Most people don't consider that NTR because it is not NTR, understanding NTR as Netorare. Netorare is not just cheating in Japanese. The purpose of NTR is to emphasize the sentiment of jealousy for knowing that others are fucking your love interest, there is no such sentiment of jealousy if you are fucking another people's love interest. The point of view is what defines this genre it is not the same sex scene about you fucking a married woman and a sex scene about your wife being fucked by someone else. Because it doesn't feel the same to be cheated on by your wife/girlfriend as to make someone else's wife/girlfriend cheat him with you. In any case that is called Netori, and even if it also have n, t and r, the change of point of view makes Netori and Netore completely different.
Why do so many NTR authors suck at writing?
- Thread starter Diconica
- Start date
The primary aspect of Netorare is cuckolding. Agreed.
My point is that depends on the perspective you look at it from. If you view it from the person doing the cuckolding it doesn't usually count. However, there is the spouse or prior lovers perspective. Usually, you don't just walk up and take someone from another person. Usually there is a time period of some length. During that time period they are still with the other person but cheating on them.
Just because the primary character is the one doing the cuckolding doesn't mean the story can't explore the results or changes to the world the character is in because of their actions. You know how you have stories that go from two different perspectives. Such as when a story follows two characters and shows how things came to a head or how the two people's actions effected one another without them even knowing the other person.
You can also have a story such as were it follows one characters perspective then changes over to a 3rd person viewer for scene such as later that night after they went home.
As for love interests it could be between a child and the mother or any number of love type relationships. The point is that love relationship is infringed on by someone else.
There are a lot of ways to explore cuckolding. I assumed it wasn't necessary for me to go in such detail that most on here would recognize such aspects easily on their own.
e and so on.
Also you brought up a point I previously brought up the relationship and the damage or loss. That also means one's were the guy gets off on seeing his wife / GF or whatever cheating or being fucked by others technically aren't Netorare.
No, wrong. Netorare is not cuckolding in japanesse. The primary aspect of Netorare isn't just cuckolding, the primary aspect of Netorare is cuckolding on the player/reader. Sure, the story could explore other aspects of cuckolding on other characters, but that doesn't make it Netorare. Is only Netorare when the player/reader is the unwilling victim, cheated husband or wife forced to cheat.
Sure, but the topic is not about cuckolding. Is about Netorare. Netorare could be a subset of cuckolding, in the meaning that every Netorare story is a cuckolding story, but not every cuckolding story is a Netorare story.
I agree. It is also not Netorare when the guy whore out his wife/GF or shares her with other men, like gangbangs for example. Is just that people who dislike Netorare tend to dislike any other kink in which the wife/GF is with other men, and they don't stop to try to check if there are differences between those kinks, and so they call Netorare anything involving a second man, which is wrong. I do not like Netorare, I do not like sharing, I do not like whoring, I do not like voyeur, but just because I do not like it I won't go saying is all the same, people should understand that just like they could like different things they could also dislike different things.
If you go by the strictest of definitions I would say you are correct.
If we go by what you said here. Then 85% of the Japanese made games that claim to be Netorare aren't Netorare.
I'd say they have a fairly good fan base that would some what disagree with you.
Granted I pulled 85% out of my ass. The point is the greater majority of those games wouldn't qualify if you actually looked at the character actions. Whoring your wife out is just one aspect. You have the creeps that get off on watching. You also have the one's who just don't really give a shit about their wife. The one's to rapped in their job to even notice. The feckless who just take it who then excuse her leaving rather than get mad. ... I could make one long ass list here.
Look at it as the same crap that causes new definitions to get added to old words in the dictionary. People just use shit incorrectly.
I bitch about the shit all day long when it comes to English but Japanese isn't my cultural or primary language. So that's their business.
If we look at western made games claiming the title that percentage probably gets worse.
I think there is also a reason so man of the NTR games don't fit that strict definition. Because at the end of the day most people don't like that aspect. They don't like the feeling of being taken from or cheated on. It's something they probably worry enough about in RL were just having it in a game isn't their cup of tea. If you think about that aspect that's a pretty messed up thing to like even just in a story or game.
This is in reply to https://f95zone.to/profile-posts/49397/nicknicola said:
It's more of what games I give more of a pass to for certain issues.
