3. NTR/Cuckoldry
Most of us have been here long enough to see what happens to a thread once NTRWars:Attack of the Drones begin. Nobody leaves those things happy, so let's not start that shit here, ok? This one is just personal opinion I guess, but it's still something that needs to be said. THE DAVID PATH IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOUR MASCULINITY. There are a lot of people who seem to take it personally whenever any second male character may receive a HPath in these games, and every fucking thread has these 100 page flame wars over it. For others, they enjoy the voyeurism/cuckoldry aspects, and more power to them. On another side altogether (myself included for disclosure,) you have people who don't have a deep emotional connection to the characters or self-insert at all, and just enjoy something different from Teenage Mutant Magic Penis games where the teen MC fucks everything that moves by clicking enough. In fact, for most of the dev's Patrons, the David Path/conflict with Alex is why they are subbing in the first place.
This is so true.
In games like this there seem to be 3 types of opinion.
1) People like me who don't really identify strongly with the MC so its your right hand vs. your left type of conflict (i.e. none)
2) People who hate NTR and these people REALLY HATE NTR.
3) People who love NTR and these people REALLY LOVE NTR.
Type 1 dont properly understand what Type 2 & 3 get so worked up about; And Type 2 & 3 are never going to agree.
Loved the update, it was so nice to see that David finally got to fuck Tasha, i just wished they could have produced it even more Pictures of it happening and her satisfaction of his big dick even more apparent.
I just tried the David x Tasha route (with my second save) and now I feel like I'm HW, this route should be called Harvey Weinstein simulator...The renders are great, the positions are hot AF but the whole premise is creepy and feels off. Tasha refused to sleep with the MC because she wanted to make it special, now she let an older guy fuck her brains out in all positions off thebat just because he had a hand in having her get a casting for a softcore porn shoot, totally legit.
A new synonym to hoe: "Tasha"
- A random guy while breaking up with his GF: "I saw you getting gang banged by my school friends in a party, you're a Tasha you know that? It's over between us."
That being said, I believe a lot of the times nowadays, author/s and developer/s want to add some sort of depth to their overall story by adding in some form of drama and sometimes the ever so hated melodrama... And either due to lack of creativity or perhaps the desire to copy a format sometimes found in Hentai drama, they decide to add the NTR stuff as the easiest path of adding said drama... Problem is, if they would only look at NTR's history, it is one of the most disliked forms of drama in an erotic/adult visual novel/game, to date...
NTR is actually ok in and of itself, the ability to have a losing scenario, or one where the player can fuck up and drive the LI into the arms of another, that can add tension, lots of it. But it has to be done well, and it has to be done with an understanding of how NTR adjacent stuff affects people. Especially those who do not like it.
I've found that there are two problems with NTR implementation, the first has to do with the fact that often times it makes the female characters into complete whores. I don't particularly love using that term unless I mean it, but it's the perfect one to use. For example, in My Girlfriend's Amnesia, the GF transforms from a shy, confused (due to her condition) LI into a literal cock juggler with no real explanation. The NTR route may as well be a different character entirely. In BB, pretty much everyone in the house decided to love Eric, and just told Max to go fuck himself. In Tyrant once NTR is active, the MC is treated like garbage be everyone, and the women become essentially cumsluts.
Look I write two games with NTR in them, one a little more in depth than the other. But in both I at least try to keep the characterization of the women involved consistent. Hell, when I did an update last month, my first time writing and having my stuff seen by the general public I was scared shitless that I would alienate those who didn't like NTR, after all depending on how the night played out there was a pretty good chance that one of the girls (a very popular one) was going to get railed by the antagonist in the scenes. Even if SHE didn't that opened up possibilities that the main girl would get closer to him.
Oddly enough, that didn't happen. I mean, people hated the antagonist, which I mean, they were supposed to. But there weren't cries of cuck! ringing out either. I'd like to think that means that characterization matters. That believable scenarios matter, and most importantly not ignoring the MC matters (we did not).
