VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.201] [Lust & Passion]

[Holy Bacchus]

That's what I don't get about the removal of the Twist. If there was a poll and the majority of fans didn't like it, at least L&P could claim he had a mandate to remove it. Even moreso since it would have been more than just Dylan fans that would have complained about it in order to achieve a simple majority. But it appears to be a snap decision made a few days after the release with no time given for even patrons on lower tiers to have played the update.

Well maybe that's the point; they took it out so soon in order to avoid it becoming a bigger deal since it was already proving controversial and could have gotten worse

It was news to me. I never even realized what Dylan had done until Old Dog had mentioned something about him being sent to boarding school if you didn't go along with Aiden and Dylan telling Sophia what he did. I thought it was a nice surprise in the story and didn't think it was that bad as others had made it.

Him being sent to boarding school was never the problem, it's what Dylan revealed about his role in the blackmail that was the problem.

The fact that it was so minor makes the bad decision and favoritism even more blatant. As a minor thing, he could cover it with other events later on or maybe, even better, just wait until all of your fans can give an opinion and just be done with the thing.

I, myself, didn't know about the Twist until reading this thread and asking about it after wards.

Except that it wasn't minor, it was a major shift for both Dylan's character and the whole blackmail plotline. It wasn't malicious from Dylan, sure, but it was a dumb and stupid thing to have him do for something which he could have easily done himself through other more gentle means, means that we already saw him using.

He thought his Mom needed a confidence boost, and his plan was to get the school thug to blackmail her to get her to dress more sexy or else he'd beat up her son? Meanwhile, Dylan's showering her with compliments, opening up to her about his adolescent growing pains, and even making her breakfast in bed. He's doing things that are making her feel better and things that are bringing them closer together, he didn't need Aiden's help for that.

All this fake blackmail thing did was was taint this character for those who didn't want to send him to boarding school because they wanted to keep advancing towards the sexual relationship. For all intents and purposes, it seemed to be going well in spite of this blackmail forcing Sophia to do things for that shit-stain Aiden, but knowing Dylan caused it was a hard pill to swallow and made little sense. It's far easier to accept that Dylan was actually being bullied and Aiden was doing this because he's a prick.

I hear ya, it's a double edge sword. I'm pretty neutral on Dylan, I don't care one way or another, but I thought it was a surprisingly dark twist for the character. The fact that L&P didn't see it as a big deal surprises me because it really contextualizes Dylan.

A completely unnecessary dark turn, hence why it needed to go.

 

[lockerxx]

L&P is taking more days? i am ok with that,

 

[Alley_Cat]

For me it isn't even about the Twist itself anymore, but L&P's response to the reaction. That L&P can so apparently quickly and easily cave into pressure, over something he himself says doesn't even effect the main storyline.

And that my reason for supporting the game, because I enjoy story and character development and choices and not just boobs, which is what I thought the game was about, is under threat because of how quickly L&P will abandon the story he wrote.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

For me it isn't even about the Twist itself anymore, but L&P's response to the reaction. That L&P can so apparently quickly and easily cave into pressure, over something he himself says doesn't even effect the main storyline.

And that my reason for supporting the game, because I enjoy story and character development and choices and not just boobs, which is what I thought the game was about, is under threat because of how quickly L&P will abandon the story he wrote.

His response was the right one. He was on the verge of ruining a main character forever because of a silly, nonsensical, and short-sightedly dangerous decision by said character. But this isn't a slippery slope, as some people seem to be trying to make it out to be. Sometimes devs make objectively bad mistakes, and this is one of those cases, but it doesn't mean they'll change every little thing when some people complain about things they didn't like.

Nothing is "under threat" and I think it's ridiculous to believe that anything is.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

The thing that bothered me most about the twist was that it didn't make any sense from an in-universe perspective. While liberties and suspension of disbelief are expected and accepted, the game is still set in a world where incest is taboo. Dylan knows what he's doing wouldn't be viewed as appropriate by anyone outside of his very deranged circle. I could not reconcile how Dylan could live in a world like this, and still approach a total stranger and suggest that he pressure Sophia to dressing provocatively. Aiden would take one look at Dylan and say "what the hell is wrong with you? Isn't that your mother? Why the hell are you asking me to do that?" And when Dylan responded with some sort of bullshit about wanting his mother to feel more comfortable, Aiden would kick the shit out of him for being a legit pervert. So I just couldn't reconcile that Dylan would put himself and Sophia out on a limb like that.