Take a game that is written more serious "Good Girl Gone Bad" would get a lot less of a pass on plot issues than say "Ruins of Luxoria" or "Ema. Milf Warrior" because of the level of seriousness they are written at.
That said even when the game isn't written serious there are limits to what I will give a pass to.
"Meer's Occupation" is an example an author who made ZERO effort in avoiding plot holes. You'd be better of watching the images as a slide show than bothering with the dialog in it.
"Alansya Chronicles: Fleeting Iris" falls some place in between them. It has large plot holes created by the attempted use of blackmail but but you actually have options around it so it is more excusable. The blackmail attempt by the bar owner should have ZERO chance of working. If she really loves her fiance she should confided in him about it. Part of what makes it passable is they never presented her as the smartest tool in the she or anything before hand so she could be dumb enough to fall for it.
On the other hand you have ones like, "Special Request" that the entirety of the plot as of its current state is one plot hole after another. That's because of 3 factors, how the mc was made out to be really smart, the pathetic use of blackmail with no real effort to give a reason she couldn't use any real alternative she would have with the tech show in the story, and the nature of what level of seriousness they attempted to write at.
As discussed just above this post true NTR is about making the reader feel the emotional loss. That never happens with me. So if that's the form of NTR you are looking for I'm not going to be a good judge of that. If woman cheated on me it is good by so long. I can always find someone to replace them. The most I might feel is anger not jealousy and in that case fucking the two of them over severely is probably what will happen before I find someone else.
With that also stories like "Meer's Occupation" aren't NTR by any stretch of the imagination. The MC is Meer and she is doing the cheating. Her childhood friend is the one who would supposedly feel the NTR.
You would need to define more what you are looking for out of a game.
Lets also put good in perspective.
1 Great - story very few if any plot holes. Any plot holes that do exist generally have to be realized with deeper analysis not seen in a single step.
2 Above average - some plot holes exist but they aren't story killers and aren't glaringly obvious.
3 Good - plot holes exist but they aren't frequent or large in nature. 8th grade standard reading level (what most people read at in US)
4 passable -written at 5th to 7th grade level. plot holes still are not story killers.
5 intolerable - this is when massive plot holes and inconsistency in plot exist. (better off never being written)
Most the games labeled with NTR aren't actually NTR but also they don't make the passable mark.
You will in many cases find a higher reading level in VN's over RPG's.
That can also have a negative effect such as making plot holes standout more.
If we start with the following list we can see some examples of what we are talking about.
https://f95zone.to/latest/#/cat=gam...s=1,3,4,5,6,8,12,17,19,20,22,23,47/sort=likes
You can use the prefixes in the right selector turn on and off VN and renpy. That will leave you with just the rpgs for the most part.
You can also reverse that. With such you can see the difference in writing level. That's ignoring the issue of translation issues.
You can also use that list to realize that most the games that are labeled with NTR don't actually have any.
Criteria for Clasical or actual NTR:
1 MC is the person being cheated on experiencing a loss of love.
what doesn't count
1 MC whores out his wife or GF
2 MC is doing the cheating
3 MC enjoys watching
...
So are you looking for Classical or Actual NTR games that are good or just ones that have cuckolding of some nature or sort in it. Then what are your tolerance levels vs mine when it comes to reading.
- Sep 30, 2018
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How dare you? I've been told that some devs, mostly the ones that earn a metric shit ton, are perfect writers and make that much money because they are so damn good and not just because they were pretty much the first badge of devs that made porn games.
Very few games in general look like they've been written by an actual adult who had a relationship and sex before. Many seem to be straight up written by some random incel who had his powertrip after his mom brought him the coke with sugar into the basement and he gulped it down like a shot.
- Sep 26, 2018
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there is no such thing as perfection in writing. there are people that are great writers and there crappy writers but you have to start somewhere to become great at it and it will take time to become one.
if you think you can create a better one then do one and then there will be people will say it great but then others will say it crappy regardless what writing skills you have
if you think you can create a better one then do one and then there will be people will say it great but then others will say it crappy regardless what writing skills you have
The masses, in fact, do not want good writing as far as I can see. New games that actually have some semblance of narrative structure, world building, and believable characters have to scrape the bottom for each and every patron. Tropey porn games do much better on average. Incest, college shit (after BaDIK), good guy MC, self insert POV (that cringy kissing the monitor angles, always hiding MC's face), harem, romance. High quality DAZ will always get more interest than other forms of visuals. NTR also has their own fans who might support any trash NTR regardless of quality (My Future Wife and all other games from this person).