Then again, I'm tooting my own horn here, so I'll stop. Just trying to use an example I guess.
As an on-again, off-again Patron for this game, the amount of misinformation going on in this thread over the last few days is pretty staggering. As somebody who has read the discussions with Patrons on his page, I think I need to clear some stuff up.
1. The Dev does not hate Alex/prefers David
This is some weird rumor that gets floated around here a lot, and is 100% off-base. The creator himself actually wanted to drop the David story line to focus on Alex. See:
Look I appreciate your candor, and it's not a bad defense. It has a few holes though.
If the author didn't like the David part much and didn't feel like spending the time on it. Then he shouldn't have fucking done it. He wanted to do Alex, the game was set upto do Alex with David on the side. When he DIDN'T do Alex with David on the side the game went downhill. And it's pretty clear when you look at it.
It's rough, I know it, doing the stuff you want versus the stuff that the Patrons want, far bigger developers STILL fall into this trap. So I'm not shaming him for it. But well get to that at your next point.
The Patrons themselves (you know, the ones paying for it) were against this, saying that the David path was far more interesting than the run-of-the-mill HGame MC. A poll was then run, asking what his Patreons thought.
As we can see, keeping David in the game was what the majority of Patreons wanted (at least for the time). The obvious solution to people losing their minds over David x Tasha is to pony up some cash and have your voice mean something. This leads me on to my second point...[/spoiler]
Dealing with polls is rough at times. And that poll does say "keep the father game play in the game" not use David to the exclusion of moving the main plot forward.
But don't just look at it as 60% of patrons want David in the game (Which can mean a lot of things) Instead consider that 40% of patrons wanted the father GONE. I mean that has to be a sign to maybe reconsider how to handle the David stuff instead of doubling down.
And like I said before Never put up a poll where one of the answers will fuck up the integrity of your game. Or put up a poll hoping for a particular response. If you are married to one of the answers just go with it, because that way lies madness, just ask Dark Silver.
The guy is still working (full time as far as I can see) with nowhere near enough money to release large, stable builds every month. The fact that he is releasing a build every month at all is pretty impressive, especially as this money is split among two people. Again, if you want the game to be something closer to your own taste, there's a really easy way to have your voice heard. With as few backers as he has, you can't really blame him for wanting to keep them on board. The Tasha x Alex path hasn't been dropped, the dev can only put so much into each build, and having 2 storylines that don't overlap too much is the easiest way to make these games and get monthly builds out.
Look one thing I will never call any dev at all is lazy. Even basic stuff like Ren'py is a lot of hard fucking work. Creators work themselves to the bone for this. All the time. It's hard to really understand how much goes into this stuff until you do it yourself.
But there is another side to this too. People pledge to games that they like. And many people find out about these games here, or on fenoxo, or reddit or wherever. Many fall in love with games here, and then become patrons later on. But in order for that to happen you can't alienate a big portion of your potential fan base.
It's a shitty thing to deal with. There are patrons who left my project for a particularly divisive update made months ago even though literally all the problems with that update have since been fixed. So mistakes made hurt your game in the long run. It's not always fair, and you can recover from it, but it is what it is. When you add the whole idea of trying to bring more people in, he ends up playing with fire when the bulk of the content for the last 3 updates has been all about the David.
Most of us have been here long enough to see what happens to a thread once NTRWars:Attack of the Drones begin. Nobody leaves those things happy, so let's not start that shit here, ok? This one is just personal opinion I guess, but it's still something that needs to be said. THE DAVID PATH IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOUR MASCULINITY. There are a lot of people who seem to take it personally whenever any second male character may receive a HPath in these games, and every fucking thread has these 100 page flame wars over it. For others, they enjoy the voyeurism/cuckoldry aspects, and more power to them. On another side altogether (myself included for disclosure,) you have people who don't have a deep emotional connection to the characters or self-insert at all, and just enjoy something different from Teenage Mutant Magic Penis games where the teen MC fucks everything that moves by clicking enough. In fact, for most of the dev's Patrons, the David Path/conflict with Alex is why they are subbing in the first place. For example:
TLDR;
A lot of wrong shit is being said, and I don't want another NTRWars clusterfuck ruining another thread. If you want to see something different out of this game, give the dev a reason to listen to you.
