VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.211] [Lust & Passion]

[Alley_Cat]

Of course there is a plot. The game is not called "A wife and mother" for nothing. You're right about Sophia's corruption, though. It is certainly extremely important for the game.



Yes, Besides Sophia, Dylan and Ellie are also essential to the plot. I think that L&P has emphasized Dylan a bit more because he is the best contrast to Sophia in the family, since he belongs to a different gender and a different generation. He also has the highest motivation of all in the family to push Sophia's corrumtion forward.





I never understood the story with Emma. She doesn't really add anything to the main plot with either Sophia, Ellie or Dylan. However, I think the idea of not giving Ellie and Dylan their own LI is wrong. It is important for Dylan that Sophia sees that he is failing at the beginning and need some support. The whole thing plays into the importance of breathing life into the characters close to Sophia. It is also important for Ellie to have some LI, because only then it becomes clear that she is in a stronger role. If Dylan and Ellie seem too passive, then the whole game would seem implausible.




I think L&P simply underestimated the effort, but is reluctant to give his project the cuts necessary. In my opinion, the only important thing is not to cut corners on the main story. The story about Sophia as "a wife and mother" should be told. Ellie and Dylan are needed for this.

"He also has the highest motivation of all in the family to push Sophia's corrumtion forward." Do you even play the Ellie or Patricia routes? Patricia has been trying to get under Sophia's skirt likely since she was 14.

More importantly, Patricia has the capability to move Sophia's corruption forward. No one else in the game knows how to press Sophia's buttons. It's Patricia that properly kickstarts the Ellie route at the Nightclub. It's Patricia that gets Sophia naked at the Yoga event, allowing Dylan to see his first actual pussy. It's Patricia that tells Sophia about Carl's "no dick in the pussy rule" that allows the recent Sam event.

 

[XaGnard]

This paragraph right here. Everyone: me, Alley_Cat, Jamdan, Talcum Powder, and others; that is the discussion that we've been having, and we're seemingly all in agreement that taking focus away from Sophia and switching to other characters is taking away from Sophia's story as "A Wife and Mother"

Jamdan is right, the nucleus of the story should be Sophia and any adventure that she undertakes, her influence on Ellie / Dylan, and then Liam. Although I would argue Patricia should also be tied with Liam, and perhaps in some cases come before Liam. Simply because as they're written now, Patricia has more influence on Sophia's growth than Liam does.

The question is, what is the motivation behind the rejection of Dylan content?

Is it really about the story being told in the best possible way, or is it just that some don't like Dylan as a character in the game? I have now given many examples of why Dylan's perspective is sometimes just the best way to tell the story, because it gives the player information needed to understand but Sophia should not know about at the moment (best example Dylan and Amber in the Pool with Sophia and Sam). No one here has even begun to explain how this story could have been told without Dylan's perspective. Can you?

"He also has the highest motivation of all in the family to push Sophia's corrumtion forward." Do you even play the Ellie or Patricia routes? Patricia has been trying to get under Sophia's skirt likely since she was 14.

More importantly, Patricia has the capability to move Sophia's corruption forward. No one else in the game knows how to press Sophia's buttons. It's Patricia that properly kickstarts the Ellie route at the Nightclub. It's Patricia that gets Sophia naked at the Yoga event, allowing Dylan to see his first actual pussy. It's Patricia that tells Sophia about Carl's "no dick in the pussy rule" that allows the recent Sam event.

I never said anything against them. On the contrary, I think the story works well here. I especially like all the entanglements that arise from it.

Still, I think Dylan's motivation is the greatest of the three.

 

[Radoslaw Wolf]

"He also has the highest motivation of all in the family to push Sophia's corrumtion forward." Do you even play the Ellie or Patricia routes? Patricia has been trying to get under Sophia's skirt likely since she was 14.

More importantly, Patricia has the capability to move Sophia's corruption forward. No one else in the game knows how to press Sophia's buttons. It's Patricia that properly kickstarts the Ellie route at the Nightclub. It's Patricia that gets Sophia naked at the Yoga event, allowing Dylan to see his first actual pussy. It's Patricia that tells Sophia about Carl's "no dick in the pussy rule" that allows the recent Sam event.

