derpnibbles

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Jul 28, 2017
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Says who? I replay games all the damn time. And there are many games that have multiple paths and no harem or group paths. I play each girl separately on those games. You even defeat your own point by saying "most just do one play-through" while at the same time making a statement that implies literally no one replays games. That's not even close to true. Maybe you don't replay anything. I'm sure there are a lot of folks who don't replay anything. But it's not nearly as unheard of as you're making it sound.
I'm pretty firmly in the "replay games" camp, however data does exist to support "most just do one playthrough". Playstation/xbox/steam achievements have completion rates tied to them, and if they are to be believed, multiple playthroughs and even FINISHING a game is rare for most players. Achievements that require a second playthrough, or even achievements with either/or story options that would require separate playthroughs to get both usually have very very low completion rates.

The porn game community may behave differently, but at least that's the trend in the major commercial games market.

Now, that being said... People that replay games usually suck them pretty dry. Achievement data for people that get those "second playthrough" achievements seems to skew pretty heavily towards 100%. So for those players... dense games get some real use.
 

-CookieMonster666-

Devoted Member
Nov 20, 2018
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I'm pretty firmly in the "replay games" camp, however data does exist to support "most just do one playthrough". Playstation/xbox/steam achievements have completion rates tied to them, and if they are to be believed, multiple playthroughs and even FINISHING a game is rare for most players. Achievements that require a second playthrough, or even achievements with either/or story options that would require separate playthroughs to get both usually have very very low completion rates.
These stats are misleading. Many achievements are either hidden or hard to get, so a lot of players don't get them, ever. It doesn't necessarily correlate to single-vs.-multiple playthrough patterns of players. There's probably some degree of that, but I don't think that's a good basis for assumptions generally.
The porn game community may behave differently, but at least that's the trend in the major commercial games market.

Now, that being said... People that replay games usually suck them pretty dry. Achievement data for people that get those "second playthrough" achievements seems to skew pretty heavily towards 100%. So for those players... dense games get some real use.
Could be. I would even believe that most (i.e., well over 50%) only play through once. But it's hardly a zero-value proportion who actually play through multiple times.
 

Remembrance

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Feb 1, 2020
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525
Says who? I replay games all the damn time. And there are many games that have multiple paths and no harem or group paths. I play each girl separately on those games. You even defeat your own point by saying "most just do one play-through" while at the same time making a statement that implies literally no one replays games. That's not even close to true. Maybe you don't replay anything. I'm sure there are a lot of folks who don't replay anything. But it's not nearly as unheard of as you're making it sound.
Replay VNs? It's more likely for vn's going the MagiKoi route where the game branches into completely different stories early on (basically making it a combo pack of games, so it's not really a replay, rather playing 3 different versions). But for games with a lot of common route text, it's rare.

Imagine reading a book 3 times to get 20 pages of different text each time. Most ppl won't have the patience. And if you use the ctrl key to skip read text, that's not really playing the game, just hunting for scenes by 100% completionists.

By myth, I meant the thought that "adding more branching choices will nake ppl replay the game". Doesn't work that way. Replayability value of most games comes from the gameplay itself. The more different each quest/mission is everytime, either due to randomised variables or clever ai. In case of VN's it can be done by pacing, transitions etc. But even then, due to the format being basically a book with pictures, it's rare for it to have replayability value for the same text.

What choices do add is variation: a feeling that choices matter. But even in big title rpgs, most people stick to the same choices, which feels right to them, like whether to 'kill the terrorist' or 'save the freedom fighter' (same person). Ofc roleplayers may do a walkthrough roleplaying a different personality, but again, rare & not mainstream.

So while routes & branches do have value, it doesn't add much to replayability, though it does increases the feeling of importance (since you chose one of 2 & that gives the decision weight).
However this can be done without making you choose between girls. The dark & rom routes are a good example (again, ppl are not likely to replay the game through all the identical text to see their non-prefered content (rom/dark))

As for why I added most, see your post. I know many people do replay, but it's not as great as you may think, since people who do are more likely to be vocal hardcore players compared to casual players who aren't as active. I never meant no one does it, just that it's in the minority. And more importantly, the myth wasn't about the numbers but about the concept I explained above.

