VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.201] [Lust & Passion]

[ancienregimele]

I think I might have come up with an addition to Patreon that would keep devs on a strict schedule, and potentially make them a lot of money: time-sensitive tips.

-I'm a comic creator who has a patreon
-I tell my patrons "Cyberforce #4 will be out by June 3rd, I promise."
-My page sets June 3rd as the hard release date
-In order to keep me on task/show appreciation/whatever, my patrons would have the option to give me a "tip" amount of their choosing on top of whatever they're already paying
-All that money gets put into a pool
-If I successfully meet that deadline, I get all the accumulated money in that pool
-If I fail to meet that deadline, everyone gets refunded whatever bonus money they paid, and I hang my head in shame

I've been saying for some time that a payment by results (PBR) system is required for a Patreon model no longer fit for purpose. Your scheme would be a relatively trauma-free step in that direction. Monies could be allowed to accumulate towards a bigger bonus day, or bonuses not earned could be given to charity, or reclaimed by patrons. It's a good idea for the incentive side of PBR. Problems arise with PBR, in terms of motivation, if & when any penalty elements come into play.

What you describe would be worth trying on its own, without a penalty clause, to see how it would work in practice, if only Patreon would consider some positive changes from the paying Patron's angle.

 

[yihman1]

I've been saying for some time that a payment by results (PBR) system is required for a Patreon model no longer fit for purpose. Your scheme would be a relatively trauma-free step in that direction. Monies could be allowed to accumulate towards a bigger bonus day, or bonuses not earned could be given to charity, or reclaimed by patrons. It's a good idea for the incentive side of PBR. Problems arise with PBR, in terms of motivation, if & when any penalty elements come into play.

What you describe would be worth trying on its own, without a penalty clause, to see how it would work in practice, if only Patreon would consider some positive changes from the paying Patron's angle.

Right, and devs would just make releases that are much shorter to hit that deadline. Problem solved free money!

It happens in other industries and it is called "

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"

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[ancienregimele]

That could work, but there is a major flaw to it that would make it not work so well...

In order to increase rate you just need to sacrafice "Quality" or "Quantity". Corners will be cut to make deadline if they become so important.

So of course more deadlines would be met, but at the cost of more bugs, and less photoshop time, and fewer renders ect. It will be smaller amount of content of worse quality.

It's idiotic for a developer to give any hard deadline of a release date unless they have at least a beta version of that update in hand, and I will explain why that is.

1) You have no control over real world events that can cause delays. You need surgery? Your power went out for a few days? You need to go to funeral? A pet dies? You have a guest staying from out of town for the weekend? These sorts of things and many more things can cause a delay. You can not predict them or prepare for them and they set you back in time... So, you would need to account for them before hand which most people wouldn't do.

2) If you miss a deadline it is only going to reflect poorly on you. That is a broken promise. Don't over promise and under deliver. It is better to under promise and over deliver.

3) Hitting a deadline like that doesn't make you look any better in comparison to missing it.

4) It's better to have a more relaxed working environment than to be worrying about a deadline. I need it done by the 5th! is a lot more demanding and stressful and less fun than, "Keep working at it get it done when you can." This would ruin things for a lot of devs. No dev wants it that strict.

As a Developer it is still good to set deadlines... INTERNAL DEADLINES! That you don't tell the public at all about. That way if you miss one because "Shit Happens"... At least I didn't break a promise. You work hard on it, and get it done when you can. Do the best you can.

All of what you say is true but Payment By Results is in use in many sectors, (since the 90s, it is in quite widespread use) & after 4 years of playing AWAM, I'm now convinced that properly implemented, it could be a good thing, or at least an improvement on what now exists. Everything you described is the stuff that makes PBR potentially problematic in business & organisational life. Off-the-shelf schemes are around, however, that provide models which could be adapted to Patreon. Alternatively & what's far more likely IMO, is that things just carry on as they are.

It has to be said that the main reason PBR is introduced anywhere, (officially at least), is to increase motivation & ultimately productivity. Given that Patreon is inhabited by individual developers & small teams, many of the problems associated with large complex organisations, which may contain competing departments & teams shouldn't arise, (in theory).

This is currently all academic, or at best, a debate to be had sometime in the future but I'm convinced something needs to change.

 

[ancienregimele]

Right, and devs would just make releases that are much shorter to hit that deadline. Problem solved free money!

It happens in other industries and it is called "

You must be registered to see the links

"

View attachment 1671124

That's why very specific parameters have to be set from the beginning & agreed by all concerned. [In RL this just means the boss telling subordinates how it's going to be & calling that consultation...impossible in Patreon]. Everyone who's ever worked knows the "under-promising, over-delivering" ploy. It's a question of how much of it is acceptable & if productivity & motivation don't improve, it becomes time to vary the playbook or to try something else.

