Ren'Py Abandoned Apartment #69 [v0.07] [Luxee]

[Rutonat]

We experience the same thing in pretty much every game with NTR content. The threats to this are also haunted aggressively by people who hate this fetish (although most of them don't even know what NTR really is). Always with the ulterior motive that the developer could change his plans if there were only enough complaints.

I'm gonna be honest, I've yet to see devs get openly and publicly threatened, shammed and harassed about having NTR n their games like they get when they put trans people in.
I did, however, see quite a few of the NTR loving crowd post only to ask "when are you adding NTR", and then angry when they get answered that it's not happening. I remember even seeing a few shit on the dev for "being coward" and "making a shit vanilla game"...

Then again, I might simply have not come across the right threads, but I feel like the comparaison choice is strange... Especially with the fact there is a lot of transphobia even outside of these forums than there is... how do I even call it... Angst from people who don't see others get NTRed ?

I'm all for the idea that some content type breed unhinged idiots, both on the side of for and against them, but I feel like some cases are way less either numerous or vocal.
That sentence probably came wrong because I don't know how to phrase it right... Basically I feel like, while there are defnitely lovers and haters or any content type, I don't think they are all equal in how forceful they are. For example, there are lovers and haters of anal sex, but you don't see people going apeshit about a game not having anal. Like, there are some groups that seem to just have the maturity to say "Well, if this game has/doesn't have this type of content, it's not for me" and that's it.
Very few tags actually bring so much fire and brimstone of people literally wanting games/devs to be shut down because they don't personally like it...

 

[Hermit76]

As long as contents like NTR or trans are optional, I don't mind. I just find it very strange, if some fans of those contents want to force them into a game so that they become a mandatory content.
Regarding this game I have to admit that I did not know before starting to play it, that there would be a trans main person. But since I was able to ignore it completely, I did not mind. I had not even realised what happend to it, before I read it here.

 

[Fenix Wulfheart]

I wish there was a more middle ground result between loving Nea and turning her content off. I tried the friend route up until a certain incident, and there were all these intrusive MC 'thoughts' about finding her cute and attractive in various ways, and then if you want to pursue remaining friends without romance after that incident it appears the route dies. It just says "oh...I forgot" for future Nea events as far as I can tell. I want to like Nea and support Nea, without romance and kissing, and also preferably without making it political. Same way I interact with the trans people I know in real life, you know? They are just another type of person.

Good game though.

 

[Fenix Wulfheart]

I'm gonna be honest, I've yet to see devs get openly and publicly threatened, shammed and harassed about having NTR n their games like they get when they put trans people in.
I did, however, see quite a few of the NTR loving crowd post only to ask "when are you adding NTR", and then angry when they get answered that it's not happening. I remember even seeing a few shit on the dev for "being coward" and "making a shit vanilla game"...

Then again, I might simply have not come across the right threads, but I feel like the comparaison choice is strange... Especially with the fact there is a lot of transphobia even outside of these forums than there is... how do I even call it... Angst from people who don't see others get NTRed ?

I'm all for the idea that some content type breed unhinged idiots, both on the side of for and against them, but I feel like some cases are way less either numerous or vocal.
That sentence probably came wrong because I don't know how to phrase it right... Basically I feel like, while there are defnitely lovers and haters or any content type, I don't think they are all equal in how forceful they are. For example, there are lovers and haters of anal sex, but you don't see people going apeshit about a game not having anal. Like, there are some groups that seem to just have the maturity to say "Well, if this game has/doesn't have this type of content, it's not for me" and that's it.
Very few tags actually bring so much fire and brimstone of people literally wanting games/devs to be shut down because they don't personally like it...

I think the reason NTR and trap content is so divisive is because it speaks to honesty and trust. People want to feel like they can trust the character they are seeking to romance. Indeed, I think perhaps there should be a label for content that builds specifically on trust like this, that uses some of the same trappings as NTR but then subverts them as characters reject engaging in NTR. As for traps, I find it is far less divisive when it is upfront and obvious. When the character doesn't try to hide what they are. But it still remains divisive, because their appearance alone is kinda-sorta "dishonest" in the way that those seeking to avoid such dishonesty are seeing. I guess a better way to put it than honest and dishonest is "real" and "illusory"? Like, the trap confuses some people's brains by being attractive but also being unattractive in different ways at the same time, such that they are kinda-sorta an illusion insofar as the brain is receiving it? I dunno, I think there is some sort of mechanism in the brain that makes both NTR and traps divisive for some of the same reasons, and I suspect that a great many of the people who object vociferously to both are the same people.