And here is where you lose me. Look I've been navigating the fucking NTR vs NonNTR waters here for a long time before I ended up writing games with NTR in them. It's been an interesting experience, that's for sure. There is one certainty when dealing with anything NTR adjacent, and that is whenever it comes up you are treading in dangerous fucking emotional waters.
NTR for what ever reasons affects a good number people negatively. Maybe they imagine their wife in the position of the girl getting stolen, maybe it reminds them of that time in college that the girl they were into decided to fuck a coke dealer named Francois, maybe they get possessive psychologically because dudes are jealous bitches. It could be one of those, it could be none of those, it doesn't matter.
What does matter is that that particular fetish can rub people the wrong way. No one complains if someone gets pissed off when what they thought was regular porn turns into hardcore German Scheize. Or when what they thought was a straight porn film suddenly throws a bunch of dudes fucking each other on screen.
You want to bitch at people because they don't like NTR in a game called "Assholes run a train on my GF while I cry" then fair enough. But in this game? The tag isn't even there. That means that people come in with an expectation of vanilla and slowly realize that nope... Dad gets to fuck her first! CHEERS! You can forgive those who hate that kink for being a tad bit irate.
Because here's the thing: No one honestly thinks that the David path is an attack on their own masculinity, but it can very well be something that shatters the desired fantasy of the porn game itself. The game is at the end of the day about Alex who is the MC and Tasha who is the main Love Interest. So the fantasy involved is being a college kid seducing the super hot college girl. And maybe fucking your stepmom at the same time. All while avoiding letting her fall into the hands of your shitheel dad.
There is also an alternate fantasy at play in the game. The fantasy of being an asshole middle aged guy seducing that same fucking girl. While your son watches helplessly.
Those two fantasies aren't just cross purpose. They are directly cross purpose.
That means that when David fucks Tasha without equivalent content on Alex's side, that fantasy the game build up shatters into a million pieces and you're left with disappointed people.
Now it's an interesting gameplay idea to give the player control of both the antagonist and the protagonist. And having the option to try out stuff as David. I think it might have been wiser to do something like DF where the routes are completely separate... but that's neither here nor there I suppose.
All the things you say about the Patreon don't change one simple fact, focusing on David for three updates in a row while essentially stalling the stuff with the MC and Tasha has pretty much completely stalled the gameplay itself. Look all the things one had to do each week before the David stuff took over, and look at all of it after.
Story wise the game is a mess right now with Tasha acting completely different around David than she does at home and turning into an ice queen. It even retroactively makes the scenes with Alex and Tasha stand out, because the assumed reason she wouldn't go further before (hinted at virginity) is clearly not in play at all. There is no balance in the game right now.
All of that is contained in the criticisms of this update.
I just tried the David x Tasha route (with my second save) and now I feel like I'm HW, this route should be could Harvey Weinstein simulator...The renders are great, the positions are hot AF but the whole premise is creepy and feels off. Tasha refused to sleep with the MC because she wanted to make it special, now she let an older guy fuck her brains out in all positions off thebat just because he had a hand in having her get a casting for a softcore porn shoot, totally legit.
A new synonym to hoe: "Tasha"
- A random guy while breaking up with his GF: "I saw getting gang banged by school friends in a party, you're a Tasha, it(s over between us."
Yeah, I think that's the problem with the David route. He's a POS and it turns Tasha into a slut, basically prostituting herself out to this despicable guy. It changes her character into a type I'm not interested in pursuing on either route.
Yeah, I think that's the problem with the David route. He's a POS and it turns Tasha into a slut, basically prostituting herself out to this despicable guy. It changes her character into a type I'm not interested in pursuing on either route.