Speaking personally, shorter releases which hit the deadline sounds pretty good. Dividing a playable day by 10 was supposed to deliver shorter releases in a timely fashion but here we are, for whatever reason(s), wondering, if after 3 months it will happen in another week, weeks, or a month. PBR is meant to reward effort but if such a scheme failed in this objective, along with no increase in productivity or delivery, so be it. It would be a "back to the drawing board" moment. It wouldn't signal that change, in some form, was not required.

 

[yihman1]

All of what you say is true but Payment By Results is in use in many sectors, (since the 90s, it is in quite widespread use) & after 4 years of playing AWAM, I'm now convinced that properly implemented, it could be a good thing, or at least an improvement on what now exists. Everything you described is the stuff that makes PBR potentially problematic in business & organisational life. Off-the-shelf schemes are around, however, that provide models which could be adapted to Patreon. Alternatively & what's far more likely IMO, is that things just carry on as they are.

It has to be said that the main reason PBR is introduced anywhere, (officially at least), is to increase motivation & ultimately productivity. Given that Patreon is inhabited by individual developers & small teams, many of the problems associated with large complex organisations, which may contain competing departments & teams shouldn't arise, (in theory).

This is currently all academic, or at best, a debate to be had sometime in the future but I'm convinced something needs to change.

The only person that can make L&P work faster is L&P. It is up to him to make any sort of decisions that could increase rate of production such as hiring writer / artist to team up.

 

[jamdan]

Patreon isn't going to do anything, and even if they wanted to, they couldn't. Subscribestar isn't going to do anything either. The simple facts are developers will release their games whenever they want to release their games.

I understand the frustration of slow development. I have that too. But trying to implement professional standards on solo amateur hobbyists isn't going to work. Patreon aren't their bosses or employers, they have no way to verify or force developers to do more work or do it more professionally.

People vastly overstate how much influence Patreon actually have. They don't even review games until they get reported, they definitely aren't going to independently verify whether or not devs are working on their stuff or impose deadlines on them. Again, they're the middleman, not their boss.

Patreon is more likely to ban adult content all together than to set up a verification of work process to force developers to develop things in a timely fashion.

 

[Deleted member 3516371]

100% 100% 100% 100% and ?% for the already legendary extra thing... the most useless progress tracker in history.

What is your freaking problem

 

[ancienregimele]

The only person that can make L&P work faster is L&P. It is up to him to make any sort of decisions that could increase rate of production such as hiring writer / artist to team up.

This, as we've seen, time & again, is not likely. How he chooses to work is up to him, of course & as his own boss, so it should be. Patrons choose, again quite rightly, to subsidise his chosen work method, or at least to sponsor it. So far, so good. "Take it, or leave it" is the phrase which comes to mind & we do, whether Patron or pirate.

L&P won't change, except in one respect. What makes me think of PBR is the fact that the Dev has found numerous ways of slowing things down & this has developed some momentum, which means that delivery of the product, i.e. a finished game/VN, has become a very distant prospect. Any organisation observing such a pattern would take action, no doubt describing it as "positive," in order to find a mutually acceptable workable solution.

As the Patrons appear to have a rock solid core who opt not to vote with their wallets, change to the way Patreon operates becomes a subject for consideration.

 

[yihman1]

This, as we've seen, time & again, is not likely. How he chooses to work is up to him, of course & as his own boss, so it should be. Patrons choose, again quite rightly, to subsidise his chosen work method, or at least to sponsor it. So far, so good. "Take it, or leave it" is the phrase which comes to mind & we do, whether Patron or pirate.

L&P won't change, except in one respect. What makes me think of PBR is the fact that the Dev has found numerous ways of slowing things down & this has developed some momentum, which means that delivery of the product, i.e. a finished game/VN, has become a very distant prospect. Any organisation observing such a pattern would take action, no doubt describing it as "positive," in order to find a mutually acceptable workable solution.

As the Patrons appear to have a rock solid core who opt not to vote with their wallets, change to the way Patreon operates becomes a subject for consideration.

Pirates don't really have much sway with L&P. Most of the folks complaining are getting it for free. What are the pirates gonna do? Pay him $0 instead of their previous $0?

 

[Hooah]

Pirates don't really have much sway with L&P. Most of the folks complaining are getting it for free. What are the pirates gonna do? Pay him $0 instead of their previous $0?

It is an interesting ecosystem here, truthfully. Pirates, as you say, don't have much sway with the developers on here. And why should they? I don't think I've seen a single game have its subscriber base collapse due to anything less than total abandonment by the developer. Even as adult games have begun to blossom into a proper subgenre with mainstream presence, standbys from the pre-COVID days are still plugging along.

At the same time, I do think pirates CAN help a game. After all, there's a reason the developers themselves will often put a game on here, advertise it, and actively engage with the community. It's like why free-to-play games are very profitable-yes, most people won't pay a dime, but you'll have a MUCH larger player-base and thus more overall cash from the % who do pay.

I am not really sure why this game in particular arouses such passion, though. People get PISSED.

 

[ancienregimele]

Patreon isn't going to do anything, and even if they wanted to, they couldn't. Subscribestar isn't going to do anything either. The simple facts are developers will release their games whenever they want to release their games.