Even I replay games sometimes. BaDiK & DLC comes to mind recently. BaDiK for the quality of storytelling(like said above it's rare, but sometimes vns can be engaging enough to be more than a picture book), DLC cause each route has kinks I like.

But not most of the time. Splitting routes is like a dank & dirty theatre to me. I won't go there for mediocre games, but for great games I sit through it.

Tl;Dr: by myth I didn't mean no one replays games, just that adding choices doesn't add that much to replayability. Just take a game like Mass Effect, remove all the gameplay, and have ppl play through the story with only cutscenes. Most ppl will be happy with the story they craftted/decided through their choices(main importance of choices) & not opt to sit through multiple same scenes just to get some variations here & there.

So replay if you want, nothing wrong with that. Just don't assume adding lot of exclusive content in a VN is automatically enough for people to replay it. Most of the times what it'll do is cut the content in half since players can only experience either-or at any given play-through, while not nearly incentive enough to read through the same scenes again & again. Unless you use skip, but that's just hunting for scenes & not really 'playing the game'

Hope this clarified what I meant. People do replay games, but it's in the minority, especially for text-based games with no actual gameplay & most people will not start replaying games just because of branching choices. The focus of such choices is to give control to the player to craft the story, not to make the players play the game multiple times to get all outcomes (though some hardcore completionists do, myself included- i had 100% completion for maps of all planets on Mass Effect 1:alien:). Just many ppl & devs see these ppl commenting & think more branches = replayability, which is wrong. Either you go the MagiKoi route & branch the game early to minimise common text(to go the exclusive route), or give important choices which are not exclusive (choosing abby dark path doesn't lock out mal_rom path)

Anyway, ended up typing too much. Have a Great Day:)(y)

PS: "Tl;Dr: by myth I didn't mean no one replays games, just that adding choices doesn't add that much to replayability. " Another point i didn't add is having more choices is not very likely to get players who do not replay games to replay them. You may replay even harem games cause you like to replay games you enjoyed. But for people who don't, having branches isn't very likely to change that. So branches kinda become a non-factor - another concept that makes it a myth. Ofc everything is case by case basis. A well done game adds more replayability with more brances, but the branching choices is the secondary ingredient behind a very engaging gameplay, which is even more harder in reading text ganes like vns

PS again: I see how my previous statement might have led to your misunderstanding of what I meant by myth. I had explained this recently & hence subconsciously just wrote that line instead of the detailed explanation :oops:
 
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Remembrance

Member
Feb 1, 2020
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I'm pretty firmly in the "replay games" camp, however data does exist to support "most just do one playthrough". Playstation/xbox/steam achievements have completion rates tied to them, and if they are to be believed, multiple playthroughs and even FINISHING a game is rare for most players. Achievements that require a second playthrough, or even achievements with either/or story options that would require separate playthroughs to get both usually have very very low completion rates.

The porn game community may behave differently, but at least that's the trend in the major commercial games market.

Now, that being said... People that replay games usually suck them pretty dry. Achievement data for people that get those "second playthrough" achievements seems to skew pretty heavily towards 100%. So for those players... dense games get some real use.
Interesting stats. This just showcases that ppl stay true to their preferences (which is the truth to the 'myth' of 'more choices= more replayability')
Ppl who don't teplay won't do it if you add 100 branches. These are in the majority.
Hardcore completionists will replay a game with 2 branches 3 times to make sure. These are in the minority.
 
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-CookieMonster666-

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Nov 20, 2018
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Replay VNs? It's more likely for vn's going the MagiKoi route where the game branches into completely different stories early on (basically making it a combo pack of games, so it's not really a replay, rather playing 3 different versions). But for games with a lot of common route text, it's rare.

Imagine reading a book 3 times to get 20 pages of different text each time. Most ppl won't have the patience. And if you use the ctrl key to skip read text, that's not really playing the game, just hunting for scenes by 100% completionists.

By myth, I meant the thought that "adding more branching choices will nake ppl replay the game". Doesn't work that way. Replayability value of most games comes from the gameplay itself. The more different each quest/mission is everytime, either due to randomised variables or clever ai. In case of VN's it can be done by pacing, transitions etc. But even then, due to the format being basically a book with pictures, it's rare for it to have replayability value for the same text.

