VN Ren'Py Completed A Knight's Tale [v0.36 SE] [Neverlucky]

[Nova1811]

I don't remember the word "manipulated" ever being used. Look I get some players want and need brainless virginal mc cock addicted love interests, well that isn't Cathy.

The mc and wife are equal loving partners. Strong and sexual women put off some players, I understand that. What I don't understand is this vn has been that way from the beginning and never looked to be changing but those that hate it still come around to piss and moan.

She talked the mc into doing something while hidding her ulterior motive of getting something she wanted

manipulative
[ muh-nip-yuh-ley-tiv, -yuh-luh-tiv ]

adjective
influencing or attempting to influence the behavior or emotions of others for one’s own purposes

And people can like a game while still hating certain aspects of it. Shocking, i know..
If you want an echo chamber where everyone only say positive things about stuff you like, a public forum might not be for you, buddy.

 

[WaltS]

She talked the mc into doing something while hidding her ulterior motive of getting something she wanted

manipulative
[ muh-nip-yuh-ley-tiv, -yuh-luh-tiv ]

adjective
influencing or attempting to influence the behavior or emotions of others for one’s own purposes

And people can like a game while still hating certain aspects of it. Shocking, i know..
If you want an echo chamber where everyone only say positive things about stuff you like, a public forum might not be for you, buddy.

Sheesh, could you please give it a rest already?
Methinks we get what your opinion is...

 

[LWtbo]

She talked the mc into doing something while hidding her ulterior motive of getting something she wanted

manipulative
[ muh-nip-yuh-ley-tiv, -yuh-luh-tiv ]

adjective
influencing or attempting to influence the behavior or emotions of others for one’s own purposes

And people can like a game while still hating certain aspects of it. Shocking, i know..
If you want an echo chamber where everyone only say positive things about stuff you like, a public forum might not be for you, buddy.

No offence but to be honest and im not having a go at you.
But it has been my experience when arguing a point over what is actually said in game.
That you would of been far better off and much better served in your argument by actually quoting the line in the game where she admits to manipulating the MC.
Rather than just by quoting the definition of Manipulative from a dictionary.

Just Sayin.

 

[Nova1811]

No offence but to be honest and im not having a go at you.
But it has been my experience when arguing a point over what is actually said in game.
That you would of been far better off and much better served in your argument by actually quoting the line in the game where she admits to manipulating the MC.
Rather than just by quoting the definition of Manipulative from a dictionary.

Just Sayin.

No offense taken.

His point was that she didn't use the word manipulate, which is true.
Though she did say that she encouraged the MC to go for Alice so that she could get with the maid, which is by definition manipulation.
If i were to use the exact quote, i would have to replay the game up to the point she said it, only for it to be dismissed with another copium filled argument.
Is that really worth it?

 

[j4yj4m]

Though she did say that she encouraged the MC to go for Alice so that she could get with the maid, which is by definition manipulation.
If i were to use the exact quote, i would have to replay the game up to the point she said it, only for it to be dismissed with another copium filled argument.
Is that really worth it?

I feel like this whole discussion has gone in a pretty different direction from where it started. Of course she objectively used a little bit of MC's guilty conscience to get what she wanted, but I'm not sure what's the point to argue about that? Is that enought to reward some kind of NTR tag? No.
Is it even subjectively seen as something negative by MC? I don't recall some kind of monolog/dialog where he's even thinking/talking about declining her request (even though he could) and only agrees because he has to or because he has been manipulated. I mean one can argue that she kinda "pushed" him to agree to something he would have agreed to anyway, but I'm not sure why one would do that or would be upset about that?

I'm just trying to understand why this disussion is happening? Is there any indication that her behaviour actually changed the outcome?

 

[Nemo56]

Is it even subjectively seen as something negative by MC?

Not that I know of. However he felt bad before he knew, at least it seemed so.

 

[Nova1811]

I feel like this whole discussion has gone in a pretty different direction from where it started. Of course she objectively used a little bit of MC's guilty conscience to get what she wanted, but I'm not sure what's the point to argue about that? Is that enought to reward some kind of NTR tag? No.
Is it even subjectively seen as something negative by MC? I don't recall some kind of monolog/dialog where he's even thinking/talking about declining her request (even though he could) and only agrees because he has to or because he has been manipulated. I mean one can argue that she kinda "pushed" him to agree to something he would have agreed to anyway, but I'm not sure why one would do that or would be upset about that?