I understand the frustration of slow development. I have that too. But trying to implement professional standards on solo amateur hobbyists isn't going to work. Patreon aren't their bosses or employers, they have no way to verify or force developers to do more work or do it more professionally.

People vastly overstate how much influence Patreon actually have. They don't even review games until they get reported, they definitely aren't going to independently verify whether or not devs are working on their stuff or impose deadlines on them. Again, they're the middleman, not their boss.

Patreon is more likely to ban adult content all together than to set up a verification of work process to force developers to develop things in a timely fashion.

What you say is largely correct but in this situation Patreon would act as a facilitator, not an enforcer, e.g. the possibility of bonus payments for on time work of acceptable quality would have to be agreed between Devs & their Patrons. There is more carrot than stick in this scenario, e.g. rules could be flexible enough to adjust to any unforseen circumstances.

If Patreon created the framework for a version of PBR & Devs chose not to avail themselves of it, Patrons might draw their own conclusions but ultimately things would carry on as they are now. If Devs decided that they would use the scheme, they would at least perhaps feel the need to provide more detailed, plausible reasons why a deadline wouldn't be met.

PBR can be complex, which is why management consultants have it in their arsenal of stuff which makes them a good living but it's undeniable that it can be & is successfully implemented in a variety of settings.

 

[ancienregimele]

Pirates don't really have much sway with L&P. Most of the folks complaining are getting it for free. What are the pirates gonna do? Pay him $0 instead of their previous $0?

Yes, that's what I intend! I used to have to produce stuff for a living, of the right quality & on time. No excuses, no quibbling, no prevarication, no dissembling. I have some empathy with those who strive for perfection, despite everything but a game/VN due to end in the 2050s is not tenable. AWAM needs something......

I've also produced stuff on commission & one time I failed but that's another off-topic story.

 

[yihman1]

It is an interesting ecosystem here, truthfully. Pirates, as you say, don't have much sway with the developers on here. And why should they? I don't think I've seen a single game have its subscriber base collapse due to anything less than total abandonment by the developer. Even as adult games have begun to blossom into a proper subgenre with mainstream presence, standbys from the pre-COVID days are still plugging along.

At the same time, I do think pirates CAN help a game. After all, there's a reason the developers themselves will often put a game on here, advertise it, and actively engage with the community. It's like why free-to-play games are very profitable-yes, most people won't pay a dime, but you'll have a MUCH larger player-base and thus more overall cash from the % who do pay.

I am not really sure why this game in particular arouses such passion, though. People get PISSED.

Well, it really depends on the developer.

Using myself as an example... I work as a writer on adult games.

I am a pirate too, and a forum whore. I have pirated more games than most of the folks on here, and probably by a lot.

I don't mind talking to the people. It's a hobby of mine. I actually enjoy it. As a writer I get a lot more free time from development than the render guys... So I can chat with the people a lot of the time.

Many Devs lurk... I bet L&P is lurking around here and will read it up later if he isn't here now. I bet he will be here after the release gets here! I have caught him lurking before dropping a line in private.

Some pirates can give valuable feedback. At the same time many pirates don't know the industry very well, or are just entitled and demanding or a troll.

For many devs English isn't their first language. They are not forum whores. They are not big pirates. So they often feel a bit like an "Outsider" here. Even though this place is a lot more friendly compared to fapnation...

 

[yihman1]

 

[Xyzwvu]

Quick question. If the game will have an inbuilt update button from 0.155 or 0.160, that will be for patreons to access easily. How will the people on f95 be able to access it? Will we have to download the whole game over and over or somehow we will get access to the actual game with the update button. And even after we get access, the new event updates will mostly go to patreons right? Please explain if anyone can..

 

[yihman1]

Quick question. If the game will have an inbuilt update button from 0.155 or 0.160, that will be for patreons to access easily. How will the people on f95 be able to access it? Will we have to download the whole game over and over or somehow we will get access to the actual game with the update button. And even after we get access, the new event updates will mostly go to patreons right? Please explain if anyone can..

The update button will almost surely not work on a pirated version.

 

[Rokohn]

What if Morello was the ex-husband of Ava Myers?

now that's the twist that I want haha. Not that nonsense thing like Dylan's thing

 

[Xyzwvu]

The update button will almost surely not work on a pirated version.

So all people here will have to download the entire game over and over again you say?

 

[FullyAnimated]

So all people here will have to download the entire game over and over again you say?

Not the entire game - just the entire chapter 2 every time there is an update. The first release of chapter 2 will be a separate game from chapter 1. Over time, Chapter 2 will probably get as big - if not bigger - as Chapter 1 has become.

 

[CSK92]

ICSTOR wasn't a milker, he was a straight up con artist. I think it's really important to note the distinction. As frustrated as we are with L&P, ICSTOR is in a league of his own and deserves a special level of disdain.

I have my Theory on this Patron site with these games from Gumdrop and ISOTOR, plus L&P now.
Parents. quit giving your kids credit cards.