VN Ren'Py Zero End [v0.2.5c] [Stolen Rose]

[Fairlight0306]

She offers him her side, she offers him a place along her side - they end up in the endless realm together - MC knows he is the Emperor, the fated champion of the Endless - we know it for sure - neither of the three ever recovered or forgave or reconciled, while MC kept telling Marie how sorry he felt for Daniel and how he tried to befriend Daniel even on the night of the deed - nobody is supposed to keep contact with such people - they were friends, MC kept telling Daniel they were friends - and Daniel did the deed after MC told Marie to basically give Daniel a chance to all spend time together.

you conveniently forgot to mention the binding part not to mention how she basically blackmailed him with the life of his friends,how generous of her to offer him the lapdog part. But it's for her greater good i guess, she will save everyone in her greatness,she is the real good mc of the game.

 

[N1ghtcrawler]

It is strange that you don´t question why she didn´t scream or shout his name.
Why didn´t she defend herself? And no she didn´t defend herself, daniel told caleb.
Why didn´t she go to the Police or why didn´t her Parents go to the Police.
If i would be at the parents place i would at least report that animal to the police.
He has to be punished.
So while i believe that there are some woman who will react like she did, there are there still open question which are unanswered.
It makes me furious just thinking about why she did not shout or scratch her way out.
And that she let him get away with rape.
So why is the question? Are there othere things hidden? maybe she wanted to sever there bond? or maybe she wanted caleb to kill himself.
But then lilith comes and saves him.

You're overthinking this. People react differently. Some scream and fight back. Others completely shut down, they freeze, can't move, and just cry.

About rape victims i don't know so i give you the benefit of the doubt.
About Caleb needed to stay by her side : it's quite difficult if she don't want and as you said she distanced herself from her partner, your words.
I think those flashbacks are part of the story and not here just for fun, so i judge Marie for the whole package, sorry no sympathy.
And why she don't blame Daniel in front of him if i may ask? She's afraid to hurt his feelings?

The game doesn't specify exactly how much time passed after the rape. Either way, it's clear that Marie needed time to recover, and Caleb didn't give her that. Instead, he made the entire situation about himself.

After that, he catches her while she's still carrying unprocessed trauma, and now also has to face the presence of a boyfriend who reminds her not only of her rapist, but of the fact that someone was killed for her.

Seriously, what kind of reaction do you expect from someone in that position?
From a person who had never hurt anyone before, and had never dealt with something as heavy as murder. She did what someone like her would likely do. She cut ties with the person who had become a source of pain for the sake of her own peace of mind.

If you're unsure whether people really behave the way Marie and Caleb did, I don't know, maybe read about real cases, read some books or watch movies that handle these stories realistically.

Even when someone kills the person who hurt their partner, in self-defense or even out of revenge (which, btw, the partner may initially support), the couple can still fall apart. Because the memory of what happened doesn't go away. That kind of trauma lingers. And sometimes, just being near the person who reminds you of it is too much.

I think those flashbacks are part of the story and not here just for fun, so i judge Marie for the whole package, sorry no sympathy.

You ignore the fact that Maria went through brainwashing, torture and lost her memory. Caleb keeps emphasizing that she wasn't that person before.

 

[AL.d]

You're overthinking this. People react differently. Some scream and fight back. Others completely shut down, they freeze, can't move, and just cry.

The game doesn't specify exactly how much time passed after the rape. Either way, it's clear that Marie needed time to recover, and Caleb didn't give her that. Instead, he made the entire situation about himself.

But the situation was inevitably about himself too. The game very clearly says she had cut him off completely before the suicide. And from their few interactions before retreating completely behind her mother, he got resentment. From his perspective, the relationship with his supposed soulmate had been completely destroyed by Daniel. She inexplicably resents him instead of her rapist for her own reasons, it's clearly stated. All that before the suicide, at least in the way it's presented by the game.