Patricia the catalyst

 

[Alley_Cat]

The question is, what is the motivation behind the rejection of Dylan content?

Is it really about the story being told in the best possible way, or is it just that some don't like Dylan as a character in the game? I have now given many examples of why Dylan's perspective is sometimes just the best way to tell the story, because it gives the player information needed to understand but Sophia should not know about at the moment (best example Dylan and Amber in the Pool with Sophia and Sam). No one here has even begun to explain how this story could have been told without Dylan's perspective. Can you?




I never said anything against them. On the contrary, I think the story works well here. I especially like all the entanglements that arise from it.

Still, I think Dylan's motivation is the greatest of the three.

"The question is, what is the motivation behind the rejection of Dylan content?" The question is why bother with the Dylan option? If you look at things from Sophia's POV - she is the protagonist after all, the first Dylan option is the uncomfortable (plus dangerous and illegal) one. She can easily wait a little while longer for Carl's driver and arrive in comfort.

Same goes for accepting Aiden's tasks as required for the Dylan route: either wait and go through the legal process, or accept the tasks and risk everything.

As opposed to the start of the Ellie route: the first option there is simply to accept a compliment. It's not even a choice between Filthy and GW. So it's easy for Sophia to become invested. 30-odd Ellie points in, and Sophia still hasn't done anything particularly risky.

With Patricia it's the same. If anything untoward were to happen, Carl would step in. Even if following the Patricia route ends up with Liam kicking Sophia out of the house, the worse that will happen is Sophia (possibly with Dylan and Ellie) moves into a bigger house.

 

[Jozef Minge]

"He also has the highest motivation of all in the family to push Sophia's corrumtion forward." Do you even play the Ellie or Patricia routes? Patricia has been trying to get under Sophia's skirt likely since she was 14.

More importantly, Patricia has the capability to move Sophia's corruption forward. No one else in the game knows how to press Sophia's buttons. It's Patricia that properly kickstarts the Ellie route at the Nightclub. It's Patricia that gets Sophia naked at the Yoga event, allowing Dylan to see his first actual pussy. It's Patricia that tells Sophia about Carl's "no dick in the pussy rule" that allows the recent Sam event.

I am totally agreed with you - there are two ways to corrupt woman. First is the easy one - her open mind friend. The women talk about everything all the time, they are share everything. They influence each other.
The second one is a person with whom she is very much in love. And she is ready to give him everything.

 

[hzjujk]

First of all - L&P, as an individual, took on way too big a task to finish this story as a game.
And to criticize this (the size) here in the forum is justified, because it is to be feared that the volume of work is not to be created by L&P and the consumers (paying and not paying) will never see the end of the story.
I'm talking about consumers here on purpose, not critics or editors of a book publisher.
Because if I wanted to tell a story and one of the many consumers told me, leave out this or that, then you can finish your story faster, he would only get to hear a "Fuck you" from me.
There are many examples at f95zone of how consumers have influenced a developer and changed their story. And the developer then at some point turned everything back to the beginning because he no longer told what he originally wanted (examples: FreePass, TAC, Dead Moon Survival, ...). Had completely alienated himself from his own story, his game.
So for me, the stupidest thing a game developer can do is to let the content of his story be changed by his consumer. I'm happy to be crucified for this opinion.
There are writers who are able to introduce a new figure/character into a story with just a few lines (half a page) and describe him in such a way that he looks like a real figure to the reader. As a rule, however, a story and its characters gain depth by having them take many small side paths so that not only the main character has a solid background but also the "side characters" seem more believable. I personally like that, also because I make my decisions in the game dependent on it.
Now, I also realize that in the worst case this is just a porn game and not a Nobel Prize level writing achievement. And that's why I'm going to spare myself from having an argumentative exchange with those who desperately masturbate to this game and whose paper handkerchief is still dry. Because this story should at best be that too - a porn game.

