Ren'Py Astral Lust [v0.3.1c] [Victorius]

[moonxnw]

Hope someone can pick up this project

 

[Game Lord]

Used to belong to this developer's Discord channel a number of years ago while he was still very active on it.

I was actually surprised he would interact with us as much as he did while still working on the game as much as he was at that time.

I remember him stating one of the biggest obstacles to his game being more widely accepted as a porn game was that it was a card battle system and that fact alone turned off many potential paying customers.

I have to believe this had something to do with its eventual abandonment even if he was sick eventually and that was its primary reason for it being abandoned.

 

[Ferghus]

Used to belong to this developer's Discord channel a number of years ago while he was still very active on it.

I was actually surprised he would interact with us as much as he did while still working on the game as much as he was at that time.

I remember him stating one of the biggest obstacles to his game being more widely accepted as a porn game was that it was a card battle system and that fact alone turned off many potential paying customers.

I have to believe this had something to do with its eventual abandonment even if he was sick eventually and that was its primary reason for it being abandoned.

I don't know about you, but I'd be demoralized too if I was busting my ass to make something really neat, and I'm constantly being told that all that effort is pointless and to just push out more scenes. And if I had to constantly come home to this after working a full work day? Fuck that, I'd quit. The only way I'd keep going at that point is if I had fuck you money.

 

[Pedoune]

I refuse to believe anyone actually says this shit unironically, especially with that profile pic. Y'all gotta be biting bait.

Eh, just means he's a lazy edgelord tying to justify his shitty behavior and laziness by being MOAR EDGELORD. We can still can him out on that.

 

[NaughtyOnes]

Ahh yes the good old I have health issues so now give me all your money and get nothing for it approach. True or not its getting rather strange how many 'not really abandoned projects' go nowhere because adult game developers somehow always come down with rare conditions that do not even allow them to sit at a computer. Seems to be the exact opposite of what you would expect to me. One would think these conditions would encourage more work so they can afford this medical care they all seem to desperately need.

In the end the developers intentions or lack there of are a small thing to me as so many developers stop supporting there projects its trained me to not support it myself, I removed my stake in the game because of the shear amount of abuse this sector of the industry has permitted. While there are plenty of projects and developers that deserve more funds there are two many before them who have milked the system to the point my trust in these projects at large are not worth my investment.

So remember if someone is complaining about people only pirating a copy and not supporting a developer they can partially blame a large chunk on the shitty developers that came before them.

 

[e6mill]

Plonk.

 

[a1fox3]

Ahh yes the good old I have health issues so now give me all your money and get nothing for it approach. True or not its getting rather strange how many 'not really abandoned projects' go nowhere because adult game developers somehow always come down with rare conditions that do not even allow them to sit at a computer. Seems to be the exact opposite of what you would expect to me. One would think these conditions would encourage more work so they can afford this medical care they all seem to desperately need.

In the end the developers intentions or lack there of are a small thing to me as so many developers stop supporting there projects its trained me to not support it myself, I removed my stake in the game because of the shear amount of abuse this sector of the industry has permitted. While there are plenty of projects and developers that deserve more funds there are two many before them who have milked the system to the point my trust in these projects at large are not worth my investment.

So remember if someone is complaining about people only pirating a copy and not supporting a developer they can partially blame a large chunk on the shitty developers that came before them.

I no longer support any dev's until the game/VN is completed.
Then and only then will I either give some money or buy the product if I like it.
I have also stop playing any game that is not completed, I will try a game once to see is I like what is in it but will not play again until completed.

 

[Ferghus]

Ahh yes the good old I have health issues so now give me all your money and get nothing for it approach. True or not its getting rather strange how many 'not really abandoned projects' go nowhere because adult game developers somehow always come down with rare conditions that do not even allow them to sit at a computer. Seems to be the exact opposite of what you would expect to me. One would think these conditions would encourage more work so they can afford this medical care they all seem to desperately need.

In the end the developers intentions or lack there of are a small thing to me as so many developers stop supporting there projects its trained me to not support it myself, I removed my stake in the game because of the shear amount of abuse this sector of the industry has permitted. While there are plenty of projects and developers that deserve more funds there are two many before them who have milked the system to the point my trust in these projects at large are not worth my investment.

So remember if someone is complaining about people only pirating a copy and not supporting a developer they can partially blame a large chunk on the shitty developers that came before them.

I don't think it's strange at all. If you had to work a full time job and still pump out regular, decent-sized updates by your lonesome, you're bound to either burn out or develop some kind of health issue. Keep in mind that stress and fatigue are strong contributing factors to developing any kind of disease.

 

[Game Lord]

I do wonder if he was starting to hit a wall writing material, story wise anyway, when it came to updating the game each time and that played a part in all this?