This outcome was a direct consequence of Daniel's actions. And it's an outcome that directly involved him since it was his relationship in ruins because of that asshole. He was perfectly justified to take action against someone harming him. The notion that everyone is allowed to be a selfish prick except for MC, is a weird one.

 

[Fairlight0306]

You ignore the fact that Maria went through brainwashing, torture and lost her memory. Caleb keeps emphasizing that she wasn't that person before.

You ignore the fact that brainwashing, torture and "lost her memory" was just faking and she didn't have any problem killing Invictus, using the mc and his friends as bait btw and after that she didn't disband the cult,au contraire. they were all over the ball and in the cult house.

 

[Canto Forte]

Why, then, is MC still adamant in accusing Marie for it? Lilith saved his life. MC did not tell the parents, MC did not tell the police, MC did not get A DEMON TO RIP DANIEL TO SHREDS then and there, even if ve can see all around the game MC does PACTS WITH COUNTLESS DEMONS IN NO SECOND FLAT.
MC chose to keep the terrible secret and SHUT HIMSELF DOWN IN HIS BED FOR MONTHS JUST LIKE Marie

This outcome was a direct consequence of Daniel's actions. And it's an outcome that directly involved him since it was his relationship in ruins because of that asshole. He was perfectly justified to take action against someone harming him. The notion that everyone is allowed to be a selfish prick except for MC, is a weird one.

The thing is, nobody is disapproving of MC, he is a total dumb asshole by his own admission right in the present time of the game and also in the past - a total tool - by his own record.

Why would he be so hostile to Marie, even is she simply wanted MC to help her rid herself and the world of Invictus - that was it. MC should have allied himself with Marie against Invictus, but MC is literally attacking her even if he recollects that the past abused both of them and left both of them utterly broken and discarded. MC killed himself FFS - only to get ressurected by Lilith because MC has Adam and Eve in his DNA and Lilith likes to have him around for the people he reminds her of.
She then offered him a way out: go away.

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[AL.d]

Why, then, is MC still adamant in accusing Marie for it? Lilith saved his life. MC did not tell the parents, MC did not tell the police, MC did not get A DEMON TO RIP DANIEL TO SHREDS then and there, even if ve can see all around the game MC does PACTS WITH COUNTLESS DEMONS IN NO SECOND FLAT.
MC chose to keep the terrible secret and SHUT HIMSELF DOWN IN HIS BED FOR MONTHS JUST LIKE Marie

The thing is, nobody is disapproving of MC, he is a total dumb asshole by his own admission right in the present time of the game and also in the past - a total tool - by his own record.
View attachment 4993281
Why would he be so hostile to Marie, even is she simply wanted MC to help her rid herself and the world of Invictus - that was it. MC should have allied himself with Marie against Invictus, but MC is literally attacking her even if he recollects that the past abused both of them and left both of them utterly broken and discarded. MC killed himself FFS - only to get ressurected by Lilith because MC has Adam and Eve in his DNA and Lilith likes to have him around for the people he reminds her of.
She then offered him a way out: go away.

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You mean to say the dude who loathed himself so much to the point of attempting suicide...loathes himself? Shocking!

I've already commented on the writer's bias against what would be perceived as justified retribution by most. But as the players, we are free to judge the story according to our own moral compass. It's rare that a game sparks that on here, so that's a point for the dev no matter their biases.

 

[Fairlight0306]

Why would he be so hostile to Marie, even is she simply wanted MC to help her rid herself and the world of Invictus - that was it. MC should have allied himself with Marie against Invictus, but MC is literally attacking her even if he recollects that the past abused both of them and left both of them utterly broken and discarded. MC killed himself FFS - only to get ressurected by Lilith because MC has Adam and Eve in his DNA and Lilith likes to have him around for the people he reminds her of.
She then offered him a way out: go away.