 

[hzjujk]

Lesbian sucks and waste of time

Oh, you just made a lot of enemies.

 

[rAmSiMaL]

Lesbian sucks and waste of time

Unfortunately lesbian doesn’t suck at all until now… this is the problem

 

[XaGnard]

"The question is, what is the motivation behind the rejection of Dylan content?" The question is why bother with the Dylan option? If you look at things from Sophia's POV - she is the protagonist after all, the first Dylan option is the uncomfortable (plus dangerous and illegal) one. She can easily wait a little while longer for Carl's driver and arrive in comfort.

Same goes for accepting Aiden's tasks as required for the Dylan route: either wait and go through the legal process, or accept the tasks and risk everything.

As opposed to the start of the Ellie route: the first option there is simply to accept a compliment. It's not even a choice between Filthy and GW. So it's easy for Sophia to become invested. 30-odd Ellie points in, and Sophia still hasn't done anything particularly risky.

With Patricia it's the same. If anything untoward were to happen, Carl would step in. Even if following the Patricia route ends up with Liam kicking Sophia out of the house, the worse that will happen is Sophia (possibly with Dylan and Ellie) moves into a bigger house.

I don't understand what is so hard for you to realize that this is not just about Sophia, but about Sophia in her role as wife and mother. The events around Patrica are so good mainly because they are also connected to Ellie, Dylan and Liam as part for the main story.

This same idea goes for the Blackmail stories. Aiden, like Sam, only work because they have an impact on Dylan's story. Without Dylan, both are kind of useless.

 

[Злой гений]

A new way. Neil saw women's underwear in Sam"s room. I went out into the yard, climbed a tree and took a picture of Sofia naked. Now you can blackmail Sofia with this photo.

 

[Blurpee69]

The question is, what is the motivation behind the rejection of Dylan content?

Is it really about the story being told in the best possible way, or is it just that some don't like Dylan as a character in the game? I have now given many examples of why Dylan's perspective is sometimes just the best way to tell the story, because it gives the player information needed to understand but Sophia should not know about at the moment (best example Dylan and Amber in the Pool with Sophia and Sam). No one here has even begun to explain how this story could have been told without Dylan's perspective. Can you?

We've been having this discussion for like 10 pages now. If you haven't picked up that all my suggestions have been to keep the story focused on Sophia and her role as A WIFE AND MOTHER then I don't know what to say at this point. There are ways to do that, that do not include constantly cutting away to Dylan, or Ellie, or Liam as I have also given an example of. It keeps the story tight and focused, and more importantly moving forward.

 

[tofhdns]

Dylan-Emma, Dylan-Marie, Dylan-Christine.

These stories are just started and there are scenes that are independent and There is completely separate story that delays Sophia's scenes.

In the last update, Sophia's only story changed her hairstyle at the hair shop.

If the developer updates every month and makes Sophia appear the more, and advances the story, there won't be any problem.

Because it's not like that, if they continue to focus on a separate Dylan story, Sofia's story is bound to be delayed.

 

[Alley_Cat]

I don't understand what is so hard for you to realize that this is not just about Sophia, but about Sophia in her role as wife and mother. The events around Patrica are so good mainly because they are also connected to Ellie, Dylan and Liam as part for the main story.

This same idea goes for the Blackmail stories. Aiden, like Sam, only work because they have an impact on Dylan's story. Without Dylan, both are kind of useless.

Well can you give an example of what you're trying to say that isn't basically that you're only interested in more Dylan content?

 

[XaGnard]

We've been having this discussion for like 10 pages now. If you haven't picked up that all my suggestions have been to keep the story focused on Sophia and her role as A WIFE AND MOTHER then I don't know what to say at this point. There are ways to do that, that do not include constantly cutting away to Dylan, or Ellie, or Liam as I have also given an example of. It keeps the story tight and focused, and more importantly moving forward.

Just because there's a way to do something, doesn't mean that this way it's automatically any good. So far, for example, no one here has been able to give an usefull alternative to L&P take on the pool event with Sophia/Dylan/Amber/Sam, where Dylan's perspective works perfect. The point is to tell a story and not to enforce a PoV only from Sophia.