Then we have actually impressive games with actual plots and not just "plots." These always have an uphill battle because... I guess people just don't want an interesting core plot taking center stage. They just want character interactions. They wanna go on dates. They want to get teased. They want sex. Often times, actual plots get in the way. Think about why Transformers or other mindless blockbusters do well compared to "boring" movies that make you think and feel.
But uh... I don't know if I answered this question correctly. In case of NTR, it's just the way the genre works lol. NTR is tropey by nature. Ridiculously dense MC. Woman that gets corrupted so easily by outside influences. It's dumb, but these tropes are kind of necessary for classical NTR to function.
It's hard to place the classical NTR narrative into a more serious situation where everyone behaves logically. A more rational story involving cheating and what not likely wouldn't be the NTR that NTR fans know and love. If you try for a very nuanced story around such topics while avoiding the NTR tropes, you might be in a situation where neither side of this "NTR war" are really interested. Only the real connoisseurs of artistic and literary expression would remain, which as explained in the first 2 paragraphs, are not the biggest group.
Then we have actually impressive games with actual plots and not just "plots." These always have an uphill battle because... I guess people just don't want an interesting core plot taking center stage. They just want character interactions. They wanna go on dates. They want to get teased. They want sex. Often times, actual plots get in the way. Think about why Transformers or other mindless blockbusters do well compared to "boring" movies that make you think and feel.
But uh... I don't know if I answered this question correctly. In case of NTR, it's just the way the genre works lol. NTR is tropey by nature. Ridiculously dense MC. Woman that gets corrupted so easily by outside influences. It's dumb, but these tropes are kind of necessary for classical NTR to function.
It's hard to place the classical NTR narrative into a more serious situation where everyone behaves logically. A more rational story involving cheating and what not likely wouldn't be the NTR that NTR fans know and love. If you try for a very nuanced story around such topics while avoiding the NTR tropes, you might be in a situation where neither side of this "NTR war" are really interested. Only the real connoisseurs of artistic and literary expression would remain, which as explained in the first 2 paragraphs, are not the biggest group.
I find it funny how often people praise incest/harem devs when in reality those games really don't try to be anything other than tropey like you said with a few exceptions. Usually people will tell you just to play other games if you don't like it, but the reality of it is that most games fall into the harem category in which I can understand how people will get bored of it. I believe this is more of a social norm situation instead of it always being a badly written game and I think Treasure of Nadia is a perfect example of this.
- May 25, 2021
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I am in the reworking phase myself. In this first phase, I am doing the research haha
You should think about the type of NTR you want to write about and what situation could exist to put a person in the spot where they are forced to deal with it.
The worst mistake I see game developers do is ignore real choices a person would have in a situation.
Take for example if a young couple are recently together and the guy finds out his wife is banging another guy.
He will probably just leave her and find someone else.
However, lets complicate that a bit more. They started dating in high school. Senior year he got kicked out of school and put on probation for a fight. Probation is 5 years. He also managed to get her pregnant. It's now 3 years later another child is on the way.
He's working at the only decent paying job in town running metal press in factory. It requires no skills and he is easily replaceable.
He needs the job to satisfy his probation and put food on the table for his child ...
He finds out from a coworker his boss has been bragging about banging his wife.
So he heads home sick one day and catches them in bed.
If you do this in the modern time frame. Cell phones exist and he could start using this time to collect evidence for a great divorce case and fuck his boss over down the road. But for the mean time he is stuck tolerating it. Push it back 50 years and would have to use film technology. Still can be done.
In real life worked at a location who did find out his friend was screwing his wife on days he would call in sick. He went home pulled shot gun out of the closet and killed both of them in bed. Sat on the front deck drinking bear till the police arrived. I think he spent the better part of six months in a mental hospital and that was about the extent of it. Temporary insanity. He only got away with it because the gun just happened to be their it was always loaded ... So he argued it was autonomous and no real thought was put behind it.