For me it isn't even about the Twist itself anymore, but L&P's response to the reaction. That L&P can so apparently quickly and easily cave into pressure, over something he himself says doesn't even effect the main storyline.

And that my reason for supporting the game, because I enjoy story and character development and choices and not just boobs, which is what I thought the game was about, is under threat because of how quickly L&P will abandon the story he wrote.

By all means you can enjoy the story, but I don't think we should overestimate L&P's abilities as a writer or storyteller. He's an amateur storyteller, and that's ok, but I don't think we should expect him to put together a flawless story. I say this because I don't want you to lose hope in the game, and a re-calibration of your expectations may help. L&P is going to give you his best, so don't feel like the story is under threat, but don't expect him to create the Citizen Kane of adult games either. At some level he's flying by the seat of his pants, so he's going to respond to Patron feedback when he thinks he needs to. I can imagine that L&P had a really clear, hour by hour, plan for the first 5 playable days, and then had a rough outline for the remainder. As the game has gone on and become very profitable, he's probably gone way beyond whatever he originally planned for and is writing the story as he goes.

 

[Alley_Cat]

The thing that bothered me most about the twist was that it didn't make any sense from an in-universe perspective. While liberties and suspension of disbelief are expected and accepted, the game is still set in a world where incest is taboo. Dylan knows what he's doing wouldn't be viewed as appropriate by anyone outside of his very deranged circle. I could not reconcile how Dylan could live in a world like this, and still approach a total stranger and suggest that he pressure Sophia to dressing provocatively. Aiden would take one look at Dylan and say "what the hell is wrong with you? Isn't that your mother? Why the hell are you asking me to do that?" And when Dylan responded with some sort of bullshit about wanting his mother to feel more comfortable, Aiden would kick the shit out of him for being a legit pervert. So I just couldn't reconcile that Dylan would put himself and Sophia out on a limb like that.



By all means you can enjoy the story, but I don't think we should overestimate L&P's abilities as a writer or storyteller. He's an amateur storyteller, and that's ok, but I don't think we should expect him to put together a flawless story. I say this because I don't want you to lose hope in the game, and a re-calibration of your expectations may help. L&P is going to give you his best, so don't feel like the story is under threat, but don't expect him to create the Citizen Kane of adult games either. At some level he's flying by the seat of his pants, so he's going to respond to Patron feedback when he thinks he needs to. I can imagine that L&P had a really clear, hour by hour, plan for the first 5 playable days, and then had a rough outline for the remainder. As the game has gone on and become very profitable, he's probably gone way beyond whatever he originally planned for and is writing the story as he goes.

Aiden's exact words were "I don't know, man. That whole thing is so fucked up somehow!"

And as for it not making sense, like Ellie's revelations there are clues throughout the game. Even the dishwasher breaking is suspicious, as it only happens on the Dylan route, and only after Sophia rejects the bikini deal and Dylan's offer to wash the dished, because they have a working dishwasher. That Dylan hasn't done anything yet without wanting something in return is another example. And his shyness results in him making deals like for Sophia to wear bikinis more, instead of Ellie's approach on day 3 of having the confidence to just say she thinks Sophia is hot: "I mean, even though I was little back then, I understood that my mom must be really hot if she got more attention than any other woman around! And you still are!"

The clearest example of Dylan's nature comes from the soccer match. L&P himself calls Dylan's kiss insidious. That Dylan doesn't ask for a kiss on the lips like Ellie does, but does it before Sophia can react. Doesn't apologise either like Emma does.

 

[abram1]

His response was the right one. He was on the verge of ruining a main character forever because of a silly, nonsensical, and short-sightedly dangerous decision by said character. But this isn't a slippery slope, as some people seem to be trying to make it out to be. Sometimes devs make objectively bad mistakes, and this is one of those cases, but it doesn't mean they'll change every little thing when some people complain about things they didn't like.

