AvatarStormBringer

Well-Known Member
Dec 20, 2019
1,213
1,262
I don't think that's the problem, at least not directly. I do think people sometimes expect more out of the game than is realistic (in terms of it reflecting all the choices we make), and I also think the game is occasionally too heavy handed when keeping the story moving. But I think the fundamental problem of forced romance is specific to Maya and Josy; in particular, it's specific to our old nemesis, that damn library scene.

Consider Sage's scene in Episode 5. No matter how often you turn down her advances, you are still forced to talk to her in Tybalt's room, get schooled on how fraternities are supposed to work, open up to her about the MC's dead mother, and have her make another pass at the MC. Even if you don't have sex with her, it's pretty clear she and the MC enjoy each other's company. So why is it we almost never hear anyone complaining about being railroaded into friendship with Sage?

While I'm sure it helps that she will validate the MC's choices when rejected ("If you're not gay, I'm sure the girl you really want will appreciate the fuck out of you"), I think the key is that her relationship was never plot critical. The MC will meet and hang out with Sage no matter what, but at no point will he truly invest himself in a relationship with her. Thus we as the player are free to decide how much we like Sage on our own. If we like Sage, we can see more of her and the MC will naturally grow even closer. But if we don't pursue Sage, she remains at a distance; the MC's relationship with her is unchanged, and he only considers her when she is relevant to the story at hand.

Maya and (to a slightly lesser extent) Josy did not work that way. The MC's relationship with them dominates the early game. Maya is on screen constantly, and the MC's relationship with her continues to develop no matter how much you try to avoid her. Josy is rarely onscreen but the MC thinks of her frequently, each time ruminating on how important she is. The game makes it absolutely clear that the relationships with Maya and Josy take precedence over the other girls in the MC's mind.

I suspect that was at least partially intentional, because the focus on those two helps sell the sense of confusion and betrayal the MC feels when Josy arrives at the end of Episode 3. Unfortunately, I don't think DPC realized just how wide the shadow of that focus was, because the library scene (and much of their subsequent behavior in Episode 5) only makes sense if one assumes the MC's interest in them is just as casual as the rest of the girls.

That, IMHO, is why the issues about being unable to tell Maya and/or Josy 'fuck off and die,' or my own complaints about "no strings attached" keep coming up. The game relentlessly built up the two up as the MC's most important relationships, put them in direct opposition to each other, and drove the MC to a borderline existential crisis... then insisted the problem was resolved and exploring the aftermath could get back in line and wait like everyone else. Nothing more to see here!

People who really like M&J are annoyed because they feel it cheapens the importance of the decision to form a triangle. People who hated M&J are annoyed because they never got to articulate their anger and are now stuck with (at best) ghosting the two whenever possible. And people who were only interested in one of them (or just tired of the whole matter) are stonewalled because the game refuses to examine what really happened or why.

The underlying matters weren't properly resolved, and thus they continue to haunt new content that assumes it's all just water under the bridge. Until we can finally work out the situation with them once and for all, the problem will remain. Maybe that will change if and when the MC's relationship with one of the other girls (sexual or otherwise) takes center stage for a full episode. But until something really shakes up the game dynamics again, I think M&J will continue to be a lightning rod, directly or indirectly.
IMHO, I feel that almost everyone forget one fundamental fact. You are playing a VN made with Ren'Py. You are not playing an open world game. This is not The Witcher or Dragon Age. However, I do understand that everyone sees flaws in the game that just makes almost everyone cringe and wanted to debate and give ideas on how should the game be improved. If DPC is still lurking in this thread I am sure he will greatly benefit from all the things mentioned in here. Since the game is unfinished, either he already has everything planned in the upcoming episodes or he can take pointers and try to resolve all the glaring plot holes mentioned.

Sometimes in order to make the game progress, some story points cannot be avoided. Sometimes certain things can be sadly limited due to available resources, such as manpower and engine. Granted with proper planning and writing these things can be minimized. I can say that this game, especially Episode 5, has unlimited gameplay hours if you are happy with punching Tybalt for hours.
 