I'm just trying to understand why this disussion is happening? Is there any indication that her behaviour actually changed the outcome?

It changed because no one answered my question, and just focused on the manipulation part.
And just because the person you have been manipulative towards doesn't seem to mind in hindsight, doesn't mean it wasn't manipulative.
I never even mentioned NTR. But if you need to put words in my mouth to have a point, go ahead i guess?

Now, back to my original question. Why wasn't she honest from the beginning?
Because strong relationships are built on trust, especially if you want an open relationship. So why did she feel the need to wait until the MC took the first steps with Alice, before she came clean about her actual motives?

 

[Spfjolietjake]

It changed because no one answered my question, and just focused on the manipulation part.
And just because the person you have been manipulative towards doesn't seem to mind in hindsight, doesn't mean it wasn't manipulative.
I never even mentioned NTR. But if you need to put words in my mouth to have a point, go ahead i guess?

Now, back to my original question. Why wasn't she honest from the beginning?
Because strong relationships are built on trust, especially if you want an open relationship. So why did she feel the need to wait until the MC took the first steps with Alice, before she came clean about her actual motives?

I feel your projecting. I didn't feel or remember her lying. Also at the same time the mc was wanting it all too. I don't remember her being untrustworthy or even selfish.

A painting can be seen by different people who see it totally unique and differently. I'll chalk this up to that. As I can not agree or explain something that I don't feel ever happen.

 

[Nova1811]

I feel your projecting. I didn't feel or remember her lying. Also at the same time the mc was wanting it all too. I don't remember her being untrustworthy or even selfish.

A painting can be seen by different people who see it totally unique and differently. I'll chalk this up to that. As I can not agree or explain something that I don't feel ever happen.

I'm not saying that she lied. But she didn't tell him her full plan from the get go either, and that is a fact. There was no way for him to make a fully educated decision, since after he went for Alice it would be weird for him to oppose Cathy from going after Lydia. Even if the MC would never do that , it's about the principle.

Her end goal wasn't selfish as it was for all of them to be happy together. I just feel like the way she did it shows some trust issues in their marriage. Not just from the act itself but also that maybe she didn't trust the MC to be understanding about the bigger picture unless she did it the way she did.

Anyway, I took LWtbo's advice to find the quote and skimmed a bit through the game until i found this:

Spoiler

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And also that Cathy started fooling around with Lydia, before she confessed about her feeling for her towards the MC.

 

[Spfjolietjake]

I'm not saying that she lied. But she didn't tell him her full plan from the get go either, and that is a fact. There was no way for him to make a fully educated decision, since after he went for Alice it would be weird for him to oppose Cathy from going after Lydia. Even if the MC would never do that , it's about the principle.

Her end goal wasn't selfish as it was for all of them to be happy together. I just feel like the way she did it shows some trust issues in their marriage. Not just from the act itself but also that maybe she didn't trust the MC to be understanding about the bigger picture unless she did it the way she did.

Anyway, I took LWtbo's advice to find the quote and skimmed a bit through the game until i found this:

Spoiler

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And also that Cathy started fooling around with Lydia, before she confessed about her feeling for her towards the MC.

I can see your point there, but I don't doubt their trust of each other except maybe she would be afraid he would be afraid to hurt her.

We join them after years of marriage. We have zero idea if they had discussed this type of thing before or not.

Other than that I really don't know but I still say they have a healthy and strong marriage

Kudos on finding the exact quote as it had been a while since I read it.

 

[j4yj4m]

Now, back to my original question. Why wasn't she honest from the beginning?
Because strong relationships are built on trust, especially if you want an open relationship. So why did she feel the need to wait until the MC took the first steps with Alice, before she came clean about her actual motives?

I think you are idealizing things way, way, waaay too much. Even in very good relationships people have inhibitions, weak moments and aren't as daring as they could be. Maybe she actually wanted to tell him right away but lost confidence while she was speaking? We won't know unless neverlucky tells us. Yes, she didn't tell him everything right away, we've repeated that, but she asked him explicitly before she got serious and he had every chance to reject her proposal, as you've qouted. Just because it's awkward doesn't mean that it's impossible if he had felt strongly about it. To me all of this is pretty much fair game, especially because she was the one who actually took the risk because she "allowed" MC to fool around with Alice before she even asked for her part of the deal. So she was certainly the one who had much more to lose because she gave away her part of the bargain "for free".

