the plot. Once we found out about Leia looking after and expanding Joe's empire in Ch3, it was a given that more people were involved. Helen's accident was still being considered as possibly some criminal element trying to target Leia and Willi.
In real terms, nothing has changed except for why they are organised criminals (and how they're so well orginised) rather than freelancers
Back in that chapter, I thought it was simply Joe's club's armoury, not something they traded. Would be very surprised to see a gang/club without any stash of weapons.A drug lord’s mafia family involved in gun trafficking, btw
Dr.TSoni
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The mafia uses weapons... and since when?A drug lord’s mafia family involved in gun trafficking, btw
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In short, there is the same difference between an amateur football match and a Serie A one.In real terms, nothing has changed except for why they are organised criminals (and how they're so well orginised) rather than freelancers
X2JZcf
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BobTheDuck
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Sure. But it's still the same way to score a goal.
I'm mainly objecting to the idea that crime wasn't in force for anyone but Leia prior to chapter 4. We had a drug lab, Willi knows half his family are complicit or tolerate it. Joe might be a side character, but prior to Ch4 was regular funny Uncle Joe who was in prison for being a criminal. It's always been there, amateur crims still get sent to jail.
Dr.TSoni
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We urgently need Giuseppe's guidance
Sure, crime has always been a big part of the plot, but the "our daughter/sister has gone down a bad path that I don't approve of, but I don't want to see her dead" dynamic is a huge difference from the "we're really disappointed that you're doing our job when for some reason we're not."
BobTheDuck
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Nah, it's always been Leia following Joe's bad example. Multiple criminals and a criminal empire. Even in the steam blurb, the criminal empire existed a long time before Ch4 dropped. I'd just assumed we'd find out all the skeletons in everyone's closet, slowly, along the way, instead of the massive italian leather upholstery job.
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Just because the explanation fits now, doesn't mean it was always this way. I am surprised lately at the superhuman efforts you are making, when Ocean simply said "everything changed". Even admitting that a tertiary aspect of the story had to be moved to a primary one in order for the project to be viable and continue.
Talmadge
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Didn't they say as much in chapter 2 that they think a rival gang caused Helen's accident? The word rival tells me that they've been in the criminal world all that time. Plus, when William discusses his past, he tells about how the Zane's took him and Leia in as a kind of payment from their families after the two's parents were all killed. That says that the Zane's were always into criminal acts. Sure. It wasn't discussed what all that criminal acts entailed. But drugs, guns, and even prostitution is a staple of Mob life.
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Gang world versus maffia world. It's a difference from day to night, a retired biker gang versus a mafia family in their low hours.
The biggest fuck-up Ocean storywise did beside the ultra-stupid "noone is related to anybody"(which I will never forgive since it was unnecessary! Only because certain characters had to remain LI in Ocean´s mind he made this pile of manure) is sucking nearly all important characters into this criminal enterprise!
In old Wiab and new Wiab until ch.3, the Zane family and their friends were at the "outskirts" of criminal stuff. They might have had criminal members like Joe and knew about his shenigans, but they were lawful themselves. Dylan had several well-running work shops, Leia had her night clubs/restaurants, stripper clubs and prostitution (which is legal in Wollust), Zoey and Stefan the family paper mill and newpaper, Gina the family coffee shop and so on.
One thing which was great in the old Wiab, you could decide yourself how much you wanted to go towards or avoid the crimninal underbelly of the Zane family. You could get closer to Uncle Joe or help Leia pushing back Krayt with legal/half-legal means, for instance.
That is all gone with most characters being mustache twirling 2D cliches now.
Talmadge
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It is said that Uncle Joe was the head of the biker gang. Not the whole Zane family. It is implied early on that the Zane's are high on the food chain. Higher than a biker gang. Or, at least that's what I read out of it. I forget his name, Helen's husband is hinted at early on to be a big shot, is he not? Mafia usually has gangs working for them. The Zane family has Uncle Joe's biker gang working for them.
BobTheDuck
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This is my point. The scale has changed, the family has changed. The criminal aspects have been ramped up. Leia was not the only crim before Ch4.