Johnnyboy11

Newbie
Oct 6, 2017
39
44
I don't think that's the problem, at least not directly. I do think people sometimes expect more out of the game than is realistic (in terms of it reflecting all the choices we make), and I also think the game is occasionally too heavy handed when keeping the story moving. But I think the fundamental problem of forced romance is specific to Maya and Josy; in particular, it's specific to our old nemesis, that damn library scene.

Consider Sage's scene in Episode 5. No matter how often you turn down her advances, you are still forced to talk to her in Tybalt's room, get schooled on how fraternities are supposed to work, open up to her about the MC's dead mother, and have her make another pass at the MC. Even if you don't have sex with her, it's pretty clear she and the MC enjoy each other's company. So why is it we almost never hear anyone complaining about being railroaded into friendship with Sage?

While I'm sure it helps that she will validate the MC's choices when rejected ("If you're not gay, I'm sure the girl you really want will appreciate the fuck out of you"), I think the key is that her relationship was never plot critical. The MC will meet and hang out with Sage no matter what, but at no point will he truly invest himself in a relationship with her. Thus we as the player are free to decide how much we like Sage on our own. If we like Sage, we can see more of her and the MC will naturally grow even closer. But if we don't pursue Sage, she remains at a distance; the MC's relationship with her is unchanged, and he only considers her when she is relevant to the story at hand.

Maya and (to a slightly lesser extent) Josy did not work that way. The MC's relationship with them dominates the early game. Maya is on screen constantly, and the MC's relationship with her continues to develop no matter how much you try to avoid her. Josy is rarely onscreen but the MC thinks of her frequently, each time ruminating on how important she is. The game makes it absolutely clear that the relationships with Maya and Josy take precedence over the other girls in the MC's mind.

I suspect that was at least partially intentional, because the focus on those two helps sell the sense of confusion and betrayal the MC feels when Josy arrives at the end of Episode 3. Unfortunately, I don't think DPC realized just how wide the shadow of that focus was, because the library scene (and much of their subsequent behavior in Episode 5) only makes sense if one assumes the MC's interest in them is just as casual as the rest of the girls.

That, IMHO, is why the issues about being unable to tell Maya and/or Josy 'fuck off and die,' or my own complaints about "no strings attached" keep coming up. The game relentlessly built up the two up as the MC's most important relationships, put them in direct opposition to each other, and drove the MC to a borderline existential crisis... then insisted the problem was resolved and exploring the aftermath could get back in line and wait like everyone else. Nothing more to see here!

People who really like M&J are annoyed because they feel it cheapens the importance of the decision to form a triangle. People who hated M&J are annoyed because they never got to articulate their anger and are now stuck with (at best) ghosting the two whenever possible. And people who were only interested in one of them (or just tired of the whole matter) are stonewalled because the game refuses to examine what really happened or why.

The underlying matters weren't properly resolved, and thus they continue to haunt new content that assumes it's all just water under the bridge. Until we can finally work out the situation with them once and for all, the problem will remain. Maybe that will change if and when the MC's relationship with one of the other girls (sexual or otherwise) takes center stage for a full episode. But until something really shakes up the game dynamics again, I think M&J will continue to be a lightning rod, directly or indirectly.
Boring
 

Manuka

✨Ghostwriter✨
Donor
Sep 17, 2019
312
2,454
DPC is not Martin, that's for sure, and the story is not that deep. But considering that I think the characters feel like they have their own personalities and act accordingly, except certain library scene... :ROFLMAO:

The story can become complex, though. If the tribetas are the ones behind Chad's blackmail and all that. It has the
IMHO and really just my opinion here,

I can totally understand the "retcon" of the library scene in ep.5.
I don't know about you guys, but is it really that farfetched that even after saying "I just want to be friends" there is still emotional baggage still in the air?

And Josy and Mayas reaction especially are very relatable.
Josy feels like she had no choice to hang on to the friendship even though she clearly had feelings for the MC. So once the friendship was offered she latched on to it since not doing so would potentially mean she would have lost Maya and MC.
Maya was also always attracted to MC and the talk in the room afterwards where MC pledges his loyalty can understandably be confusing, considering the fact they were almost lovers about 2-4 days (!) ago.