Already said that the most innocence in all that is surprisingly Tanya.Have the bad feeling that Alex just give her to his father who will lend her to his friend in the studio.
In some ways though some of the points such as the developer not wanting to lose money, as an excuse for deciding to sway his/her desire to creatively go one direction or another, mostly points the public perception in the direction of greed... A true artist stays true to their art, and doesn't allow public opinion to dictate their creativity and artistic expression... Websites like Patreon and others are designed to help starving artists by supplementing their artistic expression, so they don't starve and maybe even can afford to keep creating their art, or improving their art because now they can afford to buy new equipment, art supplies, pay for publishing, spend more time on their passion, etc... It was never intended for it to be used as a means of just pumping out product that caters to the whims of the consumer... So in a way, by pandering to a paying customer, the art itself is diminished for the sake of making a buck, more then creating something the artist/author really intended to make in the first place...
Not sure where the concept of attacks on masculinity came from... Don't remember anyone complaining or even mentioning that...
And if the developer really likes including NTR or it's ilk in his creation, by all means, don't let what people say about it stop him/her from doing so... Opinions are opinions... Take what is said, by anyone, with a grain of salt... Anger is definitely a sign of taking things too personally...
Plus, why should anyone have to pay just to be taken seriously, or for a developer to really listen to input/opinion, good or bad? Sounds more like bribery when it's looked at like that...
I have to disagree with you here. Art for Art's sake is great. But there is nothing wrong with wanting to make a buck doing it. When you have rent/food/family and whatever to take care of, it's going to be a harsh caclulus if you think you can get more money by doing something else.. If you come into Patreon fresh looking for big bucks, you're going to stop pretty damn fast. He's not making a ton, and he's still working hard on the game.
The romanticism surrounding the idea of the "starving artist" I think is overdone too.
That's not to say that it's a good idea to chase what your patrons want to the exclusion of what you want to do and what keeps you creatively motivated. I think there is strong evidence that happened here, but I'm not a mind reader.
you really think Alex has sex with Tasha in verse 09? what for? why and why? the slut has decided for David and fooled alex
alex should ignore the bitch and if she wants something from him or help then alex should tell her that she should go to her david and ask because she fucks him so so should you help her and then you say go the fuck out of my way
we need something like that already? until she says again that's because she has a new one or goes back to david that makes the game even worse and more unbelievable if then ales and tasha have sex
let the bitch pay for the betrayal of alex she should regret it damn and not again such a shit how should I help you need what ENOUGH with such shit
I have to disagree with you here. Art for Art's sake is great. But there is nothing wrong with wanting to make a buck doing it. When you have rent/food/family and whatever to take care of, it's going to be a harsh caclulus if you think you can get more money by doing something else.. If you come into Patreon fresh looking for big bucks, you're going to stop pretty damn fast. He's not making a ton, and he's still working hard on the game.
The romanticism surrounding the idea of the "starving artist" I think is overdone too.
That's not to say that it's a good idea to chase what your patrons want to the exclusion of what you want to do and what keeps you creatively motivated. I think there is strong evidence that happened here, but I'm not a mind reader.
maybe we should get them time for some updates and stop looking in a chrystal ball who does what, why and when.. @Goobercreek is right when he says, we need no ntr flame war
we all have our opinions and talking pro and con won't change them
and btw i'm too old to change mine either.. :evilsmile:
that said.. go #teamtasha/ala :eazyHype:
maybe we should get them time for some updates and stop looking in a chrystal ball who does what, why and when.. @Goobercreek is right when he says, we need no ntr flame war
we all have our opinions and talking pro and con won't change them
and btw i'm too old to change mine either.. :evilsmile:
that said.. go #teamtasha/ala :eazyHype:
Sadly two of my teams are gone for unknown time-Elena/DmD/ adn Alice/BB/ and third team is almost done-Tracy/DoD/.
