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Haha that is funny, I was just writing the same in my previous post. But I used netflix, as I think it is clearer as an example.
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Exactly. it is not specified what he should provide in that service, except access to the posts. But it is neither specified what it should be in the post or how often they should be released.Damn, you ninja-edited me. XD
Seems like we mostly agree then, no?He provides a service, and anyone who pays him for those services would be a consumer. Theoretically. Pretty sure there is no case-law on point.
In fact, I am confident you could write a patreon with no rewards. No post or anything. An actual charity or tip char. You would pay taxes on those, but there is no specified product.
Why do we give waitress taxes? For their service. What did the service provide? Bringing food sure. Being nice? Sure. Politeness? A blowjob under the table? I wish. Point is without an actual point by point rules of transaction, patreon is nothing more than a charity, given some task you say that you do. No proof. If people magically trust you, you are golden.
jamdan
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The only reason the games have separate patreon pages is because SG used to be developed by his friend, who I believe is still the thread owner. But Ocean didn't like the quality so he kicked his friend out and took over production himself.
As for the bottleneck and update frequency debate. I stand by what I said a few pages ago. I don't think it matters what equipment Ocean has. Or what he uses for renders ( Blender, Daz, Octane etc). If he gets better equipment, he'll just do more stuff. Cinematics. More animations. Rework more stuff and make the new stuff even more complex. He can't help himself.
That also means it doesn't matter how much money he makes from the games. He isn't going to hire someone else to help him in any meaningful way. Nobody can be up to his quality. So the only way more money will help him is he has enough to build a rendering computer army. Not 2 computers. Not 3 computers. He'll need multiple computers for each game to keep up with his never dying lust for the highest quality stuff possible. Either that, or use one of those online render farm services. Which is probably even more expensive at this scale.
Not to mention that if he did manage to build an army of PC's...these games are both supposed to be 30 chapters long. Not 30 days. Not a few weeks. 30 chapters. And each chapter will contain 2k + renders, hundreds of animations, cinematics and so on. Hell, it's pretty much like BaDIK except like twice as long. And he's trying to make 2 of them. I don't see how it's possible.
As for the bottleneck and update frequency debate. I stand by what I said a few pages ago. I don't think it matters what equipment Ocean has. Or what he uses for renders ( Blender, Daz, Octane etc). If he gets better equipment, he'll just do more stuff. Cinematics. More animations. Rework more stuff and make the new stuff even more complex. He can't help himself.
That also means it doesn't matter how much money he makes from the games. He isn't going to hire someone else to help him in any meaningful way. Nobody can be up to his quality. So the only way more money will help him is he has enough to build a rendering computer army. Not 2 computers. Not 3 computers. He'll need multiple computers for each game to keep up with his never dying lust for the highest quality stuff possible. Either that, or use one of those online render farm services. Which is probably even more expensive at this scale.
Not to mention that if he did manage to build an army of PC's...these games are both supposed to be 30 chapters long. Not 30 days. Not a few weeks. 30 chapters. And each chapter will contain 2k + renders, hundreds of animations, cinematics and so on. Hell, it's pretty much like BaDIK except like twice as long. And he's trying to make 2 of them. I don't see how it's possible.
well this game and summer gone has been a good case study example for devs, wanna be devs. know your limit, having ambition and standard on your art is perfectly normal and understandable, but if those things get in the way of ever finishing it maybe you should re-think those ambition and standard. especially if there are people supporting you on you progress (be it financially or through other mean) as you have a direct and indirect responsibility to those people.
As for those thinking of continuing supporting artist who rarely put up anything to prove he's working on what he said he's working, please stop, what you're doing is good and with good intention, however if you just continue supporting artist with these questionable behaviour it would just ended up making them complacent with how things are, they would continue doing this behaviour that imo unacceptable
As for those thinking of continuing supporting artist who rarely put up anything to prove he's working on what he said he's working, please stop, what you're doing is good and with good intention, however if you just continue supporting artist with these questionable behaviour it would just ended up making them complacent with how things are, they would continue doing this behaviour that imo unacceptable
KhamulTG81
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You assume to much. The picture you're painting here is a recipe for disaster.
If you define a project, there is a necessity to set project parameters and this includes a standard of quality definition. The dev needs to understand which parameter is least flexible and which is most flexible. Changing these parameters after the initial process, most of the time, ends in development hell. Ocean knows this, I guarantee you that!
SG and Wiab share a universe. He wants to meet the set standards and qualities with both games because he is developing them at the same time. He made the decission to get these games where they need to be in order to have a smooth developement going forward. This decission is the reason why a lot of people on this forum are going berserk... But to have a decent impact with a steam release in both cases he has decided to do it this way.
Everything else you paint in your post is dark fantasy and rumour mongering.
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I am sorry i will treat you different to all those that in this or other thread keep repeating "abandoned/hold" and will simply tell you to go look at the rules (got tired of going every single time and find the definition for them)
They are not given on what you believe should make sense, but simply how they are currently defined in the forum. To start a discussion on whether those rules make sense as they are right now, you can go and create a different thread.
Avaron1974
Resident Lesbian
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That's never been how the sites rules work.
As long as the dev is active it doesn't get tagged, it's the same with any game regardless of developer.
On hold is a dev requested tag not one the mods just apply.
When I say solid proof I mean actual proof not someone saying it happened, that isn't proof.
Screenshots, PM's etc.. are proof.
Considering the person in question has been a member of the site for 4 years and doesn't know how the sites rules i'm less inclined to take what they at face value.
Just saying they had a review taken down for no reason while we don't know the contents of said review. Reviews still need to follow the rules and any mention of other games or abuse towards dev will get that review taken down.