Because it's not only to get rid of Invictus c'mon you played the game as me how you can be so selective about the things you remember: she needs him for the eye,Invictus was never a problem for her, to be honest i will attack too someone who wants to make me a puppet without will,she offered him a way out because she is not sure anymore of her victory.Also she tried more and more time to manifest the worst version of the mc, because she don't need this soft and loving version of him, her words.

 

[Rayne]

I think the developer has achieved his goal, his game is being discussed and theories are being built, and with the next update he can throw out some other twist that will ultimately shock us all. The only thing that is sad is that Marie's romantic branch will be fully revealed only in the finale or closer to the end of the game. And most likely it won't be a happy ending.

 

[Fairlight0306]

I think the developer has achieved his goal, his game is being discussed and theories are being built, and with the next update he can throw out some other twist that will ultimately shock us all. The only thing that is sad is that Marie's romantic branch will be fully revealed only in the finale or closer to the end of the game. And most likely it won't be a happy ending.

Absolutely,goal achieved 100%.Personally there is not a Marie romantic branch, i just want to kill or make suffer that hypocritical bitch and i'm happily engaged with my girl Rayne,(not you lol)

 

[RewindWorld]

To be honest all endings are bad endings......I like it when you can have a good and a bad ending but in this story there seems to be only sadness.....
The Selfsacrifice is the best ending you can get and that tells a lot.

The game is giving big bittersweet ending vibes. Maybe it will change in the next 5 years/ 2 chapters but man I am getting big MC will sacrifice himself to save everyone vibes and there won't be any true happy ending. This game is pretty much just everyone keeping secrets from the other and sacrifice themselves "for the greater good."

MC who can't trust anyone and always has to be on top of things who also has a hero/ self sacrifice complex. Just screams "I am going to sacrifice myself to stop the void" feeling.

Ex lover who you may have never got over. In over her head and just wants MC to trust her even tho she has not done anything to justify it. Also her plans are not even likely to work.

Moody hunter willing to turn into what she hates for power.

Oracle doing her best Dr. Strange impression

Sweet succubus who will finally merge her two parts only to see everyone else sacrifice themselves to "save the world"

Feels like we are stuck between bitter sweet sacrifice ending or weird deus ex machina where somehow the power of friendship will fix everything by the end or more likely someone else will sacrifice themself and everything will work out and only be semi bitter sweet. Guess we just have to have faith that the great god that is the writer can make do the ending justice! Then again they are definitely a better writer than me so I will trust them. The only way I can think of we are going to get a true good ending is a power of friendship thing where everyone finally works together, trust each other, and they truly stand together to fight off the eldritch horror of a final boss.

Yeah, happy ending may not be possible in this game without some casualties and tragedy along the way.

For example, I didn't think of it at the time but vampires want to kill whoever they fall in love with so... how is that going to work out for Keira now that she voluntarily wants to become a vampire. Specific to her route of course.

 

[N1ghtcrawler]

But the situation was inevitably about himself too. The game very clearly says she had cut him off completely before the suicide. And from their few interactions before retreating completely behind her mother, he got resentment. From his perspective, the relationship with his supposed soulmate had been completely destroyed by Daniel. She inexplicably resents him instead of her rapist for her own reasons, it's clearly stated. All that before the suicide, at least in the way it's presented by the game.

This outcome was a direct consequence of Daniel's actions. And it's an outcome that directly involved him since it was his relationship in ruins because of that asshole. He was perfectly justified to take action against someone harming him. The notion that everyone is allowed to be a selfish prick except for MC, is a weird one.

I never stated Caleb was a selfish prick, he thinks he is. And Maria's actions, regardless of the context surrounding the rape, don't make her selfish prick. I've already said why and I don't want to repeat myself. Her following reaction to Caleb's actions is perfectly reasonable from the perspective of a normal person who has never dealt with this shit before.

I've already commented on the writer's bias against what would be perceived as justified retribution by most. But as the players, we are free to judge the story according to our own moral compass. It's rare that a game sparks that on here, so that's a point for the dev no matter their biases.