We probably better wait for 0.10 and then decide if the game is worth it.0.8 will give us some hints what we can expect.
maybe we should get them time for some updates and stop looking in a chrystal ball who does what, why and when.. @Goobercreek is right when he says, we need no ntr flame war
we all have our opinions and talking pro and con won't change them
and btw i'm too old to change mine either.. :evilsmile:
that said.. go #teamtasha/ala :eazyHype:
Opinions change all the time. It's why we talk in the first place.
I get what you're saying, and honestly I'm about burned out here, (it just got really interesting as a conversation) but a huge part of any thread is going to be discussing what one liked and didn't, along with what worked and what didn't and that's pretty much been the thread. And as far as NTR flame wars go, this has barely even been a grease fire.
NTR is actually ok in and of itself, the ability to have a losing scenario, or one where the player can fuck up and drive the LI into the arms of another, that can add tension, lots of it. But it has to be done well, and it has to be done with an understanding of how NTR adjacent stuff affects people. Especially those who do not like it.
I've found that there are two problems with NTR implementation, the first has to do with the fact that often times it makes the female characters into complete whores. I don't particularly love using that term unless I mean it, but it's the perfect one to use. For example, in My Girlfriend's Amnesia, the GF transforms from a shy, confused (due to her condition) LI into a literal cock juggler with no real explanation. The NTR route may as well be a different character entirely. In BB, pretty much everyone in the house decided to love Eric, and just told Max to go fuck himself. In Tyrant once NTR is active, the MC is treated like garbage be everyone, and the women become essentially cumsluts.
Look I write two games with NTR in them, one a little more in depth than the other. But in both I at least try to keep the characterization of the women involved consistent. Hell, when I did an update last month, my first time writing and having my stuff seen by the general public I was scared shitless that I would alienate those who didn't like NTR, after all depending on how the night played out there was a pretty good chance that one of the girls (a very popular one) was going to get railed by the antagonist in the scenes. Even if SHE didn't that opened up possibilities that the main girl would get closer to him.
Oddly enough, that didn't happen. I mean, people hated the antagonist, which I mean, they were supposed to. But there weren't cries of cuck! ringing out either. I'd like to think that means that characterization matters. That believable scenarios matter, and most importantly not ignoring the MC matters (we did not).
Then again, I'm tooting my own horn here, so I'll stop. Just trying to use an example I guess.
Great, so in order to sleep with Charlotte, you need to sac Tasha to David. All about David it seems.
Look I appreciate your candor, and it's not a bad defense. It has a few holes though.
If the author didn't like the David part much and didn't feel like spending the time on it. Then he shouldn't have fucking done it. He wanted to do Alex, the game was set upto do Alex with David on the side. When he DIDN'T do Alex with David on the side the game went downhill. And it's pretty clear when you look at it.
It's rough, I know it, doing the stuff you want versus the stuff that the Patrons want, far bigger developers STILL fall into this trap. So I'm not shaming him for it. But well get to that at your next point.
Dealing with polls is rough at times. And that poll does say "keep the father game play in the game" not use David to the exclusion of moving the main plot forward.
But don't just look at it as 60% of patrons want David in the game (Which can mean a lot of things) Instead consider that 40% of patrons wanted the father GONE. I mean that has to be a sign to maybe reconsider how to handle the David stuff instead of doubling down.
And like I said before Never put up a poll where one of the answers will fuck up the integrity of your game. Or put up a poll hoping for a particular response. If you are married to one of the answers just go with it, because that way lies madness, just ask Dark Silver.
Look one thing I will never call any dev at all is lazy. Even basic stuff like Ren'py is a lot of hard fucking work. Creators work themselves to the bone for this. All the time. It's hard to really understand how much goes into this stuff until you do it yourself.
But there is another side to this too. People pledge to games that they like. And many people find out about these games here, or on fenoxo, or reddit or wherever. Many fall in love with games here, and then become patrons later on. But in order for that to happen you can't alienate a big portion of your potential fan base.
