VN Ren'Py Zero End [v0.2.5c] [Stolen Rose]

[Antherak]

Found this game not long ago and finished it. I think it was a nice change of pace from all those college setting games and the darker occult themes gave a good mood to the game. I don't know if im right, but the game gives the feeling that there is only 2 LI in the game (keira / rayne) and everyone else is treated like side content. I first tried Keira, but she started annoying me a bunch after a while with her single track mindset so i restarted with raYNE and i liked it. I would have tried an alice route also as i liked her, but now with how this chapter ends, im not so sure if im just gonna waste my time doing that.

I was dissapointed that there is so much content exclusivity in the way that for example you choose 1 out of 3 scenes and thats it. You miss on a lot of the content as well exp and stats gains. You pretty much have to choose from the start one and only one girl and stick with her everytime or you even miss on her content not having accumulated enough points. Which brings me to stats and deities. It is an awful system, or its awfully implemented. There is way too many god choices to pick and they are almost inconsequantial choices included to make you feel good having picked the right one for a situation, and i have rarely seen more than a single changed choice/action until now with any choices ive picked in now 2 full chapters. As for the stats, either just have like 3 of them (str, int, end) that you can actually build or choose which one on level up instead of a whole ton of them that, unless you use a WT to min-max, you mostly fail all the stat checks due to not having the right stat or not high enough. Its very un-satisfying to fail almost all the time. I remember my first fight with swallowsong, it was a miserable experience. Speaking of which, just go away swallow, im tired of you. One time for nostalgia's sake was nice seeing the classic voerman malkavian, but it's become a running gag now.

Also from the writing style and tought process, im inclined to say a women wrote that story. Revenge seems to be considered the utmost and vile action in this game, even higher than murder, rape, torture and betrayal. I cant wait to see how the keira situation will be handled. She basically spits on everything she believed, betray her family and discards her lover depending on who you picked, all for the sake of revenge. She should become the biggest monster of them all now and have all the hate. She will become exactly what she hates. For her revenge, she is giving her free will and will now be cursed to kill tons of people for blood instead of just, for example, asking for one of the lets say multitude of mages on school grounds to help bind or incapacitates swallowsong to allow her the kill. Also, that hunter cult is kinda scammy. Either you are picked as a low level cannon fodder grunt that is basically a stronger faster and regenerating but regular human, or you can be OP as fuck, depends on the luck of the draw. Cant wait now for her hunter god to be pissed and to send her brother to be the one to hunt her.

As for the marie situation, i absolutely believe she's not saying the true story of what happened. I think either the endless was already involved in the background with her back then, like lilith and the mc, and she probably had a vision or knew it would happen to her. External influences are high on my theories. Like lilith said, it is an extremely rare occurence that adams and eves get separated once they find each other, hence my suspicions about external foul play. We are still missing on when and how marie moved on from her rape episode and got in he cult and why. We also have no details from the contract between the endless and vindictus. Usually for marie to be sold, she would have had to agree to the pact, the same as she needs caleb to agree to pass it on him, and i dont think vindictus used the word of the emperor, as i think that its what he gained from said contract. And usually, contracts can be broken. As for her state of mind. In the past, did she really love the mc? no sex, no nudity, no kisses, nothing but her getting close and extracting all the magical training and knowledge she could from caleb. As for the present it is obvious some event happened at some point that changed her. Now she is calculation, evil and very cruel and as no pity or remorse. She absolutely stages the mc coming to the school to pass the eye on him. She uses poor alice for fuckery and schemes to manipulate the mc towards a precise direction. The sight was ripped from odette and put in alice forcefully. By whom? and when? Then she tongue lock her to make sure she doesnt tell. She tried to stealthily compel him to be her slave. She uses all his friends as sacrifices. She kills innocents without remorse. And she destroys alice, almost with joy, just to get petty revenge againt the mc for outsmarting her, instead of just being honest about what calebs request would entail and work toward another agreeable solution.