What choices do add is variation: a feeling that choices matter. But even in big title rpgs, most people stick to the same choices, which feels right to them, like whether to 'kill the terrorist' or 'save the freedom fighter' (same person). Ofc roleplayers may do a walkthrough roleplaying a different personality, but again, rare & not mainstream.

So while routes & branches do have value, it doesn't add much to replayability, though it does increases the feeling of importance (since you chose one of 2 & that gives the decision weight).
However this can be done without making you choose between girls. The dark & rom routes are a good example (again, ppl are not likely to replay the game through all the identical text to see their non-prefered content (rom/dark))

As for why I added most, see your post. I know many people do replay, but it's not as great as you may think, since people who do are more likely to be vocal hardcore players compared to casual players who aren't as active. I never meant no one does it, just that it's in the minority. And more importantly, the myth wasn't about the numbers but about the concept I explained above.

Even I replay games sometimes. BaDiK & DLC comes to mind recently. BaDiK for the quality of storytelling(like said above it's rare, but sometimes vns can be engaging enough to be more than a picture book), DLC cause each route has kinks I like.

But not most of the time. Splitting routes is like a dank & dirty theatre to me. I won't go there for mediocre games, but for great games I sit through it.

Tl;Dr: by myth I didn't mean no one replays games, just that adding choices doesn't add that much to replayability. Just take a game like Mass Effect, remove all the gameplay, and have ppl play through the story with only cutscenes. Most ppl will be happy with the story they craftted/decided through their choices(main importance of choices) & not opt to sit through multiple same scenes just to get some variations here & there.

So replay if you want, nothing wrong with that. Just don't assume adding lot of exclusive content in a VN is automatically enough for people to replay it. Most of the times what it'll do is cut the content in half since players can only experience either-or at any given play-through, while not nearly incentive enough to read through the same scenes again & again. Unless you use skip, but that's just hunting for scenes & not really 'playing the game'

Hope this clarified what I meant. People do replay games, but it's in the minority, especially for text-based games with no actual gameplay & most people will not start replaying games just because of branching choices. The focus of such choices is to give control to the player to craft the story, not to make the players play the game multiple times to get all outcomes (though some hardcore completionists do, myself included- i had 100% completion for maps of all planets on Mass Effect 1:alien:). Just many ppl & devs see these ppl commenting & think more branches = replayability, which is wrong. Either you go the MagiKoi route & branch the game early to minimise common text(to go the exclusive route), or give important choices which are not exclusive (choosing abby dark path doesn't lock out mal_rom path)

Anyway, ended up typing too much. Have a Great Day:)(y)

PS: "Tl;Dr: by myth I didn't mean no one replays games, just that adding choices doesn't add that much to replayability. " Another point i didn't add is having more choices is not very likely to get players who do not replay games to replay them. You may replay even harem games cause you like to replay games you enjoyed. But for people who don't, having branches isn't very likely to change that. So branches kinda become a non-factor - another concept that makes it a myth. Ofc everything is case by case basis. A well done game adds more replayability with more brances, but the branching choices is the secondary ingredient behind a very engaging gameplay, which is even more harder in reading text ganes like vns

PS again: I see how my previous statement might have led to your misunderstanding of what I meant by myth. I had explained this recently & hence subconsciously just wrote that line instead of the detailed explanation :oops:
Interesting stats. This just showcases that ppl stay true to their preferences (which is the truth to the 'myth' of 'more choices= more replayability')
Ppl who don't teplay won't do it if you add 100 branches. These are in the majority.
Hardcore completionists will replay a game with 2 branches 3 times to make sure. These are in the minority.
Comparing this to a book in terms of replayability is a bad comparison. First of all, there is such a thing as a skip function that lets a player mostly avoid the repeated parts they don't want to read multiple times. You don't have a skip function in books. The closest would be if you remembered the page number and flipped to it . . . which is basically like loading a save. (Well, that, or a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure type book, but those are rare these days.)

Additionally, there are many people who read and reread the same books, even without variation. If you really enjoy a story, you really enjoy a story. Imagine watching the same movie multiple times to get— wait, people rewatch films all the time. This isn't a very good argument to support your point.

