VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [Dr PinkCake]

[moskyx]

My issue comes in that whilst our choices do influence the MC predicting how they do with certainty is no more reliable than predicting plot points in general and thus are conjecture. Knowing the “why” is no easier to predict than any other plot point. My issue is people inserting motivations on the MC with such certainty because they haven’t separated out their feelings from him. It’s particularly annoying because people (perhaps unintentionally) speak with such certainty when referencing these motivations that existed only in their head. One often mentioned is “I was faithful to X so Y plot point is stupid!”... choosing not to bang people isn’t the MC being faithful, he doesn’t see it that way and says so repeatedly. I have zero issue with people filling in inconsistencies and looking outside the story (I do it all the time, I get meta about this shit a lot with myself citing the avoidance of NTR being a common one) but I always try to phrase it as conjecture. The core of my issue isn’t people predicting motivation or plot points it’s the very specific issue of people taking their motivation and treating it like canon. It’s the bizarre idea player motivations become canon once an in game choice is made. But that isn’t how it works. It’s a very specific gripe. Your conjecture on Bella in Ep5 had you not stayed with her in Ep4 is fine. Doesn’t bother me in the slightest and is constructive discussion about the game because it’s you openly predicting something based on ingame content, it isn’t you expanding on a motivation you assigned MC. Conjecture born of a plot element is one thing. Conjecture born of personal motivation is another.

Sage is an example where motivation was eventually stated. The choice early on to not become her fuck buddy has in Ep5 a stated motivation from MC. He declares to her why he stopped anything sexual, saying he didn’t like her obsession with Chad and their relationship and he didn’t want to get in the middle of anything. It makes for a very specific plot point in that the MC has an issue with, and is aware, of Sage’s obsession.

Maybe there’s more to why, but that’s conjecture in the same way what’s behind Bella’s door is. To draw any other conclusions about the why other than what the MC himself stated is conjecture. To think rejecting her is an act of faithfulness to someone else has zero in game support and goes against the stated motivation that is now a plot point. Namely that he finds her obsession concerning.

The reason the MC is angry with Maya/Josy in Ep4 is another big one. He’s fairly clear on why he’s upset but people constant self insert the reason they’re upset with them. I did this in the past! Im not innocent of this shit. But drawing conclusions on the plot based on feelings the player has about scenes is obviously absurd.

My point is the choices we make are our choices but the reason MC does them are a plot point unto themselves. Sometimes the reason why is obvious, sometimes not so much, but to infer motivation and draw conclusions based on what is conjecture about his motivations is no different than the people drawing conclusions about Bella based on the axe.

I'm sure you can see then why this game is a source of conflict to many players. When we take the role of a PC we can expect 'shaping' him in a certain way, especially when we're given so many options. If I make a choice today, that choice is based on what I've seen so far and in my own personality filling the gaps the script hasn't filled yet. Then, after 2 episodes, my PC explains that choice with a reasoning that could be logical but is far away from my original intention when I made that choice. You say I must accept that was a "plot point", I say OK I accept that, but I feel disconnected from who is supposed to be me, and that's frustrating.

We can criticize other characters, try to guess their motivations and maybe later on we'll realize we were absolutely wrong, but we can understand that as not having all the info back then for plot reasons or just because we can't be inside their heads and/or we didn't understand quite well their personality, which is strictly defined by the dev. We accept that. But you can expect some stronger connection with your PC. Sometimes you make choices based on your personal feelings not just because you haven't understand the plot and the caracterization, but because you still don't have all the pieces of your character inner puzzle. You sure need some effort to try and guess those motivations and honestly not everyone is willing or is even capable to do it.

I think that, the more options you give the players, the less defined the PC's personality should be by default. If you want to write about a character with such strong beliefs or motivations (even if he's immature and still deciding if he wants to be a DIK or a CHICK), you shouldn't give the players certain options that could lead to this dettachment from him. Or at least let them explain their own reasons. But letting them making a choice and then explaining that choice was made for some other reasons (or didn't matter as much as we could expect) because the PC has to be and behave in a certain way for plot reasons is hard to swallow.

