VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.201] [Lust & Passion]

[Alley_Cat]

Alley Cat - this response from you surprised me!

You quote code and individual word choices more than anyone on this forum.

Why would L&P leave in code and imagery that has no place in his creation?

He said he would remove it and he did - basic code house cleaning - nothing more than that.

I was meaning that deciding to remove the twist that is as you put it "flavor" that is overkill, not that removing it once he decided to was.

Are you for or against removal of the Twist?

 

[Kz87]

Correct me if I am wrong, for Sophia to have sexy scenes with Ellie she has to do something with someone else. To get the 1st shower scene she has to kiss Patricia, for the 2nd - kiss Julia. I guess for 3rd interaction between mother and daughter the catalyst would be Natalie?

 

[PaxHadrian17]

I was meaning that deciding to remove the twist that is as you put it "flavor" that is overkill, not that removing it once he decided to was.

Are you for or against removal of the Twist?

I'm fine with removing the twist and I even offered a way (Patreon post) L&P could have done it differently - he just chose to go a different way - his creation - his choice.



If the twist had been Ellie making this deal with Aiden and we discovered it when Sophia was spying on Ellie and Julia, I would have wanted the twist removed.

Those who dislike Dylan simply used it as their rallying cry for why it should be left in - which would then be justification to complain about EVERY neutral or positive interaction Sophia or Ellie had with Dylan for the rest of the VN.

There is no way to maintain a realistic journey with erotic growth between Sophia and anyone who did that!


The truth is - Liam's gambling issue and betting the house/putting the entire family at risk was downplayed by L&P in a very unrealistic fashion but there is no hue and cry for Sophia to force Liam to move to the office and leave her bed unattended... Let's be honest - how many who dislike Dylan would want him to have another way to get closer to Sophia (and this would certainly provide an opening)?

I don't see L&P as a professional writer.

He is a one man shop trying to develop every aspect of AWAM and this plot device didn't work the way L&P intended - per L&P. I think he is doing a great job considering all the different aspects of the AWAM story/creation he is trying to manage.

I recommended that L&P find a trusted confidant who had some writing skills and have that person provide a second set of eyes for future revs to avoid this kind of miss.

He is adding in help with translating and proofreading so perhaps this kind of feedback can come from those supporting him this way.

 

[Alley_Cat]

I'm fine with removing the twist and I even offered a way (Patreon post) L&P could have done it differently - he just chose to go a different way - his creation - his choice.

View attachment 977893

If the twist had been Ellie making this deal with Aiden and we discovered it when Sophia was spying on Ellie and Julia, I would have wanted the twist removed.

Those who dislike Dylan simply used it as their rallying cry for why it should be left in - which would then be justification to complain about EVERY neutral or positive interaction Sophia or Ellie had with Dylan for the rest of the VN.

There is no way to maintain a realistic journey with erotic growth between Sophia and anyone who did that!


The truth is - Liam's gambling issue and betting the house/putting the entire family at risk was downplayed by L&P in a very unrealistic fashion but there is no hue and cry for Sophia to force Liam to move to the office and leave her bed unattended... Let's be honest - how many who dislike Dylan would want him to have another way to get closer to Sophia and this would certainly provide an opening?

I don't see L&P as a professional writer.

He is a one man shop trying to develop every aspect of AWAM and this plot device didn't work the way L&P intended - per L&P. I think he is doing a great job considering all the different aspects of the AWAM story/creation he is trying to manage.

I recommended that L&P find a trusted confidant who had some writing skills and have that person provide a second set of eyes for future revs to avoid this kind of miss.

He is adding in help with translating and proofreading so perhaps this kind of feedback can come from those supporting him this way.

I believe L&P has also said those on the Dylan route but chose the boarding school route are for those who have already chosen to put an end to the Sophia/Dylan path, but that it opens up Amber/Dylan, and that the Twist was to have no effect whatsoever on those on the Sophia/Dylan path that choose to accept Aiden's tasks and that for all intents and purposes Aiden is the sole instigator of the blackmail.

 

[Bane71]

I am imagining how much fun. Sophia will do Dylan teasing like this
View attachment 977975

No, she's going to tease the football team like that.