Seeing as its 2 of 4, i assume its gonna be geared towards the endless will posses marie and the gang gonna have to find a way to kill it, while the mc will probably be stubborn and still waste his time trying to save her hurting everyone else in the process. Still a very enjoyable experience. Also, who's the last sex scene in the ch2 gallery with? I can make the other ones i dont have but i dont recognize the girl as the image is difficult to see with the blackish colors.

 

[Rake Tyler]

I like the story of this game, but for me it has two problems: 1. The story is a little confusing and if you don't pay attention you get lost, and since I usually play while watching TV it's hard to pay attention to the story. 2. The fact that the protagonist is smoking all the time bothers me a lot because I'm studying a health-related course in college and also because I've seen a lot of videos about health and healthy living where they talk a lot about cigarettes and how bad they are for your whole body, and that stuck with me. IN MY OPINION, this game should have a choice for the player, so they could disable this type of content like some other games out there (after all, kids, there's nothing cool about smoking, and it's something that only brings a lot of harm to your body).

 

[hermit_tr]

I like the story of this game, but for me it has two problems: 1. The story is a little confusing and if you don't pay attention you get lost, and since I usually play while watching TV it's hard to pay attention to the story. 2. The fact that the protagonist is smoking all the time bothers me a lot because I'm studying a health-related course in college and also because I've seen a lot of videos about health and healthy living where they talk a lot about cigarettes and how bad they are for your whole body, and that stuck with me. IN MY OPINION, this game should have a choice for the player, so they could disable this type of content like some other games out there (after all, kids, there's nothing cool about smoking, and it's something that only brings a lot of harm to your body).

I think AVN is bad for kids.

Edit:
Out of topic.
BTW, I don't smoke. But here, smoking is not the main issue that kids should worry about.
And again, this is an adult site, I think members can judge whether the risk of smoking is something they can bear or not.

 

[yossa999]

I also have some difficulties with this game. You see, I usually play with my right hand on the mouse and my left hand on my dick.

But the author did not adapt the game and the plot at all so that players with a playing style like mine would be comfortable playing.

Firstly, sometimes creepy creatures and monsters appear in the game, jumping out of the darkness and scaring the player, completely ruining my left-handed immersion in the game. The same thing happens when the MC starts his endless internal monologues and thoughts about some insignificant random things, it constantly distracts you and the left hand gets tired.

Secondly, I don't know what I did wrong, but somehow I managed to complete the latest update without unlocking any of the lewd scenes. This plot development is completely incompatible with my playstyle (you should remember it, mouse in the right hand, dick in the left) so I think the game should warn the player that choosing certain options leads to a lewdless playthrough and may cause blueballing.

And thirdly, the characters often drink alcohol. I have read a lot about the harm of alcohol consumption and it has been proven that alcohol changes the function of nerve cells by penetrating them. Every second patient with alcoholism has a damaged cardiovascular system. Alcohol affects the pancreas, affects the liver, stomach, esophagus. The human brain suffers most from alcohol.

I think the author could make the drinking scenes skippable, or better yet, replace them with scenes that promote a healthy lifestyle. For example, Brandon, instead of offering Caleb a sip of beer, could invite him to the gym or for a run. And at the nightclub, instead of hanging around the bar, they could order a tuna salad and orange juice.

Apart from that, I really enjoyed the game!

I know there will always be that guy, so let me say it in advance: it was sarcasm.

 

[Thur1in]

What a masterpiece this game/story is becoming, absolutely loved the latest episode. I can't wait for the next.
I really want revenge on Swansong and Marie, hope we get some of that then.

 

[Fairlight0306]

What a masterpiece this game/story is becoming, absolutely loved the latest episode. I can't wait for the next.
I really want revenge on Swansong and Marie, hope we get some of that then.

YOU MONSTER!

 

[N1ghtcrawler]

I'm pretty sure I've already expressed my disagreement with how dev views Daniel's death. I just make arguments about what the game has shown about the events that makes me disagree. You don't have to convince me of MC's in-game viewpoint. I know. I just don't like it and I expressed why, according to what the game has shown us.

If you just didn't like it, I wouldn't be arguing with you. Who cares. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm refuting your arguments because they're wrong. You twisted Caleb's view to fit your own, used it when it suited you, then brushed it off when it didn't. Now it's "I just don't like it". Alright.