I often times think this plays the biggest part in why so many of these games are ultimately abandoned.

 

[Skeltom]

I don't think it's strange at all. If you had to work a full time job and still pump out regular, decent-sized updates by your lonesome, you're bound to either burn out or develop some kind of health issue. Keep in mind that stress and fatigue are strong contributing factors to developing any kind of disease.

I'm on the other side of the fence with that. Just look through the countless abandoned projects around here to see why they are no longer in development. I'll save you some time, 90% of them are the same catchall excuse. Physical or mental health issues, full stop. It gets used so much that even if it were true for someone how the hell would you even know. It's an easy out and I have stopped just taking devs at their word a long time ago.

 

[Ferghus]

I'm on the other side of the fence with that. Just look through the countless abandoned projects around here to see why they are no longer in development. I'll save you some time, 90% of them are the same catchall excuse. Physical or mental health issues, full stop. It gets used so much that even if it were true for someone how the hell would you even know. It's an easy out and I have stopped just taking devs at their word a long time ago.

It's a common excuse because it's a common problem.
I don't know about you, but I've seen people in real life's hair gradually turn white due to overwhelming stress, or visit urgent care or the hospital more often because stress and lack of rest, compounding with other risk factors, resulted in drastic and sudden deterioration of their health. I shouldn't have to explain how mental health works, because I'm sure everyone at least knows one person dealing with it. One day they look alright, and half a year later they're no longer alright. Again, working a full time job and trying to meet game development expectations separately will absolutely do that to you.

The real issue isn't whether people are really getting sick physically or mentally, it's the fact that game development is very resource demanding, and a lot of people go into it underestimating the challenge or overestimating their own abilities. Elbow grease and optimism can only carry you so far. And it doesn't help that people who don't make games and don't understand how hard it is being quick to accuse them of milking, scamming, or otherwise wasting the money they're given. It's equivalent to working in a toxic work environment. Is it really that hard to see how people can get fucked up by months and years of enduring this?

 

[raydaydream]

The things that I like this game is it did have the gaming part.
You can play a game and jerk off, in between.

 

[wookie ookie]

The things that I like this game is it did have the gaming part.
You can play a game and jerk off, in between.

 

[Game Lord]

It's a common excuse because it's a common problem.
I don't know about you, but I've seen people in real life's hair gradually turn white due to overwhelming stress, or visit urgent care or the hospital more often because stress and lack of rest, compounding with other risk factors, resulted in drastic and sudden deterioration of their health. I shouldn't have to explain how mental health works, because I'm sure everyone at least knows one person dealing with it. One day they look alright, and half a year later they're no longer alright. Again, working a full time job and trying to meet game development expectations separately will absolutely do that to you.

The real issue isn't whether people are really getting sick physically or mentally, it's the fact that game development is very resource demanding, and a lot of people go into it underestimating the challenge or overestimating their own abilities. Elbow grease and optimism can only carry you so far. And it doesn't help that people who don't make games and don't understand how hard it is being quick to accuse them of milking, scamming, or otherwise wasting the money they're given. It's equivalent to working in a toxic work environment. Is it really that hard to see how people can get fucked up by months and years of enduring this?

While I agree to a certain extent with what you've said here, my mindset is, all too often you see one of three things precede many of these games before they are abandoned it seems like.

1) The game does well enough monetary wise that earlier updates that were being put out at a much higher frequency before, starts slowing down dramatically to the point where any type of update that may be put out gives the impression they are just milking the system at that point.

2) The developer starts actively arguing with its game's followers when they start requesting changes, arguing that the game is their creative vision and when some players start indicating "the game could be so much better" if the developer would just listen to and implement the changes being requested, the developer starts taking things too personally instead of just brushing them off.

3) The developer starts pandering to requests from its player base looking for what they would like to see ultimately, and while the the developer is initially receptive to this, often times starts to push back that this was not their vision for their game or getting sidetracked by each and every one of these requests and starts implementing them into their game partially but then never fully completes them before starting to implement yet another requested change.

It just seems like to me, many of these game creators may be getting overwhelmed with the scope of the project their game ultimately take on but at the same time, many of them can't handle the criticisms that comes with being a creator and making it public and then once enough negative feedback has been reached by them, they enter a shell and retreat. It's like many of them only expected positive reinforcement for their creation unrealistically. To me, not enough of them have thick enough skin, if you will. That it wasn't just the sheer scope of their game that overwhelms them but feedback about their game removing the desire to follow through and complete it for those that do enjoy it.

 

[Ferghus]

While I agree to a certain extent with what you've said here, my mindset is, all too often you see one of three things precede many of these games before they are abandoned it seems like.

1) The game does well enough monetary wise that earlier updates that were being put out at a much higher frequency before, starts slowing down dramatically to the point where any type of update that may be put out gives the impression they are just milking the system at that point.

