Making choices from Laura's POV would be a bit of a bitch to implement using this mystery format. Harry is constant across either mode and his version of events always comes first
- Thread starter HangoverCat
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- Nov 21, 2018
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I've always thought that the idea of 'self-inserting' was more of meme insult by 'edgy boys' to criticize people who are capable of basic empathy.
Like you, I don't 'self-insert' when I read an NTR story, but if the MC is written well enough, and the story draws me in, I'll end up feeling bad for him (and consequentially, enjoying the NTR more for some reason
). In ABLU, Harry is sympathetic enough in most routes to achieve that, but it's increased by the fact that he's surrounded by genuinely shitty people: Luca, a bully from Harry's past who is infatuated with the idea of making him suffer, and Laura, a headcase who claims to love Harry, but then betrays his trust and over-punishes him for his shortcomings in almost every ending so far.I love Laura and Luca's character designs for the NTR scenarios they create, but, outside of those scenarios, I despise them for who they are as people and naturally want to see their plans fail.
However, if you 'self-insert' (
) as either Laura or Luca because you relate to them in some way, then you despise Harry and want him to suffer more.This expands on the conversation about people coming to NTR for different things. People who come to NTR are also capable of different things. Personally, I'm not capable of seeing characters like Laura and Luca in a sympathetic light. Those who are capable of that will never be able to see eye-to-eye with people like me, nor we with them.
...Which is why I don't bother arguing much.
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- Jun 23, 2018
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That's the reason i'd usually like to have at least 1 ending where their games falls. Most of the times i despite more the morally-twisted girl, overpunishing her lover for one small thing he did ( compared to her shit), rather than the actual villain/bully. It may even be the ending i like the least, but i love to have it for some karma/justice purposesLike you, I don't 'self-insert' when I read an NTR story, but if the MC is written well enough, and the story draws me in, I'll end up feeling bad for him (and consequentially, enjoying the NTR more for some reason
I love Laura and Luca's character designs for the NTR scenarios they create, but, outside of those scenarios, I despise them for who they are as people and naturally want to see their plans fail.
It would be very expensive to have art to cover all the variations and it would be hard to write story to hold it all together. So the only option would be to give illusion of choice which would make players unsatisfied anyway. HC answered why we will not get to chose rules already.
However I do like the rules idea myself, maybe someone can make a NTR version of trainer based on them.
For me the pure ending enhances the corruption aspect that is why I always play it first. RIPThat's the reason i'd usually like to have at least 1 ending where their games falls. Most of the times i despite more the morally-twisted girl, overpunishing her lover for one small thing he did ( compared to her shit), rather than the actual villain/bully. It may even be the ending i like the least, but i love to have it for some karma/justice purposes
I personally don't hate villain characters in fiction. Sure in a moment to moment action I will want them to lose but there is no lasting emotion. Often enough they are victims of circumstances - like a kid that suffers abuse grows to be abuser - sure they are abuser in this story but it is fiction, right? So we can make another piece of fiction where they get help at the right time and not become abusers.I've always thought that the idea of 'self-inserting' was more of meme insult by 'edgy boys' to criticize people who are capable of basic empathy.
Like you, I don't 'self-insert' when I read an NTR story, but if the MC is written well enough, and the story draws me in, I'll end up feeling bad for him (and consequentially, enjoying the NTR more for some reason
I love Laura and Luca's character designs for the NTR scenarios they create, but, outside of those scenarios, I despise them for who they are as people and naturally want to see their plans fail.
However, if you 'self-insert' (
This expands on the conversation about people coming to NTR for different things. People who come to NTR are also capable of different things. Personally, I'm not capable of seeing characters like Laura and Luca in a sympathetic light. Those who are capable of that will never be able to see eye-to-eye with people like me, nor we with them.
...Which is why I don't bother arguing much.
Regarding empathy towards evil characters - because they are built to be evil/bad in overreaching story does not mean they don't suffer, seeing a character suffer will naturally induce compassion. If you say that at no point you feel sympathy for them it is because you have conditioned yourself to not feel positive emotion towards said characters.
- Nov 21, 2018
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The reason for a villain's actions doesn't matter. The moment they turn their pain outward and begin to harm innocent people, they no longer deserve sympathy or compassion. The just deserve to be dealt with. We can listen to their traumatic past after they stop causing trauma for other people.
Now, if they do something great to redeem themselves, then maybe they can get some sympathy points.
No. Seeing a good character suffer will naturally induce compassion. Most normal people like seeing the bad guy get what they deserve and suffer for their wrong-doings.
Case in point: Not a tear was shed when Darth Vader killed Emperor Palpatine, dude. However, people did feel sympathy for Darth Vader, even though he was a villain, because he redeemed himself and showed some goodness by killing the emperor.