Nothing is "under threat" and I think it's ridiculous to believe that anything is.

The issue itself wasn't removing or keeping "The Twist" intact, but how sloppy it's been presented to the audience. It shoud've been kept in secret up until the later stages of the game and the reveal would've been less shocking to some as we could've observed Dylan's evolution as a character, comprehending his motives step by step.

The more important thing is, who exactly among the patreons was pissed off. What if some supporters with a supposed $100+ monthly donations were not happy after uncovering that sequence?

Anyway, it's L'P's baby, his own vision. From an overall perspective that scene has had miniscule impact on the plot.

I can imagine that L&P had a really clear, hour by hour, plan for the first 5 playable days, and then had a rough outline for the remainder. As the game has gone on and become very profitable, he's probably gone way beyond whatever he originally planned for and is writing the story as he goes.

Here we go again. No need to imagine anything, when there are clear answers. The framework of the game is done, all the storylines are set. He's clearly adding/removing some stuff by the request of those, who paying him, because that's what a businessmen do: they listen and adjust their behavior accordingly. For us it's one of many VN's out there, for him it's a steady source of income and he'll only do the bidding of those, who put food on his table and pay the bills.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

Aiden's exact words were "I don't know, man. That whole thing is so fucked up somehow!"

And as for it not making sense, like Ellie's revelations there are clues throughout the game. Even the dishwasher breaking is suspicious, as it only happens on the Dylan route, and only after Sophia rejects the bikini deal and Dylan's offer to wash the dished, because they have a working dishwasher. That Dylan hasn't done anything yet without wanting something in return is another example. And his shyness results in him making deals like for Sophia to wear bikinis more, instead of Ellie's approach on day 3 of having the confidence to just say she thinks Sophia is hot: "I mean, even though I was little back then, I understood that my mom must be really hot if she got more attention than any other woman around! And you still are!"

The clearest example of Dylan's nature comes from the soccer match. L&P himself calls Dylan's kiss insidious. That Dylan doesn't ask for a kiss on the lips like Ellie does, but does it before Sophia can react. Doesn't apologise either like Emma does.

I'm glad Aiden responds that way, but it doesn't really strike me as a sufficient response.

And I hear what you're saying about Dylan being deceptive in his approach to Sophia; but I guess I look at the Aiden twist as something unique onto itself. It's one thing to creep on Sophia, but it's another to bring in a 3rd party; and then still another to weave such a complicated lie with a 3rd party. That's such a radical escalation of the creep factor that could also expose him and Sophia to major issues. Fooling around in the pool, or the bathroom, in the changing room at the beach, etc are all pretty self contained, and that makes the Aiden twist so extreme.

Maybe it would have been better if we had seen a middle step, something else that included a 3rd party and a public setting. But that would require even more screen time for Dylan.

 

[cakeny]

I'm glad Aiden responds that way, but it doesn't really strike me as a sufficient response.

And I hear what you're saying about Dylan being deceptive in his approach to Sophia; but I guess I look at the Aiden twist as something unique onto itself. It's one thing to creep on Sophia, but it's another to bring in a 3rd party; and then still another to weave such a complicated lie with a 3rd party. That's such a radical escalation of the creep factor that could also expose him and Sophia to major issues. Fooling around in the pool, or the bathroom, in the changing room at the beach, etc are all pretty self contained, and that makes the Aiden twist so extreme.

Maybe it would have been better if we had seen a middle step, something else that included a 3rd party and a public setting. But that would require even more screen time for Dylan.

I think it was a bad idea to remove twist. It gave perfect reason to get rid of Dylan and it only appears on path where you reject his attempts.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

I think it was a bad idea to remove twist. It gave perfect reason to get rid of Dylan and it only appears on path where you reject his attempts.

I mean, you say get rid of him, but he's Liam and Sophia's son- he's always going to be around in some capacity. He won't just walk up the stairs one day and never come back down like the girl from Family Matters.

In case no one gets the reference, look at #3 specifically.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[Alley_Cat]

The issue itself wasn't removing or keeping "The Twist" intact, but how sloppy it's been presented to the audience. It shoud've been kept in secret up until the later stages of the game and the reveal would've been less shocking to some as we could've observed Dylan's evolution as a character, comprehending his motives step by step.