The fact is there are countless ways a jilted lover can get revenge on one or both parties. Most these games entirely ignore that aspect and don't consider writing anything in to explain why it doesn't happen or is not the option. Internal dialog is often a good method, have the character work through his thinking and rationality of the situation.
The guy above might be worried about getting caught leaving the one child without a father. He may not want to risk harming the child in the mom or just want to wait till after he is born.
That child in itself brings in a entire different question is it his. How long has this been going on? Maybe, both the kids are his bosses.
Getting revenge doesn't have to be some sort of direct confrontation. He could a range for his boss to have a work place accident or many others.
He could also take an entire different approach to everything choose to leave, fake his own death and frame the boss for it. It's a good possibility if he leaves evidence that his boss is sleeping with his wife.
If the guy supposedly likes his wife cheating that isn't NTR to me. If he is enabling her or any of this other stupid shit people write again not NTR.
Real NTR is about that helpless feeling of not being able to prevent it.
So you have to think about what's the best way to get the person in that spot or to feel he/she has no other choice but to endure it for whatever length of time.
You could always cripple the person make them a quadriplegic. Hell for that matter make his wife an entire fucking bitch. But he has to tolerate her because she is the only person taking care of him. She throws it in his face. Goes to the point of putting a TV in his room so he can see her being fucked in the other room. She turns it on forcing him to watch he has no way to turn it off or change channel or even fall asleep. She has the volume up on loud to prevent that.
So does he get better some how. Kill himself. Family show up and get him help....? Or does the bitch go over board he dies and she goes to jail for neglect ... Maybe, she is fucking his doctor and since he is under doctors care it won't even require an autopsy.
It isn't hard to come up with situations in which someone mentally justify enduring it for some length of time.
To many authors resort to stupid shit like blackmail. It next to never works in real life and most authors can't even write it decent enough to make it believable. It's more likely you will produce another shit game than pull of using blackmail correctly.
- Jan 26, 2021
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In summery this... NTR demands a nonsensical story to work.
IRL hardly any NTR storyline would work.
IRL: Boss fucks your wife and you catch them? --> Wouldn't end well for them.
NTR: Boss fucks your wife and you catch them? --> Oh no, there is nothing I can do... and/or OMG why is my small peepee getting so hard...
You have to dial the suspension of disbelieve to over 99999999999999.
A lot of people on this site consider the mere existence of a second dick as ntr baiting. For any game that isn't a pure power fantasy the chances are pretty high that at least a few people will call it a "cuck game". That's disingenuous to the discussion at hand, but it opens up a world of possible plot points under the general ntr umbrella. Take voyeur scenes that go beyond watching showering landladys for example, or just take any incest game, where the landlord didn't suffer an untimely death.
To make my point less disingenuous I'd argue that a fetish is only a fetish, if it gets explicitly fetishized and otherwise it's only meant to be a plot point. Conversely this means that any plot point could be fetishized.
Take the love triangle as an example, which is a believable enough scenario to be included in many pieces of classic literature. Simply including explicit sex scenes for all possible constellations can arguably be considered ntr. Or as another example have a LI be a sex worker and show an explicit scene with one of their clients.
I'd argue that any plot that's more engaging than pseudo harem "gotta catch'em all" will be considered ntr by at least a few people. So I don't really see how ntr is supposed to be unique in the fact that it requires suspension of disbelieve. In fact, I'd say (incest) harem games are much worse offenders, to the point where I'd consider them an insult to the intelligence of their consumers.
- Jan 3, 2020
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Personally I dont care about situations cause well, most of the time fiction is a low detail representation of the reality.
But I would definitely care about context and most f the NTR games the context is your bias about the fetish, not the result of the work and talent of the writer.
A simple "You live with your innocent wife or fiancé" in the sinopsis, before sending the girl to a gymn to have some horsedick dry humping her, is not enough.
That is a case I encoutered in the past where the girlfriend would go to the gym in the morning and the MC would see her back in the late afternoon, and in the gym you would have the option of making her a lustful fiend.