The only inconsistent factor is the MC since it is a projected character of yourself, so I get that some people already ended their relationship with Maya and Josy after Chapter 4 library scene (Some even before) in their head, but I absolutely do understand why Maya/Josy/MC act and think that way in chapter 5. It's just almost impossible to get closure after 1 day.
Even though I do see, why people think that it is off.
It seems to be it's Josy that will be the one to keep latching onto the MC, not Maya. There are several ways the scenes can go, but in each direction chosen it still has a "conflicted" or "uncertain" feeling when it comes to Josy, despite professing her love for Maya. It's very possible the creator decided to make Josy or Jill his unicorn in this entire storyline. And in the end, those two would be hardest to choose from--imo.

That's another valid point. The time frame in this game so far is very short. And it's unrealistic how much is going on within the episodes in such a minuscule amount of time. I can't believe people are paying $30+ per month just to get a snippet of a difference in the game. They'll be broke by the time the MC is done with college.
 

Bruceleefan

New Member
Mar 11, 2020
9
10
On part 4 at the moment. I really want to know what's in that locked room at Bella's, I also really want to be able to help her in some way with her husband.
 

Tserriednich'sNen

Engaged Member
Jan 16, 2020
2,253
6,060
Josy needs to get over MC on the friendship route especially if the player is also pursuing Jill, she has Maya and I can't imagine she'll take too kindly to Jill talking about how nice MC is to her or something like that.
 

Hawkmoon97

New Member
Aug 15, 2017
5
0
Would anybody be able to help me with an issue I've been having? I encounter an error that stops me from progressing. The screen says an exception has occurred (traceback error) and I'm given the option to rollback among other things but that doesn't fix the problem. Choosing the ignore option also does nothing. Would anyone be able to help me with a work around? Loading different saves doesn't work either.
 

Karl Franz 77

Member
Dec 21, 2017
334
382
Would anybody be able to help me with an issue I've been having? I encounter an error that stops me from progressing. The screen says an exception has occurred (traceback error) and I'm given the option to rollback among other things but that doesn't fix the problem. Choosing the ignore option also does nothing. Would anyone be able to help me with a work around? Loading different saves doesn't work either.
Do you have the mod instaled?
 

RC-1138 Boss

Message Maven
Apr 26, 2017
13,481
20,251
Josy needs to get over MC on the friendship route especially if the player is also pursuing Jill, she has Maya and I can't imagine she'll take too kindly to Jill talking about how nice MC is to her or something like that.
I get the distinct feeling the true way for a Maya (and Josy too) route is by letting them figure it out their relationship by themselves before the Protagonist and Maya can start dating.
At least that was my impression from the talk with Maya during Tybalt's party.
 

Hawkmoon97

New Member
Aug 15, 2017
5
0
Do you have the mod instaled?
I'm honestly not positive. The last version I played before this was 0.3.1. I totally forgot about it for a while so I just downloaded the newest version. Sorry for my ignorance I totally forgot when I first downloaded. I don't know if save files are corrupted or something but I hope not cause I'm pretty deep in the game
 

Karl Franz 77

Member
Dec 21, 2017
334
382
I'm honestly not positive. The last version I played before this was 0.3.1. I totally forgot about it for a while so I just downloaded the newest version. Sorry for my ignorance I totally forgot when I first downloaded. I don't know if save files are corrupted or something but I hope not cause I'm pretty deep in the game
I think you need to replay the game from the beginning.
 

Karl Franz 77

Member
Dec 21, 2017
334
382
I'm honestly not positive. The last version I played before this was 0.3.1. I totally forgot about it for a while so I just downloaded the newest version. Sorry for my ignorance I totally forgot when I first downloaded. I don't know if save files are corrupted or something but I hope not cause I'm pretty deep in the game
Here, use this: https: saves
 
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Gh0st_Harambe

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
1,745
4,805
Yeah, I didn't get that from your other post at all. I would agree with you except for that Sage isn't straddling two guys at the same time, because she's being ignored completely by one and she refuses to admit it. But I'm not sure if you say if she's acting out of character or not, but it's true that this is an unprecedented situation for her. My other point was that she doesn't seem like the kind of girl that when she's not in a commited relationship tries lots of men at the same time before choosing.
Sooner or later she will fall into the arms of the MC completely, in the future this could have consequences between DIKs and Alphas
 
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