The more important thing is, who exactly among the patreons was pissed off. What if some supporters with a supposed $100+ monthly donations were not happy after uncovering that sequence?

Anyway, it's L'P's baby, his own vision. From an overall perspective that scene has had miniscule impact on the plot.


Here we go again. No need to imagine anything, when there are clear answers. The framework of the game is done, all the storylines are set. He's clearly adding/removing some stuff by the request of those, who paying him, because that's what a businessmen do: they listen and adjust their behavior accordingly. For us it's one of many VN's out there, for him it's a steady source of income and he'll only do the bidding of those, who put food on his table and pay the bills.

If it was his own vision, I could accept it and move on. If there was a vote and removal won I'd be disappointed he didn't stick to his story, but I could accept it and move on. But neither is the case here. All we know is that an unknown number of patrons complained, and a couple of days after release L&P announced he was removing the Twist because of it.

What I'm finding actually kinda funny is that I've been starting to like the game Inertia. It's new, but the dev has outright said from the beginning that he'll develop the plot based on votes. So if the vote from his patrons is for the MC to get gangbanged, he'll work that into the plot somehow. It's unfortunate that he's pimping out the MC, but at least he's honest about it.

Whereas for AWAM, we're still arguing over the nature of the bonus storyline. For me it's just about the relationship between Dylan and Ellie, but for Dylan fans it's setting up Dylan/Ellie.

I'm glad Aiden responds that way, but it doesn't really strike me as a sufficient response.

And I hear what you're saying about Dylan being deceptive in his approach to Sophia; but I guess I look at the Aiden twist as something unique onto itself. It's one thing to creep on Sophia, but it's another to bring in a 3rd party; and then still another to weave such a complicated lie with a 3rd party. That's such a radical escalation of the creep factor that could also expose him and Sophia to major issues. Fooling around in the pool, or the bathroom, in the changing room at the beach, etc are all pretty self contained, and that makes the Aiden twist so extreme.

Maybe it would have been better if we had seen a middle step, something else that included a 3rd party and a public setting. But that would require even more screen time for Dylan.

And extra scene time would've been great, if it meant we saw more character development for Dylan.

 

[cakeny]

I mean, you say get rid of him, but he's Liam and Sophia's son- he's always going to be around in some capacity. He won't just walk up the stairs one day and never come back down like the girl from Family Matters.

In case no one gets the reference, look at #3 specifically.

You must be registered to see the links

He could be shipped off to boarding school permanently, disowned, and never seen from again. His actions were bad enough to warrant such banishment in my view.

 

[abram1]

Whereas for AWAM, we're still arguing over the nature of the bonus storyline.

And L&P stating that Dylan/Sam wont be happening

He could be shipped off to boarding school permanently, disowned, and never seen from again. His actions were bad enough to warrant such banishment in my view.

That could've be been The Twist of all twists, Dylan secretly hooking up with his best bud. But does Zac know about this? Is that what the true male friendship looks like? Stay tuned for the upcoming updates to find out.

Dylan, the most popular character in the game, not counting Sophia, being excluded from the game? The amount of shit that would pour on L&P, if he ever does that, man, I can't wait. This thread would drown in it's own excrements.

 

[Captain Bipto]

That could've be been The Twist of all twists, Dylan secretly hooking up with his best bud. But does Zac know about this? Is that what the true male friendship looks like? Stay tuned for the upcoming updates to find out.

Dylan, the most popular character in the game, not counting Sophia, being excluded from the game? The amount of shit that would pour on L&P, if he ever does that, man, I can't wait. This thread would drown in it's own excrements.

They get rid of Dylan and I'm out of here. Take my money and back something else!!!

 

[Captain Bipto]

They get rid of Dylan and I'm out of here. Take my money and back something else!!!

oh wait, I don't pay for this crap

 

[Alley_Cat]

That could've be been The Twist of all twists, Dylan secretly hooking up with his best bud. But does Zac know about this? Is that what the true male friendship looks like? Stay tuned for the upcoming updates to find out.