It's a shitty thing to deal with. There are patrons who left my project for a particularly divisive update made months ago even though literally all the problems with that update have since been fixed. So mistakes made hurt your game in the long run. It's not always fair, and you can recover from it, but it is what it is. When you add the whole idea of trying to bring more people in, he ends up playing with fire when the bulk of the content for the last 3 updates has been all about the David.
And here is where you lose me. Look I've been navigating the fucking NTR vs NonNTR waters here for a long time before I ended up writing games with NTR in them. It's been an interesting experience, that's for sure. There is one certainty when dealing with anything NTR adjacent, and that is whenever it comes up you are treading in dangerous fucking emotional waters.
NTR for what ever reasons affects a good number people negatively. Maybe they imagine their wife in the position of the girl getting stolen, maybe it reminds them of that time in college that the girl they were into decided to fuck a coke dealer named Francois, maybe they get possessive psychologically because dudes are jealous bitches. It could be one of those, it could be none of those, it doesn't matter.
What does matter is that that particular fetish can rub people the wrong way. No one complains if someone gets pissed off when what they thought was regular porn turns into hardcore German Scheize. Or when what they thought was a straight porn film suddenly throws a bunch of dudes fucking each other on screen.
You want to bitch at people because they don't like NTR in a game called "Assholes run a train on my GF while I cry" then fair enough. But in this game? The tag isn't even there. That means that people come in with an expectation of vanilla and slowly realize that nope... Dad gets to fuck her first! CHEERS! You can forgive those who hate that kink for being a tad bit irate.
Because here's the thing: No one honestly thinks that the David path is an attack on their own masculinity, but it can very well be something that shatters the desired fantasy of the porn game itself. The game is at the end of the day about Alex who is the MC and Tasha who is the main Love Interest. So the fantasy involved is being a college kid seducing the super hot college girl. And maybe fucking your stepmom at the same time. All while avoiding letting her fall into the hands of your shitheel dad.
There is also an alternate fantasy at play in the game. The fantasy of being an asshole middle aged guy seducing that same fucking girl. While your son watches helplessly.
Those two fantasies aren't just cross purpose. They are directly cross purpose.
That means that when David fucks Tasha without equivalent content on Alex's side, that fantasy the game build up shatters into a million pieces and you're left with disappointed people.
Now it's an interesting gameplay idea to give the player control of both the antagonist and the protagonist. And having the option to try out stuff as David. I think it might have been wiser to do something like DF where the routes are completely separate... but that's neither here nor there I suppose.
All the things you say about the Patreon don't change one simple fact, focusing on David for three updates in a row while essentially stalling the stuff with the MC and Tasha has pretty much completely stalled the gameplay itself. Look all the things one had to do each week before the David stuff took over, and look at all of it after.
Story wise the game is a mess right now with Tasha acting completely different around David than she does at home and turning into an ice queen. It even retroactively makes the scenes with Alex and Tasha stand out, because the assumed reason she wouldn't go further before (hinted at virginity) is clearly not in play at all. There is no balance in the game right now.
All of that is contained in the criticisms of this update.
Even though I tend to shy away from NTR, I have definitely played/read some visual novels/games that I enjoyed, even though NTR presented it's ugly head in them... But in pretty much all those cases, it was easily avoidable or through choices, it was easily and quickly stoppable... It's when it take on a longer and/or stronger place in the story telling, with much effort and difficulty required to avoid or destroy it, then I usually begin to get upset and not want to continue reading/playing... As I'm sure most players and readers feel pretty close to the same...
As I said, there are a minority of folks out there that absolutely love NTR, and I say more power to them, if that is what they like... It's just not the majorities shtick... But lets not get too hung up on the whole NTR thing, even though it tends to be an emotional rollercoaster ride...
As to this particular VN/Games lack of focus... Regardless of the reasons behind it, there is obviously a passionate negative response to it... To run away behind a shield of patron site righteousness, and throw stones at fan sites like this one and others, saying pay or shut up... That is just wrong on many different levels... Fans are Fans, regardless if they can afford to pay a donation or not...