Without proof of what was in the review and the reason it was taken down I only have the posters word it happened and while it could very well be true it doesn't qualify as proof.
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I agree with you in that working on more than two games, regardless of how you do it, end up hurting development speed of each game separately, as there are things you cannot do when the other game is rendering, for example.
Another question, though, would be if working in both games at the same time speed up the overall development of both games, in the sense of whether you would have overall more content or not as the sum. Potentially there are synergies to be gained, as those rendering times or other things like not getting tired of the same characters and story or whatever.
Obviously, this can also be a very bad metric as ultimately you may care only on a single game.
Ultimately, it is what it is. Nothing we can do about it.
Matt2012021
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my one hope from all this is that any Dev see this no one person should try to do 2 games at once period
slightchance
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Certainly not. Multitasking is a myth and the render time is not the bottleneck. Also there's no WIAB 3.5, evidently.
jamdan
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This doesn't make sense to me.
There needs to be standards of quality. Nobody thinks otherwise. We're saying Ocean's quality standard is far too high for these games to be completed, especially considering how long they're supposed to be and the fact he is doing them at the same time. The goal may be to have a smooth development going forward, but again, we don't believe that is possible for multiple reasons.
He has changed his standard multiple times, this is why this game is being reworked. We are currently in development hell. He reworked Summers Gone too, after he fired his friend who was originally making it. His quality standards have nothing to do with being flexible or not. In fact, it's the opposite. He wants the highest quality he can get. He doesn't believe it's acceptable to make B+ quality when he can do A+. He has said this himself.
People aren't just making things up. We have ample reasons to believe the things we are saying. A lot of this stuff happened before you made an account on here. Updates were supposed to be quicker when he got his 3090 cards. Yet he maxed those out quite easily. Again, because he wants the highest quality he can muster. We don't see any reason that wouldn't happen again if he upgraded his hardware more.
We aren't having dark fantasies or rumor mongering. We're looking at what has already happened in the past and we see no reason it won't continue in the future. He reworks things when they don't meet his increasingly high standards. He maxes his hardware because of that. He wants to be perfectly optimized. He is his own worst enemy. Everyone else is just along for the ride.
Exactly. You are watching, if imperfectly and from a distance, someone's creative process. Ocean is not making a game for you, nor for me, nor for his patrons. He's making a game largely for himself, and his patrons support him for their own reasons. They are not customers. He's building skills and learning as he goes. For him, the journey is the reason, not to reach a destination. That doesn't mean that he is not committed to the games. Clearly he is, but he's not concerned with our expectations of delivery dates, nor our willingness to have him compromise his perception of quality to meet those dates.
We are all along for the ride, only if we choose to be. You, I, and everyone else are free to get off anytime it suits us. Our participation is the only thing over which we have control.
I see Berserk’s getting a new chapter released in a few weeks. Weird to think that I’m going to be getting an update on that, especially since the author died in April, before another instalment of this game.
lipe2410
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The only thing I really have to criticize is how WIAB doesn't seem to get half of SG's attention. As soon as the complete 3.5 chapter has been released, it already has a dev log with the first information of the next update. Meanwhile, WIAB's last proper dev log was over four months ago and it's been almost 2 months since the first time he said that this next big dev log is "coming soon". Once, ocean said he was going to let actions talking. And it looks like his latest actions say that WIAB has a fucking low priority
I say this as someone who vastly prefers WIAB to SG. You could look at the disparity between SG's and WIAB's Pateron support. SG is roughly 70% of Ocean's combined income from the two games. Where would you focus your efforts?
albul
Active Member
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The difference in income between the two is heavily affected by the fact that WIAB hasn't gotten a content update for more than 14 months, at which point WIAB had more income than SG. Since then, SG has received two content updates, while WIAB got neglected and as a result has stagnated. The difference in income is coming from where he focused his efforts, not the other way around.
taking over a country: 1 week
Remaking a game: 14 months and counting
Just in case someone gets triggered, I'm kidding, it's a joke
Remaking a game: 14 months and counting
Just in case someone gets triggered, I'm kidding, it's a joke
nobody0
Newbie
- Jul 26, 2019
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Plus Where it all began had no GPU for a while, and if I remember correctly, SG got the 3090. Honestly, the biggest danger this game face is patreon's support dropping. But even if it doesn't, it is very hard to believe that adult games won't move past VN's within the next 30 years.
KhamulTG81
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What is the purpuse in learning something without using it to finish anything? Commitment is irrelevant at this point. One of the most important accomplishments as a developer of any kind is to have a finished product.
As far as I know, SG and Wiab are not at the end of the road of his endeavor as VN developer. If the picture you're painting here is as blank as you descripe, there would be no chance of him finishing anything within any given timeframe. This is just the wrong mindset to be productive at all!
I believe Ocean is trying to build the base, so to speak, and I think he will get his shit together because, for now, I see structure and not total absence of logical coherence in his actions. The key factor, like I mentioned before, is the steam release of SG and/or Wiab. First impression is immensely important on this platform. He is improving the quality of different aspects in the beginning of both games to meet the minimal requirements to be able to get a strong customer base. Within the first few hours of playtime players decide to either abandon or stick with the game, thats just a fact. If they get flashed with awesomeness
thats a good thing or isn't it?Whatever, I'm out for now... have a nice day...
lipe2410
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I might agree with you if Ocean himself hasn't already said a few times that it doesn't put more or less effort into games depending on the support. If you search his old posts, here or in SG's thread, you'll find one where he says that. Ocean said it but his latest actions seem to say the opposite. That's my point.
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