I have already conceded that the majority of people won't replay a game, at least not a VN like this. You keep talking about replayability, but my point was that your earlier statement implied that literally no one replays games. That's just not true. Nobody is saying you'd want to replay a VN, and nobody is saying even most people would. But there are some, and pretending like there are no people isn't based in any kind of reality.

That's all I was saying. You clarified that you were being hyperbolic, and that's fine ofc. You have a great day as well. :)
 

Remembrance

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Feb 1, 2020
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Comparing this to a book in terms of replayability is a bad comparison. First of all, there is such a thing as a skip function that lets a player mostly avoid the repeated parts they don't want to read multiple times. You don't have a skip function in books. The closest would be if you remembered the page number and flipped to it . . . which is basically like loading a save. (Well, that, or a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure type book, but those are rare these days.)
I talked about the skip function & that it isn't replaying & more like using the console & jump statement to see all scenes. The game equivalent would be speed running to get 100%
The main thing you do in vns is read & look at pictures. This puts it closest to books as many devices available to games & movies are not available. This is the foundation of renpy, that you just need to sync text picture & sound to make it a more interactive book.

Additionally, there are many people who read and reread the same books, even without variation. If you really enjoy a story, you really enjoy a story. Imagine watching the same movie multiple times to get— wait, people rewatch films all the time. This isn't a very good argument to support your point.
Books have to be really good to to get ppl to reread it, movies need slightly less standards. But you wouldn't jump into a book again right after you finished it to find if certain pages got changed. The value of replayability given by routes & choices as the primary source is like these examples & thus I used them. The main point is below however.

I have already conceded that the majority of people won't replay a game, at least not a VN like this. You keep talking about replayability, but my point was that your earlier statement implied that literally no one replays games. That's just not true. Nobody is saying you'd want to replay a VN, and nobody is saying even most people would. But there are some, and pretending like there are no people isn't based in any kind of reality.

That's all I was saying. You clarified that you were being hyperbolic, and that's fine ofc. You have a great day as well. :)
Rather than hyperbolic, I mistyped. Replayability is not the myth, "having multiple branching plots leads to more replayability" is a Myth is what the statement should have been. Like you said, ppl watch movies or reread books all the time & they never have new scenes.
My points wasn't that no one reread or rewatched, but rather changing a few scenes wouldn't make ppl reread a book they wouldn't reread normally.

Basically my advise was that don't just put routes in your game thinking ppl will play the game the number of routes times. If a game is good enough to be replayable then branching routes do add some value, but it's not the branching routes that mske it replayable.

I also replay some games, but having 2 routes isn't enough to make me play it twice to see all content.
Rather this divides the content per release into half (between 2 routes). I much prefer getting all content in a vn in 1 play-through. Replays are the exception to the rule.

So no worries. It's my wrong statement that lead to this ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
 
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Pornfather 3000

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FAPPY FIRDAY AND UPDATE: Darth is looking to finish coding by end of month for D-10 (Wednesday). Then we need about two weeks to squash bugs with the help of our higher tier Patrons who get first dibs. We are getting there. D-11 (Thursday) work continues unabated and is about 90% written and 50% of art is done maybe. Also D-12 (Friday) has a "finalized" outline to it.

*Replayability for BoB its a lot more than a change in verbiage in routes. You can for sure miss major H-Scenes depending on choices you make. Heck its possible to play the entire game and not have one H-Scene. There are at least two routes PER GIRL right now. Some with more, like Janice (4) and Gena (4) for example. That all said if I was to do it over again I'd likely not design a game like this b/c the work to return is deminimis. Players don't generally seem to increase financial support for more complexity/choice and the amount of work to deliver such a game is exponentially more. Fantastic, thoughtful conversation. Excellent.

tats Test.jpg
 

Remembrance

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*Replayability for BoB its a lot more than a change in verbiage in routes. You can for sure miss major H-Scenes depending on choices you make. Heck its possible to play the entire game and not have one H-Scene. There are at least two routes PER GIRL right now. Some with more, like Janice (4) and Gena (4) for example. That all said if I was to do it over again I'd likely not design a game like this b/c the work to return is deminimis. Players don't generally seem to increase financial support for more complexity/choice and the amount of work to deliver such a game is exponentially more. Fantastic, thoughtful conversation. Excellent.
It's fine to design branching choices for AAA games, but the work is not worth the hassle for independent studios imo. You basically work [number of routes] times, yet the players only see 1/[number of routes] of the game.
This is why harem games in general are more popular, since you get the full huge content with each update.
Choices do add more substance to the game & gives more player control to shape the story, which will always have a positive impact on the perception of the story. The trick is to figure out to what extent to go.