 

[Hlextor]

There was even a post from a patron about how L&P has lost all his credibility, since he's willing to change the story to suit a minority of his patrons (around at most 30%)

This also does not correspond to the truth! It was an individual who claimed this. And we are definitely not the minority. The minority are the Dylan haters. Did he lose Pledger with that? He has won me for example with it!

 

[Hlextor]

But it appears to be a snap decision made a few days after the release with no time given for even patrons on lower tiers to have played the update.

And another nonsense from you! You don't seriously believe that L&P wouldn't have removed the twist if numerous people hadn't commented negatively on it. He confirmed to me that it was more or less a storm of indignation! Initially he was also against the removal. Only later after many objections did he relent.

 

[Alley_Cat]

This also does not correspond to the truth! It was an individual who claimed this. And we are definitely not the minority. The minority are the Dylan haters. Did he lose Pledger with that? He has won me for example with it!

I read the post you're probably referring to, and the math is pretty simple. Take the number of people who voted for Dylan as their favourite character, which is around 350. Divide that by the number of patrons, which at the time of release was 1348. Which results in 26%, so a little more than 1 in 4. A minority. And that assumes that every Dylan fan opposed the Twist.

 

[yihman1]

The twist could work as it was written, but it would permanently alter Dylan to be a psychopath.

If the twist came earlier before Dylan sexualized Sophia a number of times then it would have worked for Dylan not be psycho.

To determine Dylan's level of psychopathy when judging his Twist path you gotta add up his 2 possible motives. If motive 1 is the stronger he is not a psycho. If motive 2 is the stronger he is a psycho.

Motive 1 = Help Sophia with midlife crisis (The more noble Intended motive)

Motive 2 = A More Sexual Sophia (Unintended selfish motive that feels stronger)

If it happened earlier, and Sophia had shown more signs of a midlife crisis and Dylan more signs of trying to get her out of that it then it could have worked as intended... The problem is it came later than it should have and Dylan did not get enough of the "Here let me help you with your midlife crisis" subtext. So it felt like Motive 2 was the stronger of the 2.

Another unintended consequence of the twist is that it lets Aiden off of the hook to some degree. It wasn't even his idea and he was less of a bully.

It was not executed as intended, so it was cut. Nothing wrong with that a lot of big movies have deleted scenes and alternate endings. He misjudged that writing point and it happens to the best of us. That's why pencils have erasers.

 

[Hlextor]

I read the post you're probably referring to, and the math is pretty simple. Take the number of people who voted for Dylan as their favourite character, which is around 350. Divide that by the number of patrons, which at the time of release was 1348. Which results in 26%, so a little more than 1 in 4. A minority. And that assumes that every Dylan fan opposed the Twist.

Your calculation does not add up! It is not only patreons who can write to him!? His email address is not a secret. I was not a Patreon at that time either.

 

[Old Dog]

I didn't see that many patron posts complaining about the "Twist" but I did see people asking what the twist is and how to see it.
They did call for poll on whether or not to remove the twist but the dev decided against it.
So I guess he must of got a lot of e-mails

 

[Hlextor]

So I guess he must of got a lot of e-mails

Yes

 

[lockerxx]

what Twist was so bad.

 

[Old Dog]

If the dev wanted to know the true feeling of his patrons he should of held a poll when asked by his patrons,they are the ones that count not non patrons.
It was only after he had a discussion with a friend about the twist that he decided to remove the twist

 

[Hlextor]

There are some people here who talk pointless and haters wants Dylan to be completely removed from the story. I suggest you ignore them

I know. I've thought about ignoring dog and cat before. But why? Sometimes they write interesting posts. What just bothers me is that they don't deviate one millimeter from their negative attitude towards Dylan and always talking bad about him. But I assume that this will change in the near future.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

I read the post you're probably referring to, and the math is pretty simple. Take the number of people who voted for Dylan as their favourite character, which is around 350. Divide that by the number of patrons, which at the time of release was 1348. Which results in 26%, so a little more than 1 in 4. A minority. And that assumes that every Dylan fan opposed the Twist.