2) The developer starts actively arguing with its game's followers when they start requesting changes, arguing that the game is their creative vision and when some players start indicating "the game could be so much better" if the developer would just listen to and implement the changes being requested, the developer starts taking things too personally instead of just brushing them off.

3) The developer starts pandering to requests from its player base looking for what they would like to see ultimately, and while the the developer is initially receptive to this, often times starts to push back that this was not their vision for their game or getting sidetracked by each and every one of these requests and starts implementing them into their game partially but then never fully completes them before starting to implement yet another requested change.

It just seems like to me, many of these game creators may be getting overwhelmed with the scope of the project their game ultimately take on but at the same time, many of them can't handle the criticisms that comes with being a creator and making it public and then once enough negative feedback has been reached by them, they enter a shell and retreat. It's like many of them only expected positive reinforcement for their creation unrealistically. To me, not enough of them have thick enough skin, if you will. That it wasn't just the sheer scope of their game that overwhelms them but feedback about their game removing the desire to follow through and complete it for those that do enjoy it.

I agree that most devs are probably way in over their heads. However, I don't believe that most go into it expecting positive reinforcement, I think most think they have thicker skin than they actually do. You have to realize that the stresses you're exposed to, especially those related to performance inadequacy and creativity, is relatively infrequent and smaller in scale in the average person's life. You might go into it thinking it'll be like 5x harder than what you're been facing, but it's actually 20x harder, or even more depending on how popular your game is.

1) Game development generally isn't linear. You might have a clear idea of what/how to implement something up to a certain point, and have visible work to show for it, but you eventually hit a point where you need some time just to lay the foundation for the next set of work you need to do. It could be anything between the chosen game engine's limitations, game balancing, creative blocks, or lack of foreknowledge. Sometimes there's backend stuff that a dev needs to handle before visible progress can be seen, but a lot of folks in these forums either don't understand that or choose not to acknowledge it. And it's undeniable that some devs are actually milking, but those accusations probably don't affect them as badly as it does people who aren't, because it signals to them that people have unreasonable expectations. And when people give you unreasonable expectations, you generally quit.

2) I think most people don't really have the kind of thick skin to take constant criticism, but it's not something you will into existence. It's a skill you develop from exposure, and it's the overexposure that kills you. Think of it like exercising and pushing past your limits into muscle injury. To heal, you'd need to either take a break or work at a significantly slower pace. How badly criticism fucks with your head isn't voluntary. Criticism feels personal because it's a personal effort. You're not doing it as another cog in the machine, you're doing it using all your wits and skills. If you work in a large company, there's a number of people you could blame, like management, or that one guy who never works well with anyone, or the shitty software they've given you to work with, but there's no such escape when you're every role at once. It's hard being told that you're doing less than your potential when you're already trying to give your all and have been for a long time. You can argue that a dev should be more professional in how they conduct themselves, but they're only human too.

3) In itself, I don't see anything wrong with asking the the audience what they want to get out of the game. Ideally, what happens is that a dev weighs the resource cost and intangible payoff to these ideas before deciding on the order of priority. What I suspect usually happens is that the dev starts with what's easiest (or at least what they think is easiest) to do, and then proceeds to fight an uphill battle as they work on increasingly difficult tasks. They might feel pressured to have something, anything to show for their effort (because that's what the loudest voices are demanding) and sucked into a cycle of doing the easiest part, stopping when they hit a dead end, and starting something new in hopes of making headway. It's simply hopeful thinking. When even that fails, all you have left is hopelessness and abandonment starts to look really good.

 

[Game Lord]

Yeah, ultimately I would hope they are finding enjoyment in doing what they are doing but my best guess is, once they no longer are, then it becomes a chore and whether they are or not earning enough money to make a living off continued development of the game is irrelevant at that point.

I just wish more developers would take the mindset of once you start something, finish it even if you're not particularly happy with the way it turned out in the end, granted they have the financial means to do so.

Personally, I think it would work wonders for them as an individual knowing they put forth the effort and saw their project to completion. And this is not me speaking from the perspective of an entitled consumer here either, in all honesty.

 

[Ferghus]

Yeah, ultimately I would hope they are finding enjoyment in doing what they are doing but my best guess is, once they no longer are, then it becomes a chore and whether they are or not earning enough money to make a living off continued development of the game is irrelevant at that point.

I just wish more developers would take the mindset of once you start something, finish it even if you're not particularly happy with the way it turned out in the end, granted they have the financial means to do so.

Personally, I think it would work wonders for them as an individual knowing they put forth the effort and saw their project to completion. And this is not me speaking from the perspective of an entitled consumer here either, in all honesty.