I would bet that if you made a poll about Daniel's death, after seen all the flashbacks, the majority of players would still answer it was the right thing to do.

So a bunch of people would choose to ruin a person's life to satisfy their values. That tells you nothing. It's textbook argumentum ad populum, but worse: it's attached to a moral dilemma that by definition can only be resolved individually. There is no objective right answer here, just differing values and their consequences. A poll doesn't validate anything. It just shows how many people are willing to project their own worldview onto someone who clearly doesn't share it and for whom it would be destructive.

Caleb is written to treat it like the most despicable act a man can ever commit.

That line crosses from interpretation into melodrama.
Caleb himself views what he did as morally catastrophic. But the game presents his pain as personal and complex.

Even present Marie, who has been a bona fide tyrant destroying lives left and right, says something along the lines "I've never done anything as bad as what you did". That something being getting rid of her rapist. And that insane viewpoint seems to be accepted and propagated by the game. This is where the disconnect is and why me and quite a few others are pointing it out.

Marie calls Caleb's act worse than anything she's done, but then she's also a tyrant destroying lives left and right. So which is it? Is she a credible moral authority, or a manipulative cult leader whose words shouldn't be taken at face value?

Marie usually throws those lines when Caleb challenges what she's become. It's deflection, a classic whataboutism. Sometimes she accepts his act and turns it against him ( "I was misguided, let's say. Naive." ), sometimes she weaponizes his guilt because she knows it cuts deep.

Caleb isn't a passive victim. Even when he's hurt by her words, he sees her manipulations and exposes them. There's a moral debate going on between them. But just because he's right doesn't mean she can't respond in kind. These are psychological fight from someone who knows exactly where to stab.

As for your exact example, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. She thought he would agree with what she's doing because of his act in the past. And between the lines, she, of course, twists the knife. The entire scene she is manipulating and mocking him.

The game doesn't propagate her viewpoint and paints her as a damaged, corrupted, dangerous person capable of pain, cruelty and lies. The writing doesn't ask you to take her word as gospel. If you're drawing wrong conclusions from what she says, that's on you.

 

[Alleycat_2017]

What a masterpiece this game/story is becoming, absolutely loved the latest episode. I can't wait for the next.
I really want revenge on Swansong and Marie, hope we get some of that then.

Yeah, looking for the twist when Keira finally gets her moment with Swansong. Despite Keira not being one of my favourite characters. Got to be some twists with Silver and some convoluted loyalty system that's going to throw a spanner in those particular works to prevent anysuch arc being anything like straightforward. Assuming Silver is now a free agent, or is she?

 

[Fairlight0306]

The game doesn't propagate her viewpoint and paints her as a damaged, corrupted, dangerous person capable of pain, cruelty and lies. The writing doesn't ask you to take her word as gospel. If you're drawing wrong conclusions from what she says, that's on you.

Well that's exacly what are you doing depicting her as a perfect being, generous, still attracted by Caleb etc etc despite the fact the game paints her as a damaged, corrupted, dangerous person capable of pain, cruelty and lies. So what is it? You in the end agreeing with us or what?

 

[IamKhronos]

imma just say it, the way the game build up caleb as a monster made it seem he did a truly horrendous act for marie to perform such act as ritual of ash. dont get me wrong while most agree to an eye for an eye and wouldnt condemn caleb for what he did, you still dont make a right with two wrongs.
but thats a different debate. Just saying it felt like he did a much larger horrific act. (on a different note, was that his voice of the emperor persuasion thingy at work as well)

Marie on the other hand tho, went to the extreme. most likely looking for power to never feel powerless and shit snowballed from there.




different note:

i do like seeing lilith development. fav character so far, followed by Silver and Rayne and yes Marie.

Edit: I would like to add, the fact that Caleb reveal felt so lack luster is also due to a few things. Marie hyping him the fuck up as a definite of a monster to the likes like Silver, invictus and whoever else called her daughter of eve, would suggest he is on the lv of powerfully supernatural some who at least have lived a few centuries.