I understand how statistics work - and there are a variety of ways to have numbers 'tell' a story.

For those who like to quote the favorite character poll as gospel, then consider this:

Wouldn't the number of fans making Dylan their favorite character establish the bottom limit to those who wanted the twist removed?

This means that we assume that every person who says that Dylan is their favorite character = supports removing the twist.

The actual number of Patreons who would like the twist to be removed must be some number > the number of Patreons who selected Dylan as their favorite.

Those who dislike Dylan are making a false assumption (since we are using this poll as our basis for the assessment) that EVERY Patreon who did not select Dylan as his/her favorite wanted the twist to remain.

That is a non sequitur!

One could make the argument that 50% of those who selected other characters as their favorite also supported the removal of the twist. This would quite obviously put the % of remove the twist > % of do not remove the twist.



Since the poll was not - Do you approve of removing the twist yes/no, all anyone can do is spin the favorite character poll the way they want.

But, from a statistics perspective, if 1/3 or more of those who selected non-Dylan characters as their favorites supported removing the twist, then that would give us > 50% of the Patreons that supported removing the twist.

 

[pooya021]

hi guys I have a theory about sophia's odd behavior
1-dylan's door was open
2-sophia wonder why she is so horny
I think dylan drugged sophia because he wants take a shower with her
(sorry for my weak english skill)

 

[Old Dog]

I know. I've thought about ignoring dog and cat before. But why? Sometimes they write interesting posts. What just bothers me is that they don't deviate one millimeter from their negative attitude towards Dylan and always talking bad about him. But I assume that this will change in the near future.

I have backed up Dylan as when when he did the fashion show/breakfast in bed was a well thought out idea by him.
Unless he starts thinking with his head instead of his dick he will continue to fumble with Sophia and be seen as this needy desperate kid.
I have nothing personal again him I just wish he would use a different approach.
Ellie is manipulating
Sam is sly and cunning
Zac is cautious unsure
Dylan is a bull in a china shop.
IF/when Dylan changes his approach I will change my attitude.
Calling Dylan the Pygmy is just a bit of fun that some fans don't like.

 

[Alley_Cat]

There are some people here who talk pointless and haters wants Dylan to be completely removed from the story. I suggest you ignore them

Who is arguing that Dylan should be removed from the story? If anything I'm arguing that the Twist allows for a more depth in Dylan's character than just him having the hots for his mother. With the Twist he showed he was not only able to engage with an enemy, which was a problem I had with him pre-Twist, but that when things didn't go as planned, he had the courage to admit he made a mistake. With the Twist I was actually starting to find him to be an interesting character and a shame we'll never see where it would have lead.

As I've said before, Dylan is still a Parker, and I want him to do well. But part of that is making mistakes and learning from them. And while yes, on the boarding school route it severely compromised the relationship between Sophia and Dylan, and stops any chance of Sophia/Dylan, there was and still is no chance of that on the boarding school route anyway.

what Twist was so bad.

This is part of what I don't understand, because to my knowledge L&P stated it had no effect on the plot played by the people that wanted it removed.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

Aiden's exact words were "I don't know, man. That whole thing is so fucked up somehow!"

And as for it not making sense, like Ellie's revelations there are clues throughout the game. Even the dishwasher breaking is suspicious, as it only happens on the Dylan route, and only after Sophia rejects the bikini deal and Dylan's offer to wash the dished, because they have a working dishwasher. That Dylan hasn't done anything yet without wanting something in return is another example. And his shyness results in him making deals like for Sophia to wear bikinis more, instead of Ellie's approach on day 3 of having the confidence to just say she thinks Sophia is hot: "I mean, even though I was little back then, I understood that my mom must be really hot if she got more attention than any other woman around! And you still are!"

The clearest example of Dylan's nature comes from the soccer match. L&P himself calls Dylan's kiss insidious. That Dylan doesn't ask for a kiss on the lips like Ellie does, but does it before Sophia can react. Doesn't apologise either like Emma does.