 

[xsssssssss]

i was hoping today would be a quinn Beach render. Double disapointment to find it’s not and it’s sally who I find one of the most uninteresting side characters.

 

[Phynix]

If Sally got one then perhaps there's some hope for KRJ as well.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

I though the same, if this episode is longer maybe we should make longer estimations. But consider how many are already done it looks like a major part are done already, both animations and lines. So I don't know what to think anymore.

Well, previously I had said we could see it at the end of September since I figured that if it was going to be around the same size as ep 5, they could have it done by then when going at this pace. Now I'd say we're probably looking at the end of October which would be around the same length of time ep 5 took, albeit that was because they spent time putting Season 1 on Steam which caused it to be a 4+ month wait.

 

[ename144]

Can this happen? That happens automatically when you move away from Camila when you are done with her. Unless you call Quinn right away I don't know how you can avoid it. Being able to skip it should be a bug.

It's possible to skip it, though I doubt it happens too often. If you never visit the front door of the ANO mansion after talking with Camila, you never see Mona run out. In general, that means you need to avoid using the door closest to Camila when exiting the bar.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

i was hoping today would be a quinn Beach render. Double disapointment to find it’s not and it’s sally who I find one of the most uninteresting side characters.

I'm sure she'll get one, just as I'm sure we'll get the rest of the main LIs and side girls. DPC could easily stretch this out for the next 4 weeks, with each week having a main girl and 4 or more other side girls. The most notable girls we still have are:

1. Maya
2. Sage
3. Bella
4. Jill
5. Quinn
6. Mona
7. Heather
8. Lily
9. Ashley
10. Elena
11. Arieth
12. Jade
13. Cathy
14. Envy
15. Brandi
16. Rose
17. Sandy
18. Zoey
19. KRJ

They might even include Dany, Wendy, and Minny, and possibly even the Swyper girls, Catrin, Ellie, Nora, and Paula. So still potentially plenty to go.

If Sally got one then perhaps there's some hope for KRJ as well.

That's if DPC knows about KRJ's rising popularity. It might just be something that's done here, unless there are folks on the Discord pronouncing their fandom of KRJ too.

 

[ename144]

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It's been a mixed week workwise. I've written more of the dialogue and posed some static renders.

I've added sound effects and music to completed parts of the episode, done some playtesting and further planning of the development.

PCs have mostly been rendering animations and they have been working on some longer animations.

1320 static renders and 60 animations are completed.

I have a lot left to write, code, pose and render. I've made a list of scenes that I want in the episode and even though I've written ~7500 lines of main dialogue code (Best compared to episode 5 main dialogue file 9074 lines), I have much left to write.

I think we're heading for the longest episode to date, which is really exciting but also means that the wait will be longer.

I'll continue to give you updates to the best of my abilities.

As thanks to all patrons for helping me reach 7000 patrons, I'm currently posting daily wallpapers in a special render series I call "Beach fun".

These special renders will also be included in episode 6. I'm using this status update to give you the daily render of Sally.

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In poll news, the winner of this week's cosmetic poll for Sage is option number 1:

It will be featured in episode 6.

A new cosmetic poll for Josy will start shortly. It will be the final cosmetic poll for the episode, but not the final poll.

Dr PinkCake

Given the apparent length, it does sound like all the developments Episode 5 ducked out of addressing could finally have their day in the new episode. That would be a big help making sense of the narrative, though the long wait will be tough.

I find Sally's render a little bland, at least for a character with such a cult following. It feels like she just borrowed Bella's look in Episode 4 (minus the enormous cleavage, of course).

 

[OppaiSavior]

In poll news, the winner of this week's cosmetic poll for Sage is option number 1:

<img src="

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" data-url="https://c10.patreonusercontent.com/3/eyJwIjoxfQ%3D%3D/patreon-media/p/post/39660620/6becd29e0ee34f399dd4d88c4a7f6d49/1.jpg?token-time=1596796180&token-hash=KGrSMhJFtJ2Vqg4zVPQIGuhzd67UgYJo5ynNCXDRDaw%3D" class="bbImage" data-zoom-target="1" style="" />

It will be featured in episode 6.