I think it depends on the size of the workload. If we're talking about a couple months of work left, okay, maybe. A couple years is a bit unreasonable. If a dev was to simply half ass an ending, there's basically no point in trying to make an ending, in my opinion. You'd be spending time and effort making something that's going to suck and be yelled at, so it's a negative return.

Personally, I think it's a completely valid and pragmatic to stop development if it's negatively impacting your life. Like say game development is obstructing the dev's ability to pursue something good for them, like a relationship, a healthier lifestyle, or just taking a break to reset, and development isn't even going well, then fuck it, let them go. They're not a slave and shouldn't be treated like one. And then there's the crazy people who readily accuse devs of purposely milking a game or making a game for the sole of milking Patreon donos. You know how much work has to go into a game before it gets to a state where the returns are even worth doing that? I'm more inclined to believe a dev had an unsustainable work model that just gave out. There's no real way to recover from that.

 

[Game Lord]

What I'd really like to know though, is if so many of these devs do abandon their games for health reasons, what changed along the lines to where their health began to deteriorate?

Was it spending more time investing themselves in the game trying to add more content? Game engine software limitations hitting a wall and causing them headaches on their end? Developing the game isn't paying the bills so they can't spend as much time continuing to develop the game?

Whatever the reason may be, is the the developer communicating as much to let their supporters know as much or are they keeping it bottled up inside?

Either way, my suggestion on releasing a finished product, even if the finished product takes a nosedive (see Fahrenheit as a perfect example of this,) at least they can reflect that they started and, possibly more importantly, finished a difficult project. I think giving up should only be a last resort and my belief is for many of these developers abandoning their projects, it's not a last resort, it's just the easiest one is all.

 

[Ferghus]

What I'd really like to know though, is if so many of these devs do abandon their games for health reasons, what changed along the lines to where their health began to deteriorate?

Was it spending more time investing themselves in the game trying to add more content? Game engine software limitations hitting a wall and causing them headaches on their end? Developing the game isn't paying the bills so they can't spend as much time continuing to develop the game?

Whatever the reason may be, is the the developer communicating as much to let their supporters know as much or are they keeping it bottled up inside?

Either way, my suggestion on releasing a finished product, even if the finished product takes a nosedive (see Fahrenheit as a perfect example of this,) at least they can reflect that they started and, possibly more importantly, finished a difficult project. I think giving up should only be a last resort and my belief is for many of these developers abandoning their projects, it's not a last resort, it's just the easiest one is all.

It depends on the individual, but like I said before, fatigue and stress often compounds with existing risk factors. It could manifest from something as obvious as eye strain to internal organ damage. There's sometimes dietary risk factors like consuming more caffeine than they ought to keep up with work load, or eating fast food or junk food to cut down on energy/effort in cooking. As for psychological, you sometimes gets to a point where the stress becomes self destructive. It may cause them to lose their appetite, it could impact quality of sleep, or even be as severe as causing their hormones to go out of whack. The human body is a delicate thing. Oftentimes, people will ignore early signs of it for one reason or another, until it progresses to a point where you simply can't.

As for why don't they communicate, it usually comes from the experience of being ignored. If people were quick to blow off devs pausing game development due to mental health issues, what makes you think people are any more receptive if they disclose their very personal health issues. I've seen multiple threads where people are either indifferent, apathetic, or outright hostile because they refuse to believe it. Like I remember following the Lilith's Throne development blog and people were unbelievably toxic in the comments. It's no wonder devs don't share shit.

As for "last resort", I strongly disagree. I don't see the value in completing a game for the sake of completing it and I don't think they should feel guilty for giving up. I don't think anyone understands how much time, effort, and other material or immaterial costs it takes to make the game like the dev themselves. And the wrapup could be much more difficult than what they've done so far. You try to frame it like it'll be some kind of magical milestone that'll make it all worth it at the end, but that's not how that works. If you're already way in over your head, chances are you'll never finish. You just prolong the suffering.

 

[Game Lord]

I think you are equating job burnout/overload to a drug addiction. Yes, one's health may and can be impacted by stress but once they've got their health, both physical and mental well-being back in order, it's not like they have to give up on the game's development altogether.

It's like people whose jobs get the better of them. Do they need to stop working forever on account of needing to temporarily step away from what is causing them their health issues at that time? In all honesty, it's not the job that is really causing the issues to begin with either. It's the management of their own faculties that is.

I can understand anything that is life altering, such as cancer or something long-term debilitating, resulting in a game's outright cancellation but I'm of the belief most games being abandoned, this is not the case.

Obviously every case is going to be different as no two are alike but all too often in the games I was following (this game, Monster Girl Island, Sylphine to name but a few,) each was abandoned for their own reasons but only for this game do I believe was for honest to goodness health related reasons.

Again, my belief is most abandoned games are abandoned not due to legitimate health related reasons ultimately.