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felicemastronzo

Devoted Member
May 17, 2020
11,682
22,571
I think BaD is hitting a problem that has been a part of choice based games in general for a while now, but is only now making its way to adult games. As much as players say they want their choices to make a difference, majority still want to feel like they are central everything and that all can be achieved. With adult games this means that while there are choices there, it requires almost all the attractive female/male characters, depending on the type of the game, to feel fundamentally attracted to the MC as it has to be MCs choice if to pursue them or not.

The difficulty is that we all get that's not how things are with human interactions, but is a part of the wish fulfillment of the game. However, it also makes it difficult to efficiently create those layered characters and plotlines as it all has to ultimately come back to the MC and have him be the deciding factor in them. It is a tricky balance and I do have some understanding towards more ambitious game developers trying to juggle that balance such as DPC is doing here. However, I also don't think that explains all the issues with the game as the most talked about plot problem here goes far beyond this.
if you are referring to Maya and Josy, I disagree. both because they are attracted to Mc, so that's not the problem, and because they are official LIs, so if they weren't attracted to Mc it would be a "scam" (as with Leah in AL for example)

if instead you refer in general to the difficulties to reach our "dreams of love", then for me it is not a problem, on the contrary it gives more taste
 

Sev162

New Member
Jun 4, 2018
11
8
no, because DPC said they are separate stories in two different "universes".
Ah that's a shame, but probably the safer way to handle things - rather than trying to make everything he does part of a big shared universe and having people wanting favourite character reappearances all the time.

As felicemastronzo says:
Thank you for finding the quote to share! Understandable that he decided to go that way. I'm glad he changed from it being a prequel to AL, but still could've been fun if it was just in the same universe with a reference or two here and there. Like I said above though, probably the safer/smarter way to just keep things separate.

It's not just the MC and Liam, it's also the two girls you can meet at the bar (whatever their names were), they got HOT uniforms.
Oh wow I didn't see the bedroom scenes with them in this replay so never saw that, but that's cool!
 
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Derptronic

Newbie
Jun 10, 2018
83
295
Random thing I just wanted to share - over the last few nights I replayed Acting Lessons for the first time since it was completed, and I never realised/didn't remember that
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Wouldn't that mean Being a DIK takes place long before Acting Lessons then? Rusty and Tommy created the frat only a couple years prior to the main story.
 

felicemastronzo

Devoted Member
May 17, 2020
11,682
22,571
It's a different universe. DPC just uses some of the same assets (guess there aren't that many fraternity assets available). It's not just the MC and Liam, it's also the two girls you can meet at the bar (whatever their names were), they got HOT uniforms.
also in "Melody" a HOT uniform appears, am I think it's just a tribute
 

ename144

Engaged Member
Sep 20, 2018
3,419
14,166
do you hope that the game of D&G resolves (partially) the complicated relationship between Maya and Josy and the "players"?
your optimism moves me, I am ready to support your dream.

maybe if they destroy the ring and save the 4 lands with heroic and altruistic gestures they can do it
No, as I said I think it's too late for DPC to fix the relationship with the players (at least directly); everyone who is inclined to forgive them already has.

But M&J are still going to be a big part of the story, so getting players hostile to them to at least grin and bear them is necessary. IMHO illustrating a genuine platonic friendship between them (rather than just asserting one exists) would be a big step in the right direction for that.

Don't dwell on it, and definitely don't try to guilt the player into admitting he was wrong to ever dislike them. Just show why MC enjoys spending time with them and move on.

My worry is that DPC is going to be so focused on giving us a solo path with each girl that the "friendship" route is only going to underscore that the two are terrible lovers and reinforce the notion that the MC should want nothing to do with them. DPC needs to reconnect the characters to the MC before he can try to split them up and pair them off. It will be a slow process, but that's what happens when you poison your own well.
 

Blake45666

Member
Aug 31, 2020
236
494
Why do people hate Josy so much? I think she is kinda cute tho
people just have their own opinions about everything and it's just a bit more obvious with Maya and Josy because a lot of people disliked episode 4's handling of the relationship between those 2 and the MC

i personally don't like the look of Bella (but i do like her as a character), and she's by far the favorite of the general community so yeah, opinions i guess. I am glad at least some people like Josy though, she's indeed cute and a fun character
 

felicemastronzo

Devoted Member
May 17, 2020
11,682
22,571
No, as I said I think it's too late for DPC to fix the relationship with the players (at least directly); everyone who is inclined to forgive them already has.

But M&J are still going to be a big part of the story, so getting players hostile to them to at least grin and bear them is necessary. IMHO illustrating a genuine platonic friendship between them (rather than just asserting one exists) would be a big step in the right direction for that.

Don't dwell on it, and definitely don't try to guilt the player into admitting he was wrong to ever dislike them. Just show why MC enjoys spending time with them and move on.