It's becoming more and more clear to me that, at least for some in this discussion, the quality of the story itself doesn't seem to matter at all, but only the avoidance of Dylan as a character in the game. I think that's silly, because the story is about Sophia in her role as wife and mother. Therefore, it makes sense to learn more about the husband and the children. Especially if the events now or later have an impact on Sophia directly. The Dylan/Amber events or the Dylan/Ellie events are just an example of why it is usefull to give the player more knowlege than Sophia.

Well can you give an example of what you're trying to say that isn't basically that you're only interested in more Dylan content?

Well, look at all the posts where I explained how important Ellie, Sam, Patricia etc. are. If there is anything I think should be cut from the game it is poorly written events or the unnecessary side stories (like the side jobs), as they don't really advance the plot of the main story in the game.

 

[Злой гений]

Sofia is the main character. And everyone starts corrupting her. She already likes to show her naked body, from which she gets excited. The next stage is from Aiden. Most likely, he will invite her back to the art school, where Sofia will completely undress in front of the students. And when Sofia is corrupted, there will be a tack from Aiden to appear in the school without panties.

 

[Alley_Cat]

Just because there's a way to do something, doesn't mean that this way it's automatically any good. So far, for example, no one here has been able to give an usefull alternative to L&P take on the pool event with Sophia/Dylan/Amber/Sam, where Dylan's perspective works perfect. The point is to tell a story and not to enforce a PoV only from Sophia.

It's becoming more and more clear to me that, at least for some in this discussion, the quality of the story itself doesn't seem to matter at all, but only the avoidance of Dylan as a character in the game. I think that's silly, because the story is about Sophia in her role as wife and mother. Therefore, it makes sense to learn more about the husband and the children. Especially if the events now or later have an impact on Sophia directly. The Dylan/Amber events or the Dylan/Ellie events are just an example of why it is usefull to give the player more knowlege than Sophia.

Except that the examples you give: Dylan/Amber, Dylan/Ellie, don't impact Sophia directly at all. Can you name a single instance of say Sophia gaining a Filthy point in these events? A Dylan or Ellie point? Any relevance at all to the Sophia/Dylan or Sophia/Ellie routes? That's why they can and should be at the very least delayed until the main Sophia storyline can be completed in a reasonable timeframe. Not going to happen, but that's not the point.

It's also not in the slightest about avoiding Dylan as a character. If there were Ellie storylines that didn't involve Sophia, I'd be arguing just as strongly against them.

 

[Blurpee69]

None of us are complaining about the Sophia/Dylan/Amber/Sam pool scene, because it involved Sophia. I'm not saying we can't have little snippets of story from another characters perspective, in fact quite a few times I've encouraged it. I just want it to spread around further amongst all of the family members if that's the case. Right now it is assymetrically in favor of Dylan, he is the easiest to pick on at the moment because he's received so much favor for the last two years. Perhaps once we move past these couple of playable days that focus on Dylan, and Ellie becomes the focus again you'll hear the same complaints only Ellie will be the target. The problem again isn't Dylan specifically, it's that so much time is being dedicated to these side events that the story is at a stand still while we wait for them to playout.

I quite enjoyed the short little scene with Ellie / Christine / Dylan in front of the house after Sophia confronts them about finding a cigarette butt. No one is complaining about the short little scene from Liam's perspective at the bridal gown showing. The emphasis in both these cases though is that they're short. They're not an entire update away from Sophia's perspective, like this most recent one.

What did we get from this most recent update, that focused almost solely on Dylan that we couldn't get out of these three lines that either Sophia or Claire could make when Marie and Dylan came back to the salon? "How was your date you two?" "You didn't do anything inappropriate with my daughter did you?" "You two are so cute together." The factors at play, that could determine Dylan and Marie's reaction: how much encouragement Sophia has provided Dylan as far as branching out and trying things with girls, if Sophia has spoken at all about Dylan to Marie in the locker room / yoga scenes, if Sophia has shown any sort of interest in Claire or Marie in those same scenes, and how much encouragement Sophia has given Dylan to try for Marie in either salon scene. Dylan and Marie can react embarrased, nonchalant, proud, dismissive, whatever emotion that the reflect the kind of influence Sophia has had on their lives.