Typically, most visual novels/game have a main protagonist and one or more focus supporting characters, usually in the form of a love/lust interest or harem setup (2 or more love/lust interests)... All other characters are there to support the main characters as well as aid in pushing the main story along... When personalities are not consistent or do not follow the game play format (such as with mental corruption/domination), mixed with the primary protagonist no longer being the story focus, then of course the balance and/or continuity just goes bonkers... Which is gonna upset folks, so you can't deny those people the right to be upset...
Now, do you fix it or leave it be, that is up to the developer... Harmful things done to a VN/Game, are hard to come back from, or very difficult to circumvent once they are in place... But my best advice will always be, the primary protagonist should always be the focus, with everything else taking a side seat or even back seat to the story of the primary protagonist and his/her primary love/lust interest/s... Sure, side stories are extremely fun and interesting to include, but everything should always lead back to the primary protagonist and his/her goals... Side stories should be short, and contribute to the over all balance of the story... To split off from the primary protagonist for too long, could be highly detrimental to the story over all, as well as harmful to the immersion a player/reader has during the story... And immersion is key...
Anyways, I think most of our points have pretty much been made...
I have to disagree with you here. Art for Art's sake is great. But there is nothing wrong with wanting to make a buck doing it. When you have rent/food/family and whatever to take care of, it's going to be a harsh caclulus if you think you can get more money by doing something else.. If you come into Patreon fresh looking for big bucks, you're going to stop pretty damn fast. He's not making a ton, and he's still working hard on the game.
The romanticism surrounding the idea of the "starving artist" I think is overdone too.
That's not to say that it's a good idea to chase what your patrons want to the exclusion of what you want to do and what keeps you creatively motivated. I think there is strong evidence that happened here, but I'm not a mind reader.
Oh, I have no qualms with an artist wanting to make some money... I have issues when a site like some of these patron sites are abused to milk money off their fans by an artist... Or the forcing of fans to have to pay (a donation) in order to communicate and/or provide feedback to a creator... Or when a artist/creator panders to a paying minority of fans over making a good product... Or when an artist feels they need to bow to paying fans needs/desires as if they are held hostage by their donations, and alter their product just to keep the money flowing and not upset those paying fans... It's more disappointing than anything else, when you see stuff like all this occur...
And I was talking in general, not necessarily this particular developer/s...
DAVID is not the main character. David is a playable antagonist. ALEX is the MC, the ENTIRE game is set up with the relationship between Alex and Tasha being the main driving force. The bulk of the gameplay is Alex. David's only real interactions are with whatever woman you bring to the beach house, and even then it is limited as fuck. He is the very definition of a secondary playable character. Using David in order to live the Harvey Weinstien life is a fine fantasy, but it's side shit. And no, as much as you think it is, Ala is not comparable. She's also side shit. It's not fucking rocket surgery.
The David stuff stops Alex/Tasha cold in its fucking tracks, and makes her come off as a bitch.
And again, in principle, there is no problem with David and Tasha fucking. None. But the execution was awful.
The idea of David being a protag, is not one that holds merit to me as the first character I play as is the one who I consider my avatar in the story. The whole argument of left hand vs right hand and getting mad because one hand wins doesn't hold water because I don't consider David my extension. And if this is a game, you have a goal, your goal given from the opening and description of his patreon is Alex/Tasha. And as the game stands now you can do nothing but fail and have your failures rubbed in your face in a biologically infuriating way.
I couldn't agree more. Inserting a new character is certainly a good thing but making him a playable character that takes away from the plot which is Alex/Tasha which was advertised in the beginning isn't the way 2 go. Setting the NTRWars aside, I could get behind David/Tasha having sex but not a cost of the main storyline and relationship and their development time. At the very beginning of the game it is stated that U R playing Alex which makes him a main character in the game so no1 else can be a protagonist so left hand/right hand comments really hold no water as you cant have 2 right or 2 left hands. ITS NOT THE SAME! If a male character doesn't help the MC 2 achieve his goals, makes them an antagonist and some1 who U should fight with 2 win the girl. Every scene with D/T automatically lowers the chances of A/T ending and makes the game much less enjoyable and harder 2 stay with during its development since every scene with David means 1 less scene of Alex. All and all, making the game AS IS was a mistake, 1 that will drive a lot of players, including me away (not 2 mention patrons).