I wonder if anyone has ever taken the time to try to verify any of that.

 

[Rutonat]

As for traps, I find it is far less divisive when it is upfront and obvious. When the character doesn't try to hide what they are. But it still remains divisive, because their appearance alone is kinda-sorta "dishonest" in the way that those seeking to avoid such dishonesty are seeing. I guess a better way to put it than honest and dishonest is "real" and "illusory"? Like, the trap confuses some people's brains by being attractive but also being unattractive in different ways at the same time, such that they are kinda-sorta an illusion insofar as the brain is receiving it? I dunno, I think there is some sort of mechanism in the brain that makes both NTR and traps divisive for some of the same reasons, and I suspect that a great many of the people who object vociferously to both are the same people.

Imma be honest, I really don't like the subtext you have there that trans people (which are different from the "trap" trope of porn games, thank you very much) are disingenuous and tricking people... It's fucked up on so many level and outright labels people born different and fighting to feel at ease in their bodies as trying to harm others, that's not cool.

But given how many times I ended up having posts removed because some butthurt transphobe couldn't handle talks about something they don't like, rather than simply block me (I mean come on, have some balls and outright block me instead of crying to the mods, for fuck sake), that I guess when you put it that was, I can see why people get as fuckign pissy against trans characters as the NTR crowd might do.
It makes sort of sense. A sort of sense I fucking hate, mind you, because it shows how fucking unhinged and messed up the people thinking like that are, but still I guess I can see the logic, fucked up as it may be.

 

[Fenix Wulfheart]

Somewhere (I feel like it was here as I'm not around on Dircord servers that often and saw it), Luxee shared some information about what the game would look like technically, and why it would (might have been on this thread as well).

He said, that the classic way of telling a VN, that he also used in PL, was an issue for him and his writing.
He said, that in this way of writing he always felt compelled to spell out everything, including boring/unneeded stuff, as in recording everything that went on, instead of writing scenes and only what he wanted.

He then said he had found a solution to this Me-Issue and was fully aware the majority of people might not see an issue to begin with and that the solution might not be the perfect one. But that it was the one he found and that worked for him - and at some point you can't just switch the system anymore.

The solution he found, was to borrow sandbox elements to tell a VN - so NO, he's not doing a sandbox. And he's not doing it wrong as well - he's doing what he said he was going to do:

He packs each scene up in a memory that you can select and play.

This way, he has a structure that feels detached from telling a story chronologically, that he has no issue with leaving stuff out of and can also write what he feels like writing, istead of feeling forced (and being forced to because of updates and not changing content of past updates) to continue chronologically, just because something is next timewise.

So this is still a VN, just presented a little different, but still mostly linear.

All of this is not really spread out in the games description though, so a lot of people might be unfamiliar with parts or even all of this.
...
So Luxee agreed to implement something to remove Nea from their experience. And he did it in a way that didn't need him to redo a lot of game content and adjust all future content.

Hmm. If that is how the game code is structured, would that not imply that NEW characters can be added in to the experience as well? Such a structure could, with some effort, be made to enable any character one desires to be added as long as they have some images and/or animations, and have or do some writing.

The game Brothel King does something similar, where you can get sets of images of a character and construct your own character fairly easily, and then applying some level of randomization and tagging to make the game effectively automate using the images to make an interesting experience.

Combining the two approaches could make for very interesting results. Imagine using tags to automate plot points to create emergent stories for characters, probably using AI tools to fill in the writing for those plot points, coupled with activation and deactivation for those characters. And a linking system to tie characters to one another, which could also operate on tags to enable changes in relationships over time.

That would probably take way too much effort though. Fun to think about though

 

[Fenix Wulfheart]

Imma be honest, I really don't like the subtext you have there that trans people (which are different from the "trap" trope of porn games, thank you very much) are disingenuous and tricking people... It's fucked up on so many level and outright labels people born different and fighting to feel at ease in their bodies as trying to harm others, that's not cool.