My worry is that DPC is going to be so focused on giving us a solo path with each girl that the "friendship" route is only going to underscore that the two are terrible lovers and reinforce the notion that the MC should want nothing to do with them. DPC needs to reconnect the characters to the MC before he can try to split them up and pair them off. It will be a slow process, but that's what happens when you poison your own well.
do you know what an incredible help would be in this?

in the path of friendship Maya and Josy should make an evident contribution in helping MC in the relationship with the other LIs, but a contribution so important that without it, MC would have to give up.

this would be consistent with friendship, it would clear any doubts (at least many) about the nature of the relationships between them and it would also be an interesting premise for the switch to the "solo route" with Maya or Josy

for example as fan fiction: Jill catches Mc in an unfortunate situation (due to the scavenger hunt) and decides not to have anything to do with him anymore, avoiding him repeatedly.
Josyand /or Maya takes charge of the problem and explains the misunderstanding to Jill allowing a rapprochement with MC
 
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Holy Bacchus

Conversation Conqueror
Dec 13, 2018
7,748
19,526
Who is the crumpet you are nibbling on whilst drinking your tea ;)
That would be a strumpet. I said "crumpet". ;)

I think BaD is hitting a problem that has been a part of choice based games in general for a while now, but is only now making its way to adult games. As much as players say they want their choices to make a difference, majority still want to feel like they are central everything and that all can be achieved. With adult games this means that while there are choices there, it requires almost all the attractive female/male characters, depending on the type of the game, to feel fundamentally attracted to the MC as it has to be MCs choice if to pursue them or not.

The difficulty is that we all get that's not how things are with human interactions, but is a part of the wish fulfillment of the game. However, it also makes it difficult to efficiently create those layered characters and plotlines as it all has to ultimately come back to the MC and have him be the deciding factor in them. It is a tricky balance and I do have some understanding towards more ambitious game developers trying to juggle that balance such as DPC is doing here. However, I also don't think that explains all the issues with the game as the most talked about plot problem here goes far beyond this.
It's an issue inherent in all adult games because it has become the nature of them that the MC is a babe magnet who attracts all girls to him, even ones who are not LIs and therefore don't have a path to an ending with them. Even when devs try to strike a balance by making it clear that the MC and a random side girl have no future together, players still push for it, just as they will sometimes push for girls who were never going to be with the MC to be with, i.e. KRJ. ;)

In terms of "the most talked plot problem", I think it does relate to this very thing because a major issue was the fact that he wasn't the central figure in that moment. M&J both seem to forget he's there for a moment as they have their inexplicably and unbelievably quick reconciliation, and whilst these 2 were/are in a relationship, the MC perhaps should have been the central figure because not only was he the one to clear the air and try to bring them all together, but he was also the person they both developed feelings for and had their "affair" with.

For the MC to not feel central in that moment goes against conventional adult game storytelling, and sometimes it feels like this is what DPC is wanting to do, but it doesn't always seem to work for them. AL tried to do this too with the death of a LI and it proved highly controversial, even if DPC is still happy with that decision, but as much as they keep seemingly wanting to try and reinvent the wheel, I don't think most players want that. So DPC is walking a very fine line here between giving people what they want and pissing them off by subverting expectations and taking some of their agancy as a player away from them.

It's a different universe. DPC just uses some of the same assets (guess there aren't that many fraternity assets available). It's not just the MC and Liam, it's also the two girls you can meet at the bar (whatever their names were), they got HOT uniforms.
also in "Melody" a HOT uniform appears, am I think it's just a tribute
I've mentioned this before, but the HOT uniform is from a Daz asset called " ", and both the HOT name and colour scheme are part of that asset.

Also, Sage's HOT uniform in the Ep 5 flashback is from the " " asset.
 

TripleV

Newbie
Jun 10, 2018
97
192
It's an issue inherent in all adult games because it has become the nature of them that the MC is a babe magnet who attracts all girls to him, even ones who are not LIs and therefore don't have a path to an ending with them. Even when devs try to strike a balance by making it clear that the MC and a random side girl have no future together, players still push for it, just as they will sometimes push for girls who were never going to be with the MC to be with, i.e. KRJ. ;)

In terms of "the most talked plot problem", I think it does relate to this very thing because a major issue was the fact that he wasn't the central figure in that moment. M&J both seem to forget he's there for a moment as they have their inexplicably and unbelievably quick reconciliation, and whilst these 2 were/are in a relationship, the MC perhaps should have been the central figure because not only was he the one to clear the air and try to bring them all together, but he was also the person they both developed feelings for and had their "affair" with.