Much prefer the black one but no matter what she wears, still a redhead beauty though.

 

[TrainHardnett]

It's possible to skip it, though I doubt it happens too often. If you never visit the front door of the ANO mansion after talking with Camila, you never see Mona run out. In general, that means you need to avoid using the door closest to Camila when exiting the bar.

I have skipped that scene as well unknowingly, but found them later on the 3rd floor and I was so confused but was given enough information it was due to some deal with Quinn's shenanigans behind the back of Sage.

 

[bozoplace]

Update only for mac?

No PC?

 

[Phynix]

I'm sure she'll get one, just as I'm sure we'll get the rest of the main LIs and side girls. DPC could easily stretch this out for the next 4 weeks, with each week having a main girl and 4 or more other side girls. The most notable girls we still have are:

1. Maya
2. Sage
3. Bella
4. Jill
5. Quinn
6. Mona
7. Heather
8. Lily
9. Ashley
10. Elena
11. Arieth
12. Jade
13. Cathy
14. Envy
15. Brandi
16. Rose
17. Sandy
18. Zoey
19. KRJ

They might even include Dany, Wendy, and Minny, and possibly even the Swyper girls, Catrin, Ellie, Nora, and Paula. So still potentially plenty to go.



That's if DPC knows about KRJ's rising popularity. It might just be something that's done here, unless there are folks on the Discord pronouncing their fandom of KRJ too.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't KRJ an option in one of the latest polls? That's the reason i'm a bit hopeful.

 

[Zirael Q]

Gonna wait longer huh? Well that's a shame, how will we wait that long?

 

[Wizard_Shiryuu]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't KRJ an option in one of the latest polls? That's the reason i'm a bit hopeful.

That was Sally, almost as surprising.

I have skipped that scene as well unknowingly, but found them later on the 3rd floor and I was so confused but was given enough information it was due to some deal with Quinn's shenanigans behind the back of Sage.

Those are Elena and Ashley, not Mona.

I know I posted this already, but now the thread doesn't go as fast as during release time. Where was Sage during the ANO free roam? We explored the whole house but two doors on the penthouse. In one were Quinn and Rich, Sage must have been in the other one. Why and with whom?

 

[felicemastronzo]

I'm sure you can see then why this game is a source of conflict to many players. When we take the role of a PC we can expect 'shaping' him in a certain way, especially when we're given so many options. If I make a choice today, that choice is based on what I've seen so far and in my own personality filling the gaps the script hasn't filled yet. Then, after 2 episodes, my PC explains that choice with a reasoning that could be logical but is far away from my original intention when I made that choice. You say I must accept that was a "plot point", I say OK I accept that, but I feel disconnected from who is supposed to be me, and that's frustrating.

We can criticize other characters, try to guess their motivations and maybe later on we'll realize we were absolutely wrong, but we can understand that as not having all the info back then for plot reasons or just because we can't be inside their heads and/or we didn't understand quite well their personality, which is strictly defined by the dev. We accept that. But you can expect some stronger connection with your PC. Sometimes you make choices based on your personal feelings not just because you haven't understand the plot and the caracterization, but because you still don't have all the pieces of your character inner puzzle. You sure need some effort to try and guess those motivations and honestly not everyone is willing or is even capable to do it.

I think that, the more options you give the players, the less defined the PC's personality should be by default. If you want to write about a character with such strong beliefs or motivations (even if he's immature and still deciding if he wants to be a DIK or a CHICK), you shouldn't give the players certain options that could lead to this dettachment from him. Or at least let them explain their own reasons. But letting them making a choice and then explaining that choice was made for some other reasons (or didn't matter as much as we could expect) because the PC has to be and behave in a certain way for plot reasons is hard to swallow.

all correct.

it must also be said that there are often clues to what "canon" MC should do, but we are free to force this choice.

for example, whenever there is the possibility of fighting with someone, the voice of the talking Cricket is triggered, Mc's father taught him to fight but not for this, for noble reasons.

while many other times it would be enough that the motivations were connected to the choices, we would still have one more criterion for choosing in situations where we are quite in the dark

 

[xsssssssss]

Well, previously I had said we could see it at the end of September since I figured that if it was going to be around the same size as ep 5, they could have it done by then when going at this pace. Now I'd say we're probably looking at the end of October which would be around the same length of time ep 5 took, albeit that was because they spent time putting Season 1 on Steam which caused it to be a 4+ month wait.