But given how many times I ended up having posts removed because some butthurt transphobe couldn't handle talks about something they don't like, rather than simply block me (I mean come on, have some balls and outright block me instead of crying to the mods, for fuck sake), that I guess when you put it that was, I can see why people get as fuckign pissy against trans characters as the NTR crowd might do.
It makes sort of sense. A sort of sense I fucking hate, mind you, because it shows how fucking unhinged and messed up the people thinking like that are, but still I guess I can see the logic, fucked up as it may be.

It is not my logic that trans and traps are the same. It is the monkey part of the human brain that sees it the same, the same unthinking monkey part of the brain that people are using when they react that way IMO.

I agree that the thinking is fucked up.

You could say that I am calling those that react that way to NTR and trans content unenlightened. In a way, I think I am. They are relying entirely on instinct and emotion as far as I can tell, without mediating it with reason.

 

[Rutonat]

It is not my logic that trans and traps are the same.

Ho I know, don't worry. But the logic you pointed out made me feel like it was such a fucked up way of thinking I couldn't ignore it.

 

[Fenix Wulfheart]

Ho I know, don't worry. But the logic you pointed out made me feel like it was such a fucked up way of thinking I couldn't ignore it.

Gotcha. FYI, I wasn't done editing that post before you responded. Sorry 'bout that, I wanted to make sure what I had to say was clear.

 

[Rutonat]

Gotcha. FYI, I wasn't done editing that post before you responded. Sorry 'bout that, I wanted to make sure what I had to say was clear.

Heh, you're good. I tend to edit after the fact as well when I notice I wrote a sentence wrong. English isn't my native language so I make dumb mistakes all the time. So I'm not gonna hold that against you.
Hell sometimes the sentences I type barely make sense at all.

 

[Hermit76]

I don't think the point is, if trans people and traps are the same (or not), but rather, if they are presented that way (or not).

 

[Biigluke]

Put lewdpatch in game folder but millie night image blacked out, fix?

 

[tyrannicpuppy]

The part that baffles me is that the game is tagged as having trans content. From what I can tell (secondhand at best as I wasn't aware of Luxee back when this game first became a thing) it was always going to have trans content in it. From the moment Luxee first announced it.

People saw those tags and discussions, played the game anyway and got all angry when they found trans content within?

It's like trying to sue a peanut company because you're allergic to peanuts, bought a bag of peanuts labelled as a bag of peanuts, ate them and got anaphylaxis. What more can the dev do but be blatantly open about the content? If you don't like that content. Don't play a game that knowingly contains it.

Just because a dev made one thing you liked doesn't mean that anything else they make needs to cater to you. And even if this has stuff you want to see, the dev wants it to contain stuff you don't too. That's their vision. Accept it. Not everything needs to tickle your particular needs exclusively.

 

[stahalle]

The part that baffles me is that the game is tagged as having trans content. From what I can tell (secondhand at best as I wasn't aware of Luxee back when this game first became a thing) it was always going to have trans content in it. From the moment Luxee first announced it.

People saw those tags and discussions, played the game anyway and got all angry when they found trans content within?

It's like trying to sue a peanut company because you're allergic to peanuts, bought a bag of peanuts labelled as a bag of peanuts, ate them and got anaphylaxis. What more can the dev do but be blatantly open about the content? If you don't like that content. Don't play a game that knowingly contains it.

Just because a dev made one thing you liked doesn't mean that anything else they make needs to cater to you. And even if this has stuff you want to see, the dev wants it to contain stuff you don't too. That's their vision. Accept it. Not everything needs to tickle your particular needs exclusively.

welcome to f95zone forums......

 

[pgm_01]

Put lewdpatch in game folder but millie night image blacked out, fix?

If you are talking about the photo she sends, the image is intentionally too dark to see anything.