Who are those most?
From a moral standpoint, whether Caleb's actions count as "justified retribution" is debatable. He wasn't the one who was raped. He didn't act with the victim consent or approval. He took it upon himself and made the situation about his own pain. Daniel raped Marie in a state of passion and was genuinely remorseful afterward. And we're not operating in a realistic world here - this is a story where a kind of divine or cosmic justice exists. That context also matters.

In the end, it's not really about whether Caleb's actions were justified retaliation, it's about the consequences. Caleb wasn't someone who could put up with what he did. He didn't grow up in a violent home, or in an environment that might warp his moral compass. He wasn't hardened by his surroundings, he was an ordinary person (despite being a magician) who made a devastating decision. So his reaction is quite realistic and natural.

And even from a pragmatic standpoint, it wasn't justified. It didn't bring healing, only caused more pain for both him and Marie. And it ultimately destroyed any chance he had to repair his relationship with her.

You ignore the fact that brainwashing, torture and "lost her memory" was just faking and she didn't have any problem killing Invictus, using the mc and his friends as bait btw and after that she didn't disband the cult,au contraire. they were all over the ball and in the cult house.

Show me where it's stated.
A cult with no brainwashing? That's something new.
I'm on my fourth playthrough, and the game makes it very clear that Invictus tortured and brainwashed his subordinates. It also states multiple times that interacting with the Mirrored World causes memory loss. This isn't just subtext. It's supported by both character dialogue and the notes Caleb finds during his infiltration of the mansion.
How do her actions against Caleb and his friends contradict what I said? I have no problem with her being a terrible person. Never said otherwise. What I said was that she's not the same person she used to be.

 

[_Sen _]

Yeah, happy ending may not be possible in this game without some casualties and tragedy along the way.

For example, I didn't think of it at the time but vampires want to kill whoever they fall in love with so... how is that going to work out for Keira now that she voluntarily wants to become a vampire. Specific to her route of course.

As Lily said in the Rayne route, there are exceptions to every rule. A Succubus suffers from the Curse of Thorns while vampires suffer from the Curse of Blood, both of which originate from Lilith. If the former has an exception, then the latter will too

Imo, a vampire will kill her lover if he/she is a normal person. But Caleb, being the son of Adam will not be in danger if a vampire loves him. Since it's in a way a reminiscence of the bond between Lilith and Adam

 

[Fairlight0306]

A cult with no brainwashing? That's something new.
I'm on my fourth playthrough, and the game makes it very clear that Invictus tortured and brainwashed his subordinates. It also states multiple times that interacting with the Mirror World causes memory loss. This isn't just subtext — it's directly supported by both character dialogue and the notes Caleb finds during his infiltration of the mansion.
How do her actions against Caleb and his friends contradict what I said? I have no problem with her being a terrible person. What I said was that she's not the same person she used to be.[/ISPOILER]

No no the cult had absolutely the brainwashing and the torture,it's Marie that faked to be in the hands of Invictus and about the memory loss can you make some exemple of Marie important episodes of memory loss?(after the ritual of ash)Sure i agree she is not the same person,she is way worse and for her choice.

 

[AL.d]

And even from a pragmatic standpoint, it wasn't justified. It didn't bring healing, only caused more pain for both him and Marie. And it ultimately destroyed any chance he had to repair his relationship with her.

That's the thing you keep ignoring. From his standpoint, the relationship is already dead and gone. Nothing to repair. That very fact is what caused the desire for retribution for something done to HIM at this point. That something being his relationship's demise and Marie's exit from his life. He didn't set out to kill Daniel at prom night or the next day to "avenge her honor" or something like that. It's the gradual aftermath of that night that eventually led him to seek retribution.

 

[xceratxx]

I got an Error

I got same error too.

 

[ninjasamuri]

Alice.............that was so damn sad. Even when you save her in the other ending you don't get to be with her it's pretty much a lose lose situation.