I'd say that what Ellie's doing could be seen as "insidious" in some way too. Both kids are, in some way, manipulating their mother because of the desires they have for her. With Ellie, it seems more harmless because she's a girl, that there's almost this natural female connection and bond of sisterhood that she's playing on which makes her actions seem less creepy. She also advances things quicker with Sophia because of this, because the fact that this is between 2 women means Sophia has less of a guard up than she would with a man since the general perception would be that men are more unscrupulous and "insidious" in their behaviour.

So it's not necessarily about Ellie having more confidence in her advances towards Sophia, but simply that Sophia feels comfortable with it because she's a girl and she views it less suspiciously.

I think it was a bad idea to remove twist. It gave perfect reason to get rid of Dylan and it only appears on path where you reject his attempts.

But it was still true for the other path even if you didn't see it because you didn't send him to boarding to school. He was still responsible for it and that was the problem.

Whereas for AWAM, we're still arguing over the nature of the bonus storyline. For me it's just about the relationship between Dylan and Ellie, but for Dylan fans it's setting up Dylan/Ellie.

And why not? We know that Ellie and Dylan are going to eventually have a sexual relationship with Sophia, so why not with each other as well? It seems to me that plenty of seeds have been planted for it and the fact that there is this side event where the objective is to bring them closer together seems the most obvious one because in doing so, it's likely to be so that neither would balk at the idea of having sex with each other, particularly Ellie, if their relationship becomes less antagonistic and more friendly/caring.

He'll never be excluded from the game, nor should he be. For those that like his content, there's the Aiden route. And with points in Dylan, even apparently Dylan/Amber on the boarding school route.

What is objectionable though, is for those that have chosen not to play his content to be forced to anyway, as what happened in the Yoga event. Sophia could have left him in the city and picked him up after the yoga class. Would have only taken a few extra renders of Dylan not being in the car and at the entrance to the studio. And those wanting to play the Dylan content could still have done that happily.

Every other character, if you don't have the points or the required flags, you don't get the content, which is as it should be.

I think Dylan being at the yoga event was fine, but we didn't need to see it from his perspective. Instead, it should have all just happened from Sophia's perspective and certain things that happen on the Dylan side, like him joining in and getting teased by Patricia, should have happened here with Sophia catching sight of it and having her both wonder what Patricia is up to and feeling something close to jealousy at seeing her teasing him.

This would have been much better for advancing Sophia and Dylan's relationship.

Why would anyone complain? It would only be on playthrough of people rejecting Dylan and doubt they would complain if he was completely gone.

Again, you just see it on that path but it doesn't mean he wasn't responsible on the other path because he still was.

If the twist had been Ellie making this deal with Aiden and we discovered it when Sophia was spying on Ellie and Julia, I would have wanted the twist removed.

Exactly. If something was revealed about Ellie doing something grossly and secretly manipulative to make Sophia do things with her, I'm sure loads of people would rage about that, but when it comes to Dylan some people seem to either not get it or think it was perfectly fine. Total double standard.

I believe L&P has also said those on the Dylan route but chose the boarding school route are for those who have already chosen to put an end to the Sophia/Dylan path, but that it opens up Amber/Dylan, and that the Twist was to have no effect whatsoever on those on the Sophia/Dylan path that choose to accept Aiden's tasks and that for all intents and purposes Aiden is the sole instigator of the blackmail.

But that's ridiculous, because what's true on one path is also true on the other, so Aiden wasn't the sole instigator and even if you never found out on the non-boarding school path, it was still the truth of how that whole thing got started.

Again, this is why you can't reveal something like this on one path and not the other because then it ruins the non-reveal path. Even if it wasn't going to have any further impact on the story, it inadvertently did by ruining Dylan's character and tainting his progress with Sophia on the non-boarding school path.

Another unintended consequence of the twist is that it lets Aiden off of the hook to some degree. It wasn't even his idea and he was less of a bully.

1000% this. Not only did the twist ruin Dylan's character, it made Aiden out to not be as much of a bastard as he was perceived to be. Sure, he took Dylan's deal and went further with it for his own pleasure, but him making a deal with Dylan made him a weaker villain character because it wasn't him doing it of his own volition.