September, October, even November, As long as i’ve Got time to play it to pieces before the Xmas break i’ll Be content enough.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

That's only true when we are speaking of MC interactions.

That was kind of the point of my post.

For example:

• Player 1 believes there is a strong connnection between Maya and the MC and that they each have strong feelings for each other because of all the time they've spent together and because of how well the MC has treated Maya
• Player 2 believes there isn't, or at least shouldn't be, a strong connection between them because they avoided most interactions with her and weren't all that friendly towards her.

Therefore, when these 2 players engage in discussion they approach it from 2 very different viewpoints and it's what causes most of the rancor in this thread. If, however, this was a movie or even a more linear game being discussed, both viewers/players would have seen the same events unfold and so any differing opinions would more likely be based on their interpretations of the characters actions and feelings rather than on seeing 2 different sets of events and an outcome not matching up to what one of them saw.

In general, I think we should give the MC wide latitude and always strive to view his actions in the most favorable light possible. Still, I think it's fair to point out inconsistencies when they get blatant enough. I promised to stop ranting about the "no strings attached" issue, so instead I'll use Bella's Episode 5 lewd scene as n example.

I can accept that the MC is, for whatever reason, somewhat obsessed with Bella. Even if he didn't make a move on her in Episode 4, he still really wants to. Fair enough. But I still say it is a mistake not to tie her Episode 5 lewd scene to the one in Episode 4. Even if we grant that the MC can choose not to push in Episode 4 and still want to do so later, the way the scene in the sauna is staged just makes no sense to me. Bella all but begged the MC to stop in episode 3, and he did. Yet now he's presses her again, and this time when she says no he keeps going. I just don't see a way to square that circle, even if I assume the MC really, really wants Bella.

To me, that's the point at which it's fair to start questioning external issues. IMHO, the scene works very well as a followup to Bella's Episode 4 lewd scene; there, the MC does back off when Bella says no, only for Bella to reverse course and continue the scene herself. It's only when you skip that scene that the problems arise. So yes, I could insist it must be an in character action and try to work out why the MC was willing to back off once but not the second time. But I think it's a more convincing argument to say DPC didn't want to restrict Bella's sauna scene to people who stayed with her in Episode 4, and just forgot to take the consequences of that into account when he wrote the scene.

Obviously, exactly where to draw the line always going to be a judgement call. But that's the cost of doing business when debating a work of art. All we can do is try to state our criteria clearly and be as objective as possible when applying them. Well, that and stay polite when all those uncultured swine do the same right back to us.

This is where I sometimes feel that, if DPC wanted certain relationship to develop in a certain way, they shouldn't have cut off major scenes that show important moments in the development of the relationship.

For example, in ep 2 when you have the choice to go back to Maya, stay with Sage, or fuck Sarah (if you take up Quinn's offer), the Maya scene should have happened even if you pick one of the other 2 options as it's important in really building their relationship. Therefore, whether you pick Sage or Sarah, you would still go back to Maya's room to dance with her and the only difference in not picking Sage or Sarah is that you just see that scene sooner.

Other moments like visiting Bella in the library in ep 3, having half-sex with Maya, teaching Sage to play guitar, should also not have been avoidable. Yes, I know some people wouldn't have liked that as it means not avoiding characters they're not interested in, but these are important moments to really establish why these LIs feel the way they do about the MC and therefore don't make certain moments later on feel so contradictory.

It's hard if you haven't seen the whole picture. I always try to use things that happen in every route when theorizing, or at least distinguish between DIK and CHICK (as if there were only two possible routes ) but I agree with Cndyrvr4lf that some people will understand specific moments differently. I'm not sure if your problem is with people who have played only one route or with people who see things differently regardless of choices (or a combination of the two).