For the MC to not feel central in that moment goes against conventional adult game storytelling, and sometimes it feels like this is what DPC is wanting to do, but it doesn't always seem to work for them. AL tried to do this too with the death of a LI and it proved highly controversial, even if DPC is still happy with that decision, but as much as they keep seemingly wanting to try and reinvent the wheel, I don't think most players want that. So DPC is walking a very fine line here between giving people what they want and pissing them off by subverting expectations and taking some of their agancy as a player away from them.
On the first part, I think that's another thing that is actually pretty common to fiction. If you look at a lot of major shows currently, it's often that people end pushing for relationships that are not the central romantic relationship presented as first, for example the TV show Arrow. This is pure speculation, but I think a reason for it is that often when you have those side characters, they are built to be their own thing, while the central love interest is usually defined as being a love interest and thus often feels lacking that own character to the same degree. As a result, the dynamics concerning side characters can feel a lot more appealing as they are more fun or interesting as they are developed to their own entities independent of the main character. I feel the same applies to adult games.

As for the plot problem reference, I was talking about M/J situation, but I also disagree that is presented here is the central problem. It does touch on it, though, as at that point in Episode 4, I think it was rather illustrative in that it was this sudden other story. Like I don't mind that MC wasn't a part of that discussion, as it was their relationship, but as you mention, it came out of absolutely nowhere. Their whole story before that had been about MC and who he was the only person they cared about, so to have that discussion at that point was just baffling.

However, and I'm trying to be careful as I don't want to derail the central point I was trying to make about choice, what happened in Episode 5 with M/J was so insane that I don't know how to even discuss from that perspective anymore.
 

zoyle

Member
Jan 23, 2019
155
169
That would be a strumpet. I said "crumpet". ;)



It's an issue inherent in all adult games because it has become the nature of them that the MC is a babe magnet who attracts all girls to him, even ones who are not LIs and therefore don't have a path to an ending with them. Even when devs try to strike a balance by making it clear that the MC and a random side girl have no future together, players still push for it, just as they will sometimes push for girls who were never going to be with the MC to be with, i.e. KRJ. ;)

In terms of "the most talked plot problem", I think it does relate to this very thing because a major issue was the fact that he wasn't the central figure in that moment. M&J both seem to forget he's there for a moment as they have their inexplicably and unbelievably quick reconciliation, and whilst these 2 were/are in a relationship, the MC perhaps should have been the central figure because not only was he the one to clear the air and try to bring them all together, but he was also the person they both developed feelings for and had their "affair" with.

For the MC to not feel central in that moment goes against conventional adult game storytelling, and sometimes it feels like this is what DPC is wanting to do, but it doesn't always seem to work for them. AL tried to do this too with the death of a LI and it proved highly controversial, even if DPC is still happy with that decision, but as much as they keep seemingly wanting to try and reinvent the wheel, I don't think most players want that. So DPC is walking a very fine line here between giving people what they want and pissing them off by subverting expectations and taking some of their agancy as a player away from them.




I've mentioned this before, but the HOT uniform is from a Daz asset called " ", and both the HOT name and colour scheme are part of that asset.

Also, Sage's HOT uniform in the Ep 5 flashback is from the " " asset.
Haven't been in here in a while (unfortunate there's still no update, alas), but I think you're spot on re: choice. Gamers tend to gravitate towards 'player choice/sandbox' games that actually let you have everything (think, say, Fallout 4 or Skyrim) and force the player to make very few choices where options are mutually exclusive (such as being able to do everything in FO4 until the very final quests where you have to make faction choices, if you do it correctly).

This is made a bit of a bigger problem for episodic VN type games like this because we don't know what will come in the future, and people would prefer not to have to have 6 separate saves from 6 playthroughs to see all the paths and do the one they'd like to do. Even in this game, you kind of need 2 (a DIK and a neutral/CHICK setup) to experience the full range of options.

Maya/Josy kind of was the first time this game really forced people into that sort of permanent choice, and people have to make it without actually knowing the long-term/final consequences of the choice. There's a bunch of game paths closed off by being a heavy DIK character (Maya/Josy, Jill is much more difficult), but not much payoff yet on the other side (just some side scenes, as CHICK characters have no real penalties with Sage).

I've been a part of a 3-person poly relationship for many years (about 15 now) and I actually think that BaD comes as close as I've ever seen in the adult VN space to handling it in a realistic fashion, which is to say that it's handled about as realistically as the rest of the storyline (IE it is not hyper-realistic, but it touches on legitimate, realistic truths in human interaction beneath the sex fantasy that it's presenting). I can understand why some people do not like the idea of being forced to accept the girls as a pair or not at all, since it closes off (at least apparently) future options. Now, that kind of relationship can evolve in a lot of directions (in my case, the girls are married now, and my relationship with one of the two is now entirely platonic, but the other is not), and probably in ways that are way beyond the scope of this kind of game. But for now, people are in a binary decision state and don't like having their options closed without knowing the consequences.