What blows my mind is that everyone here thinks legal law abiding people go to the farm to check out their secret drug labs.
Scarlet, Dylan and Helen knew all about it before the rework. They also knew where Leia got the club from. Those two things are still the same. Gina's issues are still the same. verything has now being tied up in a big 'organised crime' bow rather than 'entrepreneur'. In old old Ch6, we were still trying to find out why the crazy secret criminal organisation was targeting Helen, and it seems she went undercover walking the streets with someone? Forgotten the exact details, and it's irrelevant. Crime has always been a central part. Now it's the main (and almost only) part.
For what I'm talking about, I'm referencing what happened in Ch1-3 before Ch4 came out in case it's not clear. Some early dialogues were changed/expanded in Ch1-3 with the Ch4 release.
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In the old canon, none of that mattered, Dylan was retired, Joe was active, so the only real point of conflict was Leia, who wanted to set herself up as a queenpin. Now in the current canon, the whole family is part of the mafia, a mafia that was only going to enter as an explanatory element in the old canon through the resolution of the Helen mystery.
What's this all about? The fact that the story changed means that trying to unite the old canon with the new canon as something organic and natural is wrong, since not even the author himself tries to do that.
Dr.TSoni
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But with the change in scale, the threat was bound to increase. Let's be honest, even the mere suspicion that the Krayts, over some beef with Joe, had attempted to kill a Boss would be enough to eliminate anyone who wears their colors. In the hierarchical scale in which the game is played now, the Krayts should be nothing; there's no question of them being a threat or even taking over territory.
The only one was Dylan, all the others know nothingWhat blows my mind is that everyone here thinks legal law abiding people go to the farm to check out their secret drug labs.
BobTheDuck
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Remember that scene where Willi confronts Scarlet and Helen about it and Scarlet basically deflects? She knew exactly what was going on. It was Joe's, like weapons cache, like the nightclub. Before Leia, Joe was saving up for Kat's uni with the drug lab, and with the nightclub. Leia was looking after it while he was imprisoned. THey all knew about the gun caches. Do you think Scarlet was defending her husband, or was it more like, 'well he poked his head up too much'.
It was all there. Katie was innocent of this stuff before, but then, she knew about Asavera, and what Leia was doing, and they all knew about Joe. Joe wasn't hiding much from the Zanes in Ch1-3, really. One of the things about the OG that was great, is we didn't know who to trust, who knew what. Since Ch4, that's changed, and now it's all outlined.
Yes it's a different plot, but the criminal elements were always through there, and I was always keen to discover what was going on behind the scenes.
Talmadge
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I agree with you, Bob. I didn't play much of it in the old work. I have so many games that I bounce around from one to the other, sometimes not playing one for over 6 months. I didn't get into this one until really after this re-work was done. Then I bought it on Steam, played through the game this time to the end of the latest update.This is my point. The scale has changed, the family has changed. The criminal aspects have been ramped up. Leia was not the only crim before Ch4.
What blows my mind is that everyone here thinks legal law abiding people go to the farm to check out their secret drug labs.
Scarlet, Dylan and Helen knew all about it before the rework. They also knew where Leia got the club from. Those two things are still the same. Gina's issues are still the same. verything has now being tied up in a big 'organised crime' bow rather than 'entrepreneur'. In old old Ch6, we were still trying to find out why the crazy secret criminal organisation was targeting Helen, and it seems she went undercover walking the streets with someone? Forgotten the exact details, and it's irrelevant. Crime has always been a central part. Now it's the main (and almost only) part.
For what I'm talking about, I'm referencing what happened in Ch1-3 before Ch4 came out in case it's not clear. Some early dialogues were changed/expanded in Ch1-3 with the Ch4 release.
My point was that it doesn't make since some of these people are trying to say that the family just now started into the crime world. Or, that's how they read to me. It makes much better since that they've always been in it. And I don't mean just a lowly bikers. I, for one, like the way it is working out now. Don't make their criminal lives just an afterthought or something to be reviled later on. I like that Ocean made it a central part of the plot. It gives credence to why they are being targeted. Some rival group trying to take them out and take over their territory makes much more sense to me.