I think the girl route branches are fine: They allow you to approach how to deal with the girls, which increases player interest (since it is their choice). Also, they still get the same content & not miss anything (either path, you still get the abby date, janice scenes etc- just different variations) so the only downside is increased workload on your side, but avoiding the player being forced to miss a scene.

Another thing to do is to cut down redundant scenes that take too much work. Like the lunch variations. No matter which 1/4 you choose, it's basically a sofia route with same variables. But the sofia route takes the most extra resources since the other 3 are basically the same with slight dialogue variations & shared render assets. You have the same conversation with sofia either way, so you could save a lot of time by not doing the sofia-only scene. You could have janice overhear mc & sofia & then force them to go to the team dinner(makes sense, right, with janice being janice). The conversation with sofia remains the same, the lead up dialogue establishes the sofia date concept & makes janice more 'bitch boss'. And you basically just saved 50% of the work by removing the extra renders (renders for team lunch variations are basically the same & dialogue in all 4 includes the sofia date dialogue) without the players feeling any significant change (their date is hijacked by janice, but they still make it work & chat with her)

So in the girl routes(or any alternative scenes) you can try to keep the scenes similar to save resources, either render assets or writting time. The abby date is a good example. It has slight variations such that you can just copy one version then make changes to change the tone from rom to dark. But just that change makes it feel much customised to the player's route choice. Most players won't replay the game for the other variation anyway, so as long as the tone fits(rom vs dark) doesn't matter if it's basically the same scene to save resources.

Some feedback on that date tho: Instead of a incest movie, the movie could've been more relevant to abby's situation: a girl in dire straits gets rescued & dominated by a guy with money. Basically a corruption version of 'pretty woman'. Or 50 shades of grey. Maybe add some sick family. That'd add more impact to the abby scene. I suggest you still replace it & save the incest movie assets for lana(sister) dates.


For this game, you already spend so much on branches for each girl. So try to avoid exclusive either/or choices which cut down the content per release even more. Instead go for inclusive yes/no choices so players still feel the ability to shape the game but not forced to miss anything.
For example, on day 9 you have to write+render kori & abby dates & then the variations for them. And the player can only see 1. So much work for 1 scene. Lazy devs spend so much time & only give this much content in update(relative to time taken) ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
However in a yes/no choice players can see both kori & abby scenes.
Players can choose if they wanna stay with kori, & then choose if they want to show up to abby late.
For charm path you spend more charm to convince abby you were working late, on dark path you spend d.charm to to show up so late & take her to a 'late night movie' (fits more for the dark route movie imo)
That way ppl get even more choices (whether they wanna go home after kori, go to abby ignoring kori, or try for both if they have points/money) instead of the game defaulting to a route based on a previous choice-giving the player more ferling of control over the game(which is good for vns, trust me) and are not forced to choose only 1of the 2 scenes, so technically day 9 now has 2 dates available instead of 1=double the content. Ppl still have restrictions on getting both (maybe add more money making options to balance? Charm seems to be fine) but they can if they play the game well, which will make the game feel better (reward for skilled play to gather required money/charm=sweet endorphin release)