I don't want to rewrite L&P's story, I'm just giving an example of how hundreds of lines of dialogue, three full scenes and all of the rendering times for those scenes, can be condensed down to about 30-50 lines of dialogue which would allow for more time to move the story along.

 

[XaGnard]

Except that the examples you give: Dylan/Amber, Dylan/Ellie, don't impact Sophia directly at all. Can you name a single instance of say Sophia gaining a Filthy point in these events? A Dylan or Ellie point? Any relevance at all to the Sophia/Dylan or Sophia/Ellie routes? That's why they can and should be at the very least delayed until the main Sophia storyline can be completed in a reasonable timeframe. Not going to happen, but that's not the point.

It's also not in the slightest about avoiding Dylan as a character. If there were Ellie storylines that didn't involve Sophia, I'd be arguing just as strongly against them.

I can't see into the future, but I think it's clear to everyone here that e.g. sex between Dylan and Ellie, for example, will affect Sophia story in an at least non-negligible way. The same applies, for example, to Sophia finding out about Dylan and Amber.

Once again, it makes no sense to limit everything to direct actions by Sophia. It is typical for story telling to change the perspective sometimes. Especially when the story is supposed to reveal a secret that is still unknown to the MC. As I said, the Dylan and Amber event is the perfect example. The event is simply much more exciting when the player knows what's going on, and is only possible because Sophia doesn't know yet. Nevertheless, you should be aware that this will most likely have an impact on Sophia some day. It already starts when she notices that Dylan and Amber get along surprisingly well. The symmetry of Dylan/Amber and Sam/Sophia alone makes this story worth continuing.

 

[Alley_Cat]

None of us are complaining about the Sophia/Dylan/Amber/Sam pool scene, because it involved Sophia. I'm not saying we can't have little snippets of story from another characters perspective, in fact quite a few times I've encouraged it. I just want it to spread around further amongst all of the family members if that's the case. Right now it is assymetrically in favor of Dylan, he is the easiest to pick on at the moment because he's received so much favor for the last two years. Perhaps once we move past these couple of playable days that focus on Dylan, and Ellie becomes the focus again you'll hear the same complaints only Ellie will be the target. The problem again isn't Dylan specifically, it's that so much time is being dedicated to these side events that the story is at a stand still while we wait for them to playout.

I quite enjoyed the short little scene with Ellie / Christine / Dylan in front of the house after Sophia confronts them about finding a cigarette butt. No one is complaining about the short little scene from Liam's perspective at the bridal gown showing. The emphasis in both these cases though is that they're short. They're not an entire update away from Sophia's perspective, like this most recent one.

What did we get from this most recent update, that focused almost solely on Dylan that we couldn't get out of these three lines that either Sophia or Claire could make when Marie and Dylan came back to the salon? "How was your date you two?" "You didn't do anything inappropriate with my daughter did you?" "You two are so cute together." The factors at play, that could determine Dylan and Marie's reaction: how much encouragement Sophia has provided Dylan as far as branching out and trying things with girls, if Sophia has spoken at all about Dylan to Marie in the locker room / yoga scenes, if Sophia has shown any sort of interest in Claire or Marie in those same scenes, and how much encouragement Sophia has given Dylan to try for Marie in either salon scene. Dylan and Marie can react embarrased, nonchalant, proud, dismissive, whatever emotion that the reflect the kind of influence Sophia has had on their lives.

I don't want to rewrite L&P's story, I'm just giving an example of how hundreds of lines of dialogue, three full scenes and all of the rendering times for those scenes, can be condensed down to about 30-50 lines of dialogue which would allow for more time to move the story along.

Not entirely true. I've been complaining about all the Dylan content that isn't directly tied to the Sophia/Dylan storyline. So not directly the pool event, does include it.

 

[PietruccioTheHilander]

after all this talk...
+0% today