...If you feel sympathy for someone who hurts innocent people (ie. a villain), then you need therapy. Just like those women who were sending Ted Bundy and Charles Manson love letters while they were in prison.
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Let me start with reminder that we talk about fiction.The reason for a villain's actions, their personal sob story, doesn't matter. The moment they turn their pain outward and begin to harm innocent people, they no longer deserve sympathy or compassion. The just deserve to be dealt with.
Now, if they do something great to redeem themselves, then maybe they can get some sympathy points.
No. Seeing a good character suffer will naturally induce compassion. Most normal people like seeing the bad guy get what they deserve and suffer for their wrong-doings.
Case in point: Not a tear was shed when Darth Vader killed Emperor Palpatine, dude. However, people did feel sympathy for Darth Vader, even though he was a villain, because he redeemed himself and showed some goodness by killing the emperor.
...If you feel sympathy for someone who hurts innocent people (ie. a villain), then you need therapy. Just like those women who were sending Ted Bundy and Charles Manson love letters while they were in prison.
Sympathy is felt when correct circumstances are created.
At which point was Emperor Palpatine presented in situation that could invoke compassion? The moment he is being defeated is not a compassion moment but a moment of triumph for the other guy.
Roll eyes. So basically anyone christian needs therapy ?...If you feel sympathy for someone who hurts innocent people (ie. a villain), then you need therapy. Just like those women who were sending Ted Bundy and Charles Manson love letters while they were in prison.
Also nice sophism there I talk about sympathy towards evil characters in moment of suffering and you bring in example of being infatuated because of evil deeds.
- Nov 21, 2018
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What you're talking about is called retconning. Rewriting a character after the fact to try and change who they were in the original story.
I'm not going there with you because you can retcon anything to make it what you want it to be.
"Hey, you guys. I found this fanfic that says Emperor Palpatine was actually just being mind controlled. He was a good guy the whole time. This totally changes the canon story where he was basically shown to be evil incarnate. "
My turn to roll my eyes.
Edit: Okay, rethinking this. Retconning is a bad word for what you're doing. But my general point still stands. The way a character is portrayed in a story is who they are for the purposes of that story. You can't just ignore their characterization because "it's fiction". If you do that then nothing matters at all.
Terrible example.
Christians subscribe to a belief system that teaches them to forgive everyone of everything. They aren't representative of the average person. But even christians have a villain they won't sympathize with. You might have heard of him. They call him Satan.
Besides, a christian will be happy to let a bad person go to hell if they refuse to stop being a bad person. Don't ignore that I said this:
The moment they turn their pain outward and begin to harm innocent people, they no longer deserve sympathy or compassion. The just deserve to be dealt with. We can listen to their traumatic past after they stop causing trauma for other people.
It wasn't sophism. It was a joke. Hence the
at the end. Why so serious?
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This was just a reasoning why I don't hate fictional characters. More so in story with choices that are simply limited by what author can realistically cover.
One thing this is not hating fictional characters another is being able to feel compassion for them.
Compassion is felt when the right circumstances are crated regardless if character is good or evil. First thing is that there need to be enough character development for the reader to understand the character. Second the suffering can not be at odds with feelings of another more relatable character. Third their suffering can't be seen as justice, karma and what not. This one is a bit difficult and people often go too far with what they consider justice. BTW. there may be more to creating correct circumstances but those come to my mind now.
I think Luca in our story is great example - he is a bad person through and through but at the end of route we learn about his childhood. At that point he was not a bad person, he was just a kid with life rigged against him as he was child of an absolute asshole. We learn that he was forced to shoot his own mom and that mom presumably shouted all those things to him not because she hated her child but because she knew that if that child don't shoot her the sadistic father may kill him as well. If you rewind yourself to that situation and not feel compassion towards them I don't know what to say. This is not justice. karma or anything like that.
Satan is not a person it is the source of all evil. We are also not talking about average person but a goal, an ideal. The ideal is to be able to forgive everyone everything, to feel compassion for your tormentors because somewhere there in their life that seed of evil was placed in them. Meanwhile you have called for therapy.
I agree but this is not what we are discussing here. We are not talking about situation where the evil person is suffering as result of their action, not a situation where sane person could say "This has befallen me because i did bad things". No, we are talking about suffering caused by unrelated events, suffering that they may cause them to do more bad things, finally suffering that often comes before they could be even be classified as bad person.
Also I'm not saying that their past suffering abolishes them from their guilt or makes them better person. I'm only saying that feeling compassion towards their suffering is not a bad thing.