Replayability for BoB its a lot more than a change in verbiage in routes. You can for sure miss major H-Scenes depending on choices you make. Heck its possible to play the entire game and not have one H-Scene.
The trick is to make that possible but not mandatory. So ppl feel some challenge & the satisfaction at overcoming the challenge(have enough money/charm to go on 2 dates=successful guy). Either/Or choices actually provide less freedom of choice since they only provide 2 choices(abby or kori) while yes/no choices provide 3 (abby yes, kori yes, both)
Right now it's not only possible, but mandatory that you miss a date scene on day 9.
Which do you think people would prefer? Games that take 2 weeks to release 1 date scene or games that take 2 weeks to release 2 date scenes (given they assume 1 week to create 1 date scene)?
This is why harem games are generally more successful in this setup & why I dislike exclusive choices in VNs which release in piecemeal updates. They cut the content for each release in half or worse.
Not to say this doesn't make games better. Choices add a sense of creating your own path in the game. I just feel exclusivity shouldn't be hard-coded in the game, but left up to the players.
Let them choose if they wanna hit up genna late at night after returning from stacy+cher date(cost charm/d.charm). Let them choose if they wanna go home to videocall gena to say goodbye or go to the concert. Or maybe they videocall the next night if missed(similar to how the genna bootycall repeats for 3 days)
Let them choose abby or kori or to try for both.
Let them get more options to make more money/charm to spend, so they feel they can win in the game. (Stock market or something? Bets?)
Don't spoon feed the content ofc, or make it mandatory to view all scenes. Just make it a possibility, a challenge to overcome if desired, while still being possible to decline any LI not interested in. (Ofc they miss h-scenes that way, but that's the player's choice, the reality: playboys get a lot more action while steady people have better sleeping hours)

Basically allow ppl a path to get to all the content you are working on in one play-through so they can actually play the full game content you guys worked hard to create.
That'd be my advise anyways.

Hope that helps & good luck for the future (y):)

PS: "Very nice" to whoever came up with the repeating genna bootycall. You can use this method to give more variations, like eg: genna video call keeps repeating until done so players don't miss it & can appreciate your work on that.
Or, you can have a filler scene that triggers if you have an empty night (by declining a LI), keeps running for a week until triggered, and then triggers on the last day anyway, if not triggered before (last day event designed to be compatible with a 2nd event) so ppl don't miss it (make it a choice so ppl can still decline it if not interested.)
 
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walker188

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Apr 30, 2017
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FAPPY FIRDAY AND UPDATE: Darth is looking to finish coding by end of month for D-10 (Wednesday). Then we need about two weeks to squash bugs with the help of our higher tier Patrons who get first dibs. We are getting there. D-11 (Thursday) work continues unabated and is about 90% written and 50% of art is done maybe. Also D-12 (Friday) has a "finalized" outline to it.

*Replayability for BoB its a lot more than a change in verbiage in routes. You can for sure miss major H-Scenes depending on choices you make. Heck its possible to play the entire game and not have one H-Scene. There are at least two routes PER GIRL right now. Some with more, like Janice (4) and Gena (4) for example. That all said if I was to do it over again I'd likely not design a game like this b/c the work to return is deminimis. Players don't generally seem to increase financial support for more complexity/choice and the amount of work to deliver such a game is exponentially more. Fantastic, thoughtful conversation. Excellent.

View attachment 2458662
I will say that's one more feather in this game's hat, it truly has different paths, perhaps too many, I can't always keep my character where I want to go.
 

Pornfather 3000

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Fappy Friday my purveyors of porn.

Here's a summary of open action items at this point:
(1) Credits list of Patreons
(2) Hannah No-Hi path (have to do some writing, a few new images and coding.)
(3) Abby Dark but Ironman dialog (done, needs coding.)
(4) Last images for animations (already done just need to upload to the cloud)
(5) Missing images (same as above)
(6) Kori pathing (done)
 

Boehser Onkel

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0x52_URM cheats (WIP)


mc stats (money ,dark,charm) // submission // influence

View attachment 1259513 View attachment 1259514 View attachment 1259515 View attachment 1645703

choices detection /outcome


View attachment 1259520 View attachment 1259521


extract attached file to *\game folder
!always save before edit!

open mod with alt+m
click the little open folder icon right upper
load a .urm file

how to use : Link

Rename (nearly) everyone,watch this tut ->>

create your own "gallery" (label search) how to --> Link



i recommend always to play the game one time without cheats to understand gamemechanics

mod should work with future updates

this mod does not modify any game files

!use at own risk! - dont complain to dev´s /modder about broken saves/gamestates
(look for a updated 0x52_urm.rpa file every month or 2 at Link, thanks to 0x52
if you like the URM Mod consider support 0x52 -->
)
update
(some var´s)
 
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