Dylan, the most popular character in the game, not counting Sophia, being excluded from the game? The amount of shit that would pour on L&P, if he ever does that, man, I can't wait. This thread would drown in it's own excrements.

He'll never be excluded from the game, nor should he be. For those that like his content, there's the Aiden route. And with points in Dylan, even apparently Dylan/Amber on the boarding school route.

What is objectionable though, is for those that have chosen not to play his content to be forced to anyway, as what happened in the Yoga event. Sophia could have left him in the city and picked him up after the yoga class. Would have only taken a few extra renders of Dylan not being in the car and at the entrance to the studio. And those wanting to play the Dylan content could still have done that happily.

Every other character, if you don't have the points or the required flags, you don't get the content, which is as it should be.

 

[cakeny]

That could've be been The Twist of all twists, Dylan secretly hooking up with his best bud. But does Zac know about this? Is that what the true male friendship looks like? Stay tuned for the upcoming updates to find out.

Dylan, the most popular character in the game, not counting Sophia, being excluded from the game? The amount of shit that would pour on L&P, if he ever does that, man, I can't wait. This thread would drown in it's own excrements.

Why would anyone complain? It would only be on playthrough of people rejecting Dylan and doubt they would complain if he was completely gone.

He'll never be excluded from the game, nor should he be. For those that like his content, there's the Aiden route. And with points in Dylan, even apparently Dylan/Amber on the boarding school route.

What is objectionable though, is for those that have chosen not to play his content to be forced to anyway, as what happened in the Yoga event. Sophia could have left him in the city and picked him up after the yoga class. Would have only taken a few extra renders of Dylan not being in the car and at the entrance to the studio. And those wanting to play the Dylan content could still have done that happily.

Every other character, if you don't have the points or the required flags, you don't get the content, which is as it should be.

If I had choice I would have left him at bus stop. He made his bed, he can lie in it.

 

[Alley_Cat]

Why would anyone complain? It would only be on playthrough of people rejecting Dylan and doubt they would complain if he was completely gone.


If I had choice I would have left him at bus stop. He made his bed, he can lie in it.

As gingersweetgirl points out, he's still a Parker. And it's not like he's kicking puppies and kittens. That's why I suggest the option of leaving him for a few hours to think about and learn from his mistake, then pick him up after the yoga session when it's convenient for Sophia. Or for those on the Dylan/Amber route who choose the boarding school route but still have Dylan points, the choice to pick him up and play as normal

 

[PaxHadrian17]

That's one of the motives why some people snap so much at Dylan and his fuckbois, especially the fuckbois. They can't admit that their favorite character is not perfect, which is normal btw, so they headbash their way into making L&P change the game for them.

Kodek,

I get that you don't like Dylan - that's fine - we each get to choose who we like/dislike.

But... your post comes across as much closer to a rant that I am used to seeing from you.

I like Dylan. I've never said he was perfect. Many of the Dylan fans have not made that claim.

If you can find a post of mine that says otherwise (the entire post versus a piece taken out of context - Kodek, you would not do this but there are some who dislike Dylan who would), please include it in your reply.

I like Dylan, I can empathize with him, and he's not perfect - just like the rest of the Parkers.

Each Parker - Sophia, Ellie, Dylan and Liam - has their imperfections.

So... they are human characters in a story and L&P is trying to create a more realistic, involved story.

The Twist was Flavor - no impact on the story - but still people camp out on this point.

Many of these people are the same ones who choose to have Dylan spy on the ladies during Yoga, say that this makes Dylan immature and unlikeable, and ignore the choice L&P gave each of us at the beginning of the Yoga event - spy or... Don't spy.

If you make an immature choice for Dylan - why would you possibly then use it to say you are justified in saying he is still making bad choices?

Again... check the mirror for the person making the choice.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

Completely removed, yes, including the images and code concerning the Twist from the v0.100 update. Which for something that doesn't even effect the Sophia/Dylan route (it doesn't happen if Sophia is still doing Aiden's tasks), is a bit of overkill.

Alley Cat - this response from you surprised me!

You quote code and individual word choices more than anyone on this forum.

Why would L&P leave in code and imagery that has no place in his creation?

He said he would remove it and he did - basic code house cleaning - nothing more than that.