I believe this to be rather serious subject, not to mention that joke was placed after pretty serious accusation. Maybe it was not the best place to joke?It wasn't sophism. It was a joke. Hence the
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Incoming wall of text jokes
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- Nov 21, 2018
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when I started getting into manga and anime I felt that I was self inserting a lot mostly because I was trying to run away from reality.... but everything changed when ntr nation attacked lolI've always thought that the idea of 'self-inserting' was more of meme insult by 'edgy boys' to criticize people who are capable of basic empathy.
Like you, I don't 'self-insert' when I read an NTR story, but if the MC is written well enough, and the story draws me in, I'll end up feeling bad for him (and consequentially, enjoying the NTR more for some reason
I love Laura and Luca's character designs for the NTR scenarios they create, but, outside of those scenarios, I despise them for who they are as people and naturally want to see their plans fail.
However, if you 'self-insert' (
This expands on the conversation about people coming to NTR for different things. People who come to NTR are also capable of different things. Personally, I'm not capable of seeing characters like Laura and Luca in a sympathetic light. Those who are capable of that will never be able to see eye-to-eye with people like me, nor we with them.
...Which is why I don't bother arguing much.
jokes aside, I do have some fear of being cucked but that mostly come from reddit stories since the majority of those stories are from woman cheating on their partner.
Regarding harry, I believe he is not a saint, but he is the at least shittiest person of the cast since he is more of an idealistic rather then realistic person since he wants to be equal to laura and denied some progress in their relationship because he had put laura in a pedestal rather than treat her as an equal, not saying that laura is better than him in anyway. Then again, there are guys that are like that (there are mutiple stories like that, but the difference is that guys doesn't noticed that aspect because they are blinded by emotions)
P.s. might contradict myself without realizing it
People calling Harry weak and/or shitty: let's talk about long-term trauma response and what kind of person trauma influences someone to become. Even if quickly brushed off, two traumatic events in Harry's past (the bullying and having his former gf coerced into prostitution) are mentioned; how does he deal internally with these events? It's not mentioned whether he got therapy but his internal monologue indicates he goes on a principled mission to try and better himself, to try and make himself "worthy" (self-worth but in relation to equalizing a perceived uneven field regarding the relationship with his partner. Either way, is a self-betterment drive). Now, is that indicative of a weak or shitty person? More so if you take into account the other two examples of trauma response presented. In one, the character has to deal with their parents separation; that leads to an adult with an disturbingly flawed decision making process and a highly warped way of coping with cognitive dissonance (Laura). The other has to deal with a criminal environment upbringing, a judgemental mother and this two elements mixing up to tragic effect; all these result into an unrepentant narcissist with sociopathic/criminal behaviours (Luca). Now, which is more indicative of the shitty/weak resulting adult: the chaotic mess of a person, the evil mess of a person or the idealistic/aspirational wannabe of a person ?
Someone also objected to Harry's observational skills (going through a whole zoom meeting not seeing his gf is having sex with someone else and also all the other moments of "sex behind the curtain" trope variation when he is oblivious to what's happening in his proximity). That's putting false expectations on Harry; he is just a realistic person/character, with a realistic mindset and realistic behaviours, functioning inside an unrealistic environment. I call it unrealistic environment because the universe of APBLU functions by the rules of porn logic (that's too self-evident to bother debating. Just take the way PIV sex works if you gotta start somewhere in seeing porn logic in action). So Harry, the realistic behaviour character, observing that a porn logic trope is happening in front of his eyes - is not gonna happen, he won’t see what he’d otherwise see - because it would break the (porn) logic that governs the respective universe. It would be like the stepbro actually helping the stepsis to get unstuck without fucking her, or like the pizza delivery man not actually delivering the unpaid pizza instead of being payed with sex. So of course Harry will not (cannot) observe the gf having sex with someone else during the video call. Being disappointed by a realistic character behaving realistically while inside an unrealistic medium would be like throwing a cyclist into a rugby game and being disappointed he cannot scrummage as well as the rugby players.
And before saying that since I don't like NTR my opinion has no value within a NTR related thread, I see this as more of a book club discussion (of sorts). Not enjoying all aspects of a book doesn't mean I cannot consider it good writing. My objections to NTR are related more to the framework in which it puts basic cheating (as a variation of sex and not as an abuse framework) and not to its value as a story-driving element. And the "book club" will have all types of commenters: the eloquent, nuance-opinionated observer/organizer of chaos (like mr. mzer0 ) , the bemused and jokey but when necessary well-informed/based opinionated observer (like mr. NewTricks ), the conspiracy theorist, the must-be-included by all means insecure observer, the edgelord that is contrarian only for shock value, the demagogue that cannot see his own bullshit, the purist that only values writing, the casual barely involved porn enjoyer and so on. And each brings their own value to the discussion, however partisan they may be.