 

[Dragon59]

I think the reason NTR and trap content is so divisive is because it speaks to honesty and trust. People want to feel like they can trust the character they are seeking to romance. Indeed, I think perhaps there should be a label for content that builds specifically on trust like this, that uses some of the same trappings as NTR but then subverts them as characters reject engaging in NTR. As for traps, I find it is far less divisive when it is upfront and obvious. When the character doesn't try to hide what they are. But it still remains divisive, because their appearance alone is kinda-sorta "dishonest" in the way that those seeking to avoid such dishonesty are seeing. I guess a better way to put it than honest and dishonest is "real" and "illusory"? Like, the trap confuses some people's brains by being attractive but also being unattractive in different ways at the same time, such that they are kinda-sorta an illusion insofar as the brain is receiving it? I dunno, I think there is some sort of mechanism in the brain that makes both NTR and traps divisive for some of the same reasons, and I suspect that a great many of the people who object vociferously to both are the same people.

I wonder if anyone has ever taken the time to try to verify any of that.

Why do you keep saying "trap?" A trap is a cis-male who dresses and acts in a feminine way in order entrap straight men into same sex interactions. They do this in order to fool and prank others. I haven't seen any such characters in Apartment 69.

Nea is not a cis male trying to entrap anyone. She is a trans woman trying to live according to her sexual identity, according to her brain structure. She was upfront about being trans very early in their interactions, You do Nea a great disservice comparing her to guys who try to fool and entrap men. It's about herself, not about anyone else.

Calling a trans woman a trap is like calling an African American by he "N-word," or calling a gay man by the "F-word."

I have too many trans friends to not bristle when I see people using a pejorative like that.

 

[Fenix Wulfheart]

Why do you keep saying "trap?" A trap is a cis-male who dresses and acts in a feminine way in order entrap straight men into same sex interactions. They do this in order to fool and prank others. I haven't seen any such characters in Apartment 69.

Nea is not a cis male trying to entrap anyone. She is a trans woman trying to live according to her sexual identity, according to her brain structure. She was upfront about being trans very early in their interactions, You do Nea a great disservice comparing her to guys who try to fool and entrap men. It's about herself, not about anyone else.

Calling a trans woman a trap is like calling an African American by he "N-word," or calling a gay man by the "F-word."

I have too many trans friends to not bristle when I see people using a pejorative like that.

See above where distinction is made and your question is answered.

Also, I have too many gay friends who are in fact traps to not bristle when you call trap a pejorative term. It is only negative when applied to someone who isn't one, and then only when applied to an INDIVIDUAL (like with all pejoratives).

 

[Squark ⚧❤️]

The part that baffles me is that the game is tagged as having trans content. From what I can tell (secondhand at best as I wasn't aware of Luxee back when this game first became a thing) it was always going to have trans content in it. From the moment Luxee first announced it.

People saw those tags and discussions, played the game anyway and got all angry when they found trans content within?

It's like trying to sue a peanut company because you're allergic to peanuts, bought a bag of peanuts labelled as a bag of peanuts, ate them and got anaphylaxis. What more can the dev do but be blatantly open about the content? If you don't like that content. Don't play a game that knowingly contains it.

Just because a dev made one thing you liked doesn't mean that anything else they make needs to cater to you. And even if this has stuff you want to see, the dev wants it to contain stuff you don't too. That's their vision. Accept it. Not everything needs to tickle your particular needs exclusively.

I think what most of it was that if you wanted help Nea the game practically railroads you into a relationship.
Forced resolutions such as this are as despised a mechanic as Fail one = Game Over as it removes all choice from the player.

 

[Fenix Wulfheart]

I think what most of it was that if you wanted help Nea the game practically railroads you into a relationship.
Forced resolutions such as this are as despised a mechanic as Fail one = Game Over as it removes all choice from the player.

For me personally, Nea's story hits really hard because I have two trans friends, one of whom is extremely reminiscent of Nea and who has expressed romantic interest in me, who takes rejection very hard in similar fashion, and in whom I have no romantic interest but care for a great deal otherwise. It was impossible for me to just ignore Nea, but I also didn't want a relationship, and I was surprised by what happens after...a certain incident, RE what choices you have. It just so happened to be personal, for me. I imagine a few others can say the same.

Not that I think the dev has any obligation whatsoever to cater to my personal hangups, of course! I just would rather have supported Nea non-romantically. *shrugs*

 

[xenohoe]

lets hope it doesn't take another LONG time for the next update