Also, I ain't gonna lie I get the guilt Caleb has but Daniel kinda took the easy way out, it also really pisses me off how badly his bullshit screwed everyone over.

Keira asking to be turned in the end is kinda wild to me, especially if you are in a relationship with her, there is literally no way that doesn't end in tragedy, even if she does get her revenge how does she intend to reconcile her immortality with Caleb aging.

I hope this doesn't mean Alice is completely out of the story tho.

And honestly I can't for the life of me see a method of redemption for Marie that I can accept if she doesn't do a Sacrifice play for caleb in the end.

Spoiler tags dude

it's understatable she calls him a monster after that.

"You killed my

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, YOU MONSTER!" I can understand her being upset and not wanting him to do it, but actively thinking and worse yet saying it's monstrous or makes him a monster is a bridge too far

Honestly I get the feeling something has not been made clear between what Daniel did and why the MC got the short end of the stick.

Yeah maybe, I don't agree with the guy you're replying to because she really could've just frozen up and had that kind of psychological reaction, and not wanting to be touched at all after what JUST happened to her, is also plausible.
However her reaction to Caleb is completely sus, combine that with how shocked Daniel himself looked...
I wouldn't be too surprised if we find out later that he was brainwashed/magically compelled into doing it and she knew but maybe didn't exactly expect what he did

Who are those most?
He wasn't the one who was raped.

Historically the punishment for that was execution, same as murder and if the MC did that to avenge a murder instead it would be a silly argument to say 'he wasn't the one that was murdered' most people don't believe that rapists should be allowed to live.
The removal of the Death Penalty in most places was from a top down decree of some form or another, the only exception I can find is Ireland, outside of that, the death penalty was popular from the places where the governing body decided to stop practicing it.

EDIT: Even in the case of Ireland it's probably because they wanted to make it impossible to legally execute IRA people at the time

Also, need a Caleb version of THIS

 

[Alleycat_2017]

Well, that That had a few twists. A long time voming but worth the wait. Love the coundtrack btw.

 

[N1ghtcrawler]

No no the cult had absolutely the brainwashing and the torture,it's Marie that faked to be in the hands of Invictus and about the memory loss can you make some exemple of Marie important episodes of memory loss?(after the ritual of ash)Sure i agree she is not the same person,she is way worse and for her choice.

A couple of examples that immediately came to mind.

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That's the thing you keep ignoring. From his standpoint, the relationship is already dead and gone. Nothing to repair.

If you’re going to bring up that first part, don’t leave out the rest - he admitted he was wrong about that.

Historically the punishment for that was execution, same as murder and if the MC did that to avenge a murder instead it would be a silly argument to say 'he wasn't the one that was murdered' most people don't believe that rapists should be allowed to live.
The removal of the Death Penalty in most places was from a top down decree of some form of other, the only exception I can find is Ireland, outside of that, the death penalty was popular from the places where the governing body decided to stop practicing it.

Death penalty =/= lynching.

 

[Ikalkeki]

I had a feeling this was going to be the most debated aspect of the update, and oh boy I wasn't disappointed. Let's go Ethics Class !

 

[AL.d]

If you’re going to bring up that first part, don’t leave out the rest - he admitted he was wrong about that.

And that's exactly why my view is different from the one imposed on MC by the writer. Assuming MC knows no more than what we saw in those flashbacks, there was absolutely nothing wrong with declaring that relationship dead.

He was resented and pushed away like he was the one who raped her. That's a relationship killer right there. That being the result of trauma is irrelevant. Some people deal with trauma in way that doesn't royally fuck up their relationship with their loved ones. Others don't and end up doing just that. From everything we saw, she was the latter.

Unless we see why it was a mistake to think that dead relationship as dead, I can only take his admission as yet another indication this dude is a self-loathing weirdo with a martyr complex. Which absolutely checks out in terms of his overall characterization.