It's not a problem with other people really, it's just that discussing and debating something that you've seen happen in the exact the same way is a lot easier that discussing and debating something that you've seen in 2 entirely different ways. It's the example I gave above about how players who avoid interactions with a certain LI have an entirely different view on the feelings of the characters involved than those who do everything with that LI.

I just sometimes feel it would be a lot easier to discuss these things if we'd all seen the same series of events and didn't have one side saying, "Maya and the MC really care about each other because of all the time they spent together", and the other side saying, "But they didn't spend a lot of time together so why should either of them care so much?" Debating the merits and morality of cheating, lying, etc, would be a lot easier than trying to compare notes on 2 different series of events.

My issue comes in that whilst our choices do influence the MC predicting how they do with certainty is no more reliable than predicting plot points in general and thus are conjecture. Knowing the “why” is no easier to predict than any other plot point. My issue is people inserting motivations on the MC with such certainty because they haven’t separated out their feelings from him. It’s particularly annoying because people (perhaps unintentionally) speak with such certainty when referencing these motivations that existed only in their head. One often mentioned is “I was faithful to X so Y plot point is stupid!”... choosing not to bang people isn’t the MC being faithful, he doesn’t see it that way and says so repeatedly. I have zero issue with people filling in inconsistencies and looking outside the story (I do it all the time, I get meta about this shit a lot with myself citing the avoidance of NTR being a common one) but I always try to phrase it as conjecture. The core of my issue isn’t people predicting motivation or plot points it’s the very specific issue of people taking their motivation and treating it like canon. It’s the bizarre idea player motivations become canon once an in game choice is made. But that isn’t how it works. It’s a very specific gripe. Your conjecture on Bella in Ep5 had you not stayed with her in Ep4 is fine. Doesn’t bother me in the slightest and is constructive discussion about the game because it’s you openly predicting something based on ingame content, it isn’t you expanding on a motivation you assigned MC. Conjecture born of a plot element is one thing. Conjecture born of personal motivation is another.

Sage is an example where motivation was eventually stated. The choice early on to not become her fuck buddy has in Ep5 a stated motivation from MC. He declares to her why he stopped anything sexual, saying he didn’t like her obsession with Chad and their relationship and he didn’t want to get in the middle of anything. It makes for a very specific plot point in that the MC has an issue with, and is aware, of Sage’s obsession.

Maybe there’s more to why, but that’s conjecture in the same way what’s behind Bella’s door is. To draw any other conclusions about the why other than what the MC himself stated is conjecture. To think rejecting her is an act of faithfulness to someone else has zero in game support and goes against the stated motivation that is now a plot point. Namely that he finds her obsession concerning.

The reason the MC is angry with Maya/Josy in Ep4 is another big one. He’s fairly clear on why he’s upset but people constant self insert the reason they’re upset with them. I did this in the past! Im not innocent of this shit. But drawing conclusions on the plot based on feelings the player has about scenes is obviously absurd.

My point is the choices we make are our choices but the reason MC does them are a plot point unto themselves. Sometimes the reason why is obvious, sometimes not so much, but to infer motivation and draw conclusions based on what is conjecture about his motivations is no different than the people drawing conclusions about Bella based on the axe.

I appreciate that you approach these things from a point of conjecture and I hope that people can see I too generally try to do the same thing. At the end of day, I feel that this is somehwat close to the point that I was trying to make; that we are very often approaching these discussions about how the story unfolds in our own way based on how we've played it and we shouldn't assume everyone has seen it the same way. Therefore, we should always be mindful of that when discussing the events of this game and always speak in conjecture when detailing theories or interpretations of character feelings.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't KRJ an option in one of the latest polls? That's the reason i'm a bit hopeful.

You might be thinking of the special render poll for ep 6 which had Sally in amongst the contenders, but not KRJ.

 

[chromax]

Is there a game like the Tinder part in being a dik? i love this and would like to see more of it

 

[NukaCola]

Who is this Sally?

 

[Phynix]

Who is this Sally?

One of Tri-Betas and Magnar's girlfriend who turned out to be very spankable.