This is the only adult game that really forced me to make 3 separate playthroughs (I made a Josy/Maya CHICK save that also pursued both Isabella and Jill, a DIK save that focused on Sage, and a 2nd CHICK save that is the same as the first except that it didn't pursue Isabella, just in case there's a difference down the line w/ Jill based on whether you've been involved with Bella). And it'll probably be a long ass time before it's clear whether those were necessary.

When this game is a finished product, I suspect a lot of the mutually-exclusive choices will not be considered that big a deal, as we see them in a lot of other games where their are path choices. But since we don't know yet what those paths are or look like, it creates a lot of uncertainty for the player who is making choices knowing it's removing options down the road, but not knowing what those options ARE. Maybe all the people who don't like the throuple because it doesn't let them be with Josy or Maya individually will be pissed in Ep 8 when those two have an enormous falling out and the player has to choose one or the other, and by choosing friendship they've already closed the door to the path they really wanted to see.

One thing I admire about DPC as a creator is that they are willing to acknowledge the great complexity of human interaction within the space of gaming and offer people imperfect choices and characters who have distinctive and realistic personalities. IMO, they're one of the best storytellers doing this kind of work, along with EvaKiss, as they appear to have an innate feeling for how people really behave. Everything in this kind of game tends to be uber-accelerated (this game is like 2 weeks of real time, where a lot of these relationships would take months to play out this way in real life), but imo the characters at least behave in ways that reflect the often-conflicting and complex emotions that real human beings experience. And that same sense of unsurety that you get because you don't know what the long-term pathing is mimics the way that you, in reality, don't know what's going on in other people's minds and adds a certain vermisilitude to the storytelling. This stands in stark contrast to a lot of games, even pretty good ones, that are mostly on rails except for the player making certain choices about which character(s) they want to try and fuck.
 

Cabin Fever

Engaged Member
Nov 23, 2018
3,347
5,450
Random thing I just wanted to share - over the last few nights I replayed Acting Lessons for the first time since it was completed, and I never realised/didn't remember that
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Not gonna happen. Same fraternity name, different universe. DPC explicitly said so when he was still around.
 

felicemastronzo

Devoted Member
May 17, 2020
11,682
22,571
In terms of "the most talked plot problem", I think it does relate to this very thing because a major issue was the fact that he wasn't the central figure in that moment. M&J both seem to forget he's there for a moment as they have their inexplicably and unbelievably quick reconciliation, and whilst these 2 were/are in a relationship, the MC perhaps should have been the central figure because not only was he the one to clear the air and try to bring them all together, but he was also the person they both developed feelings for and had their "affair" with.
a meeting that the girls strongly insisted on and MC initially refused ...

I would not blame the psychological weakness of the players for the reaction to that episode (and DPC noticed his mistake trying to fix it)

then speaking in general that the MC, the main character, is the center of attention does not seem to me an oddity, a whim. the obsessions of the players for very secondary characters all in all is a good sign, it means that somehow even a character with very little time available and well-hidden qualities has caught their attention.
 
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Noelle Silva

Member
Jul 18, 2019
226
828
people just have their own opinions about everything and it's just a bit more obvious with Maya and Josy because a lot of people disliked episode 4's handling of the relationship between those 2 and the MC

i personally don't like the look of Bella (but i do like her as a character), and she's by far the favorite of the general community so yeah, opinions i guess. I am glad at least some people like Josy though, she's indeed cute and a fun character
Really? I always assumed Jill was by far the most popular of the general community, given she always wins polls and her previews get the most likes but I haven't been around here long enough to make a conclusion.
 

zoyle

Member
Jan 23, 2019
155
169
Really? I always assumed Jill was by far the most popular of the general community, given she always wins polls and her previews get the most likes but I haven't been around here long enough to make a conclusion.
My perception is that Bella is the most popular character in the F95 community but Jill is the most popular character among his Patreon supporters.
 

Noelle Silva

Member
Jul 18, 2019
226
828
My perception is that Bella is the most popular character in the F95 community but Jill is the most popular character among his Patreon supporters.
Funny I view it as the opposite lol. I always perceive Jill was super popular amongst the thread since I saw many, many posters who are fans of her (now less active), and her previews here get the most likes. While I see Bella being popular amongst higher tier patrons, since she won the special render poll for this episode (Sage won the first poll for lowest tier patrons, but overall Bella won from higher tier polls)
 
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Dashxp4k

Active Member
Aug 17, 2019
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Funny I view it as the opposite lol. I always perceive Jill was super popular amongst the thread since I saw many, many posters who are fans of her (now less active), and her previews here get the most likes. While I see Bella being popular amongst higher tier patrons, since she won the special render poll for this episode (Sage won the first poll for lowest tier patrons, but overall Bella won from higher tier polls)
Jill wasnt added in ep 6 poll because she won ep 5 poll. like for ep7 the poll will be Sage, Josy , Maya
 
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