If pursuing Rayne, discussion comes up about "now I understand why you were never afraid of demons, vampire etc etc, cause you're afraid of yourself "

Sure we can say he is afraid what he is cable of, of becoming a bigger monster, bust most of it is based on that single act of convincing dan to kill himself. Every mention him being a monster is based on that. Which is why it felt so meh.

Do I believe he is capable of more horrific things, yes, given the tools to act on, sure. It's just that one instance, felt overhyped.

Regardless, looking forward to next update.

 

[Vidal the king of Pervert]

imma just say it, the way the game build up caleb as a monster made it seem he did a truly horrendous act for marie to perform such act as ritual of ash. dont get me wrong while most agree to an eye for an eye and wouldnt condemn caleb for what he did, you still dont make a right with two wrongs.
but thats a different debate. Just saying it felt like he did a much larger horrific act. (on a different note, was that his voice of the emperor persuasion thingy at work as well)

Marie on the other hand tho, went to the extreme. most likely looking for power to never feel powerless and shit snowballed from there.




different note:

i do like seeing lilith development. fav character so far, followed by Silver and Rayne and yes Marie.

Edit: I would like to add, the fact that Caleb reveal felt so lack luster is also due to a few things. Marie hyping him the fuck up as a definite of a monster to the likes like Silver, invictus and whoever else called her daughter of eve, would suggest he is on the lv of powerfully supernatural some who at least have lived a few centuries.

If pursuing Rayne, discussion comes up about "now I understand why you were never afraid of demons, vampire etc etc, cause you're afraid of yourself "

Sure we can say he is afraid what he is cable of, of becoming a bigger monster, bust most of it is based on that single act of convincing dan to kill himself. Every mention him being a monster is based on that. Which is why it felt so meh.

Do I believe he is capable of more horrific things, yes, given the tools to act on, sure. It's just that one instance, felt overhyped.

Regardless, looking forward to next update.

Except I don't see it as too wrong

justice

As much as I love the game, and I love
Stolen_rose

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[N1ghtcrawler]

imma just say it, the way the game build up caleb as a monster made it seem he did a truly horrendous act for marie to perform such act as ritual of ash. dont get me wrong while most agree to an eye for an eye and wouldnt condemn caleb for what he did, you still dont make a right with two wrongs.
but thats a different debate. Just saying it felt like he did a much larger horrific act. (on a different note, was that his voice of the emperor persuasion thingy at work as well)

Honestly, I thought from the beginning that he just randomly killed innocent people during some experiment with magic. When Daniel showed up, I started to think he accidentally killed him.

you still dont make a right with two wrongs.

That's the thing, putting the law aside, there's no right answer here. It's a moral dilemma. Murdering a rapist is a moral dilemma if it's obvious that the accused committed the crime (otherwise it's an ethical failure).

Vengeance or Justice
Retribution or Ethics
Victim Empathy or Social Norms

Caleb's dilemma is more complicated:
- The rapist is his friend and he's remorseful.
- His girlfriend feels resentment towards him.

A moral dilemma has a solution. But it's different for each person.


Vidal the king of Pervert

you're absolutely right brother it's different for each person for me

and

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[Vidal the king of Pervert]

Honestly, I thought from the beginning that he just randomly killed innocent people during some experiment with magic. When Daniel showed up, I started to think he accidentally killed him.

That's the thing, putting the law aside, there's no right answer here. It's a moral dilemma. Murdering a rapist is a moral dilemma if it's obvious that the accused committed the crime (otherwise it's an ethical failure).

Vengeance or Justice
Retribution or Ethics
Victim Empathy or Social Norms

Caleb's dilemma is more complicated:
- The rapist is his friend and he's remorseful.
- His girlfriend feels resentment towards him.

A moral dilemma has a solution. But it's different for each person.

you're absolutely right brother it's different for each person for me

and

Spoiler: Zero End

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[Stolen_rose]

Normally, I wouldn't engage and I won't beyond this because I feel a discussion like this isn't one in which the author should be involved. But I feel like I have to because the way some people are talking about this subject makes it seem like I condone what happened to Marie. I do not, and I wanted to clarify that. Just because I have

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as a theme does not mean that I am minimizing that horrific act.