So in conlusion thinking about it I'd claim that she didn't even subjectively manipulate him (which is a strong word) in narrow sense of the word. For the simple reason that he'd have agreed anyway (and not only in hindsight!) as there's not a single indication I remember that he wouldn't have. If neverlucky didn't think it was nescessarry to voice the slightest bit of (internal) opposition of MC to what Cathy did, we shouldn't assume that, either.

Late edit: Last but not least I'm pretty much sure this was used as a plot device to create a least a little, little bit of suspense (which the game lacks a bit anway). It's a very important point of the game and if they had just made a deal it would have been even more boring.

 

[Nova1811]

she would be afraid he would be afraid to hurt her.

That's true, i hadn't thought about that possibility.

I think you are idealizing things way, way, waaay too much. Even in very good relationships people have inhibitions and aren't as daring as they could be. Maybe she actually wanted to tell him right away but lost confidence while she was speaking? We won't know unless neverlucky tells us. Yes, she didn't tell him everything right away, we've repeated that, but she asked him explicitly before she got serious and he had every chance to reject her proposal, as you've qouted. Just because it's awkward doesn't mean that it's impossible if he had felt strongly about it.

Last but not least again, thinking about it I'd claim that she didn't even subjectively manipulate him (which is a strong word) in narrow sense of the word. For the simple reason that he'd have agreed anyway (and not only in hindsight!) as there's not a single indication I remember that he wouldn't have. If neverlucky didn't think it was nescessarry to voice the slightest bit of (internal) opposition of MC to what Cathy did, we shouldn't assume that, either.

Having inhibitions is fine, but if it's about feelings for someone other than the SO, and they actually act on it behind their back things can get rather ugly.

And it depends on what you define as serious. In my opinion things are already serious when it becomes sexual.
Which is exactly what happened between Cathy and Lydia before she asked the MC how he feels about them being together.

I already posted the definition of manipulation and how it fits into this situation. And how it's still manipulation no matter how the other person feels about it afterwards. I have nothing more to say about it without repeating the same things over and over again, so if you still have problems with that then that's on you.

 

[j4yj4m]

I already posted the definition of manipulation and how it fits into this situation. And how it's still manipulation no matter how the other person feels about it afterwards. I have nothing more to say about it without repeating the same things over and over again, so if you still have problems with that then that's on you.

Well, if you don't even want to accept that there's a objective and subjective element to manipulating people and if you aren't willling to go even a little into any kind of depth, then I'm not sure why you even brought that up in the first place. You simply posted the shortest possible definition you could find and now want everybody do agee with you. That's not how it works, sorry.

PS: Facepalms do count as likes on the counter, so I'm not really sure wheter you really have to facepalm every post you disagree with.

Edit: But yes, it's probably better if we stop this discussion now. It's not leading us anywhere anway.

 

[Nova1811]

Well, if you don't even want to accept that there's a objective and subjective element to manipulating people and if you aren't willling to go even a little into any kind of depth, then I'm not sure why you even brought that up in the first place. You simply posted the shortest possible definition you could find and now want everybody do agee with you. That's not how it works, sorry.

PS: Facepalms do count as likes on the counter, so I'm not really sure wheter you really have to facepalm every post you disagree with.

No, See:

I have nothing more to say about it without repeating the same things over and over again.

Besides i brought it up as part of what lead up to my question, which has been answered already.
And if we keep arguing about the word it's self, it has nothing to do with the game anymore which means we go off-topic.
But if you are that desperate to keep it going, you can PM me
Edit: nevermind you already said it

Also:

But if you need to put words in my mouth to have a point, go ahead i guess?

Anyway, i'm aware that facepalms show up as likes. But they are there for a reason so i might as well use them, no?
Infact i'm in a good mood today, so i'm feeling generous. Have another one for your like count, though be careful not to spend them all in one place, alright bud?

 

[TheGhost13579]

Just caught up on the game and am now wondering if Pike planned all this

 

[cxx]

Just caught up on the game and am now wondering if Pike planned all this

possibly. not planned that daughter getting banged by mc and his wife.

 

[Irgendwie Irgendwo]

Just caught up on the game and am now wondering if Pike planned all this

Any other VN, maybe, but not in Groundhog Day: The Game.

 

[yangengqiu]

I play this game.but The plot is very insipid 。

 

[Tarvod]

Why are all the apostrophes backwards? it makes it very jarring to read

 

[cxx]

Why are all the apostrophes backwards? it makes it very jarring to read

those aren't meant to be read.