If he really wanted 2 perspectives of the game, he shoudda gone with a different style. We could've had 2 progonists, Alex and David. The right way 2 do this was 2 make the game from both those views, asking players 2 choose at the start which character they would play and then sticking with it till the end. Not only this gives the game much higher replay value but also doesn't driver ppl mad with the NTR BS and players R more likely 2 stick with the game till the end. There's a game on here that does smth similar, mother/son and father/daughter perspectives but not sure about its name (Dual Family?) which makes it crystal clear who the protagonist is and what his goal/objective is.
Frankly this neo NTR(not the offical NTR but the extra dick phobia fetish) thing still got me confused , i actually(sincerely) thought that by playing 2 protagonist in this game can solve neo NTR (which arises from ppl self insert or roleplay issue.) is really quite ingenious.
I mean tbh frankly , if you can insert yourself into a young horny twerp , why can't u play a old horny guy? I thought most of us will associate with David more man.. honestly.
This neo NTR really confuse me , now another condition for NTR , self insert must be a young horny twerp dick or else self roleplay or insert fail? and it become NTR? Seriously this fetish need a new name man. This neo NTR term is a whole new different level from NTR , really hope an sex academic can write a paper on this.. Too complicated.
Well, despite all that rage shit (from both sides of the barricades) discussing here lately I must say - This thread got well deserved attention :closedeyesmile:
I'm sure I missed an all-out war here (Don't even want to read previous pages) but after playing the newest update I gotta say I didn't like it. It doesn't make any sense. Either the writer for this is a moron with no character building abilities or he's a complete genius. Is Tasha the somewhat innocent and hesitant girl she appears? the girl who told Alex she liked him but wanted their first time to be special? If so, the entire David arc is written extremely poorly, particularly the sex scene it culminates in. However, what if Tasha isn't that good-girl we all thought she was? Maybe she's secretly a sexually powerful woman who uses her talents to her benefit and hides it well. If so, that could build into something mysterious and surprising. Although, from the writing thus far I find that extremely unlikely and probably just my own *edit*...
Frankly this neo NTR(not the offical NTR but the extra dick phobia fetish) thing still got me confused , i actually(sincerely) thought that by playing 2 protagonist in this game can solve neo NTR (which arises from ppl self insert or roleplay issue.) is really quite ingenious.
Let me explain (my point) about the problem in this 2character thing.
1) The player immerses into two characters right from the beginning. They both have different goals, so they dont work against each other. Works fine.
2) The player immerses into two characters right from the beginning. They both have the same goal, so they would work against each other. In the end the player will choose one side and the immersion of one of them breaks. Reason for on or the other could be more consistent actions, a more familiar character or pretty simple: the character who got introduced first.
In the end you pick a side.
3.) This is what is the situation in the game, and its by far the worst. The game is advertised and build about Alex right from the start. It tells you "hey look, see this guy? its alex. and its you. you are alex" ... "see this girl? shes is alex love interest... you are alex, so its your love interest." and so on. There is no option to pick a side, you are given one explicitly.
Later you take the role of david, who suddenly has the same goal. But its too late. You already immersed. So when you take over davids perspective/control his actions, you do it as alex. Your are the player, who immersed into alex. And now immers as alex (not as the player) into david. Thats why i wrote "empathy", cause it isnt a real immersion anymore, more like comprehending the actions.
And thos actions are aimed against alex(you). David is build up as the antagonist. So alex gets besides the love interes the sidegoal: stop david.
And also giving David all the action before alex is simply a bad move. Like it was explained several times before in previous posts by the moustache.