Spoiler: I'll just post this

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[Vidal the king of Pervert]

Normally, I wouldn't engage and I won't beyond this because I feel a discussion like this isn't one in which the author should be involved. But I feel like I have to because the way some people are talking about this subject makes it seem like I condone what happened to Marie. I do not, and I wanted to clarify that. Just because I have

You must be registered to see the links

as a theme does not mean that I am minimizing that horrific act.

Spoiler: I'll just post this

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I have not looked at everybody's comment to know what everybody said but from my comment I mean no disrespect and I still

absolutely love the game I was just sharing my opinion that I'm upset

Spoiler: Zero End

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[crabsinthekitchen]

imma just say it, the way the game build up caleb as a monster made it seem he did a truly horrendous act for marie to perform such act as ritual of ash. dont get me wrong while most agree to an eye for an eye and wouldnt condemn caleb for what he did, you still dont make a right with two wrongs.
but thats a different debate. Just saying it felt like he did a much larger horrific act. (on a different note, was that his voice of the emperor persuasion thingy at work as well)

I kind of agree. From earlier depictions, I expected him doing to Daniel something similar to what Swansong did to Keira

 

[Fairlight0306]

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[_Sen _]

Putting aside the moral implications of killing a rapist, I think this is one example where having a fixed name and personality of the protagonist shines. I think Rose mentioned early on that Caleb wasn't supposed to be a self-insert and had his own set of values. So regardless what we as players feel was just or not, Caleb was tormented by his actions.

Similarly, Marie somehow resented Caleb for the rape and the then the subsequent abettment to suicide which doesn't seem justified. But again, Marie has her own belief system independent of the player. However skewed that may be.

P.S Unrelated to this discussion, Caleb picked up smoking after Daniel's suicide. I hope that with Lily's help, he can quit the habit as he leaves the relics of his past behind.

 

[AL.d]

If you just didn't like it, I wouldn't be arguing with you. Who cares. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm refuting your arguments because they're wrong. You twisted Caleb's view to fit your own, used it when it suited you, then brushed it off when it didn't. Now it's "I just don't like it". Alright.

So a bunch of people would choose to ruin a person's life to satisfy their values. That tells you nothing. It's textbook argumentum ad populum, but worse: it's attached to a moral dilemma that by definition can only be resolved individually. There is no objective right answer here, just differing values and their consequences. A poll doesn't validate anything. It just shows how many people are willing to project their own worldview onto someone who clearly doesn't share it and for whom it would be destructive.

That line crosses from interpretation into melodrama.
Caleb himself views what he did as morally catastrophic. But the game presents his pain as personal and complex.

Marie calls Caleb's act worse than anything she's done, but then she's also a tyrant destroying lives left and right. So which is it? Is she a credible moral authority, or a manipulative cult leader whose words shouldn't be taken at face value?

Marie usually throws those lines when Caleb challenges what she's become. It's deflection, a classic whataboutism. Sometimes she accepts his act and turns it against him ( "I was misguided, let's say. Naive." ), sometimes she weaponizes his guilt because she knows it cuts deep.

Caleb isn't a passive victim. Even when he's hurt by her words, he sees her manipulations and exposes them. There's a moral debate going on between them. But just because he's right doesn't mean she can't respond in kind. These are psychological fight from someone who knows exactly where to stab.

As for your exact example, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. She thought he would agree with what she's doing because of his act in the past. And between the lines, she, of course, twists the knife. The entire scene she is manipulating and mocking him.

The game doesn't propagate her viewpoint and paints her as a damaged, corrupted, dangerous person capable of pain, cruelty and lies. The writing doesn't ask you to take her word as gospel. If you're drawing wrong conclusions from what she says, that's on you.

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Normally, I wouldn't engage and I won't beyond this because I feel a discussion like this isn't one in which the author should be involved. But I feel like I have to because the way some people are talking about this subject makes it seem like I condone what happened to Marie. I do not, and I wanted to clarify that. Just because I have

You must be registered to see the links

as a theme does not mean that I am minimizing that horrific act.

Spoiler: I'll just post this

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Spoiler

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[Ikalkeki]

This place now be like

Not that I mind.