In that case 8 hours in the gym would definitiely trigger suspension of disbelief warning but I dont particulary care, as long as the writer cares and gives me some context, and the character has some motive, it doesnt matter as long as its something, she will feel like a human being, and make you emphatize.
But I would definitely care about context and most f the NTR games the context is your bias about the fetish, not the result of the work and talent of the writer.
A simple "You live with your innocent wife or fiancé" in the sinopsis, before sending the girl to a gymn to have some horsedick dry humping her, is not enough.
That is a case I encoutered in the past where the girlfriend would go to the gym in the morning and the MC would see her back in the late afternoon, and in the gym you would have the option of making her a lustful fiend.
In that case 8 hours in the gym would definitiely trigger suspension of disbelief warning but I dont particulary care, as long as the writer cares and gives me some context, and the character has some motive, it doesnt matter as long as its something, she will feel like a human being, and make you emphatize.
- Jan 26, 2021
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The question is why should there be another dick in a non-NTR game to begin with?
If "you the player" likes seeing multiple dicks on the screen then maybe NTR isn't the preferred genre to begin with but maybe gay?
That would be netori though...
Most people have no problem with that genre.
Not my kind of genre though.
I don't think many people want a sex worker as LI, not IRL and not in a game.
By the way... Triangle is a pretty good game.
Look... It ain't that deep...
Actually in the end it's very simple.
In an NTR game you play to lose, in every other genre you play to win and get girls.
That's why an incest harem game like e.g. Sisterly Lust is a winner that's completed and most NTR games are Abandoned.
Most people don't want to play to lose, they want to play and win.
IF you want to play and pay to loose then I'd recommend Diablo Immortal.
Mfm threesomes, group sex, consensual swinging, female protag or multiple protags, light hearted comedy games, where everybody fucks everybody.
Harem Karens hate being called out for insecurities, but if an MC is portrayed as being fine with the fact that his LI is sexually active, where else are these hang-ups coming from?
This has nothing to do with your original point. You claimed ntr plots are always shitty, because they're required to be nonsensical. How is this a unique feature to ntr plots? You yourself seem to prefer games, where the MC is the only man in existence, which is also pretty nonsensical.
Especially if you start conflating everything that isn't a pure pseudo harem power fantasy as ntr, you're restricting possible non-ntr plotlines quite a bit.
- Jan 26, 2021
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Fem prot ---> meh to me... I'm not a woman so I can't relate to the MC
mult prot ---> mostly means the dev couldn't decide what he wanted
MMF ---> means you have two dicks and one pussy on screen ---> meh to me
swinging ---> hard pass
group sex ---> can mean anything, no specific gender ratio
comedy ---> If I want to laugh, I go to my basement...
So you think it's insecurity if you don't want other men dicking your GF?
I never said it's a unique feature of NTR. It's a feature of porn games in general.
Harem is as unrealistic as NTR or any other porn genre.
Unrealistic doesn't mean bad though.
Take Harem Hotel as example. It has elves and androids. Seems unrealistic.
Sub plot is much deeper though. Racism and politics; genocide and the birth of a new race; love, hate and betrayal; the desire to seek vengeance are just some of its plot points. All that from a game called Harem Hotel.
Show me one NTR game with that much depth and world building. You won't find one because they all get abandoned eventually.
I think my point stands.
People want to play and win and not play and lose, a good story helps too. NTR has none of that.
Who asked?
It's just games though. You're not gonna commit to a Daz render, are you? Is it ntr that my PC fucked the same landlady as yours?
Here's what I was responding to:
Which is just not true, if you consider everything that gets conflated as ntr. But I don't want to repeat myself.
- Jan 26, 2021
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Whatever...
You didn't get a single point I was making...
Have fun being a cuck I guess...
- Jan 3, 2020
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In NTR there are 2 categories, the ones made for you to fill all the missing info and allow you an easy fap, and the ones that have buildup like DmD or a Family venture and others I dont remember that have story.Whatever...
You didn't get a single point I was making...
Have fun being a cuck I guess...
So I think the discussion is about the first type, those that usually named "my wife whatever" or japanese titled like "I was living in a farm in ontario and my girlfriend was NTRed uring the night: Cosplay edition.