Someone also objected to Harry's observational skills (going through a whole zoom meeting not seeing his gf is having sex with someone else and also all the other moments of "sex behind the curtain" trope variation when he is oblivious to what's happening in his proximity). That's putting false expectations on Harry; he is just a realistic person/character, with a realistic mindset and realistic behaviours, functioning inside an unrealistic environment. I call it unrealistic environment because the universe of APBLU functions by the rules of porn logic (that's too self-evident to bother debating. Just take the way PIV sex works if you gotta start somewhere in seeing porn logic in action). So Harry, the realistic behaviour character, observing that a porn logic trope is happening in front of his eyes - is not gonna happen, he won’t see what he’d otherwise see - because it would break the (porn) logic that governs the respective universe. It would be like the stepbro actually helping the stepsis to get unstuck without fucking her, or like the pizza delivery man not actually delivering the unpaid pizza instead of being payed with sex. So of course Harry will not (cannot) observe the gf having sex with someone else during the video call. Being disappointed by a realistic character behaving realistically while inside an unrealistic medium would be like throwing a cyclist into a rugby game and being disappointed he cannot scrummage as well as the rugby players.
And before saying that since I don't like NTR my opinion has no value within a NTR related thread, I see this as more of a book club discussion (of sorts). Not enjoying all aspects of a book doesn't mean I cannot consider it good writing. My objections to NTR are related more to the framework in which it puts basic cheating (as a variation of sex and not as an abuse framework) and not to its value as a story-driving element. And the "book club" will have all types of commenters: the eloquent, nuance-opinionated observer/organizer of chaos (like mr. mzer0 ) , the bemused and jokey but when necessary well-informed/based opinionated observer (like mr. NewTricks ), the conspiracy theorist, the must-be-included by all means insecure observer, the edgelord that is contrarian only for shock value, the demagogue that cannot see his own bullshit, the purist that only values writing, the casual barely involved porn enjoyer and so on. And each brings their own value to the discussion, however partisan they may be.
- Nov 21, 2018
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I wouldn't spend too much time thinking too hard about Harry's character. I haven't played the most recent update, but I've had it thoroughly spoiled for me and it sounds like Harry's character development throughout the entire story gets completely thrown out the window in the name of reaching a 'porn logic' ending.
That's just my take, though. YMMV when you play it yourself. Surely, a lot of people here are going to love it.
(Edit: And, to be fair, my opinion may change once I actually see it for myself (doubtful). But as of now, based off of what I've heard, I'm not really looking forward to it.)
Forgive me for not going into detail, but you'll see for yourself in a few days anyway.
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- May 29, 2022
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That is the problem with "mystery" NTR. On the cuck route devs already want to tease the player so they put all these unrealistic situations that are simply impossible to occur assuming the cuck is a human being of average intelligence. As for APBLU, it doesn't bother me because the game has an over the top style anyway, the cat's previous work already had this flavor. However if a dev wants to write a real "mystery" NTR they should: Unlock the heroine's perspective only after the cuck's is complete and on the cuck's perspective focus on subtle changes in the heroine's behaviour, instead of crazy sex scenes. But I understand that such approach is not popular since most people want a quick fap.
- Nov 21, 2018
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What you like is called 'Netori'. Here's a good example of a Netori game:
Hero Party Must Fall
Enjoy.
- May 9, 2020
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I agree with you.I haven't played the since the vanila ending and i played only from Harry's perspective.But i follow the forum and read the spoilers so i keep in touch with the game and it felt that as main character is mediocre.
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I don't care that much about the endings. Or not exactly having any expectations. For me, the base story, before the endings, was quite organically developed and fluent and even a bit innovative; but the endings were (again, just for me) of uneven quality: the vanilla ones were well executed but not exactly original, the Abrupt ending was incomplete (not vague, which can be a good thing - leaving blanks in a story for the reader to fill in can be good practice - but plain old unfinished), while the Hero endings are just trying too much to be everything at once that it becomes mostly a mess.
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- Nov 21, 2018
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You're right. Luca wants to make Harry miserable to prove that his idealistic way of viewing the world is wrong. This all stems from Luca's intense mommy issues. You could play the 'Clumsy Hero' ending if you want to know more...
- Nov 21, 2018
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I thoroughly enjoyed the build up as well, but the endings matter to me. Even if they are all bad (as in 'unhappy') ones, I still want them to make sense.
My mistake, I guess.
Edit: I have to keep reminding myself that I haven't played it yet.
I guess I still have some hope in that regard...
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