- Thread starter Ryahn
- Start date
Don't be too rude to me please, I'm just spitting out crazy theories and trying to see if they can be completely refuted. Perceive this as a game please :3
(Is it me or it's giving vibes from Ace Attorney?)
(Is it me or it's giving vibes from Ace Attorney?)
- Nov 24, 2018
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If I recall correctly, the previous f95 version works just fine and also translated DLC3, albeit with slight translation errors. The official version has the better translation, and some of the music were changed due to copyright (mostly boss themes).
You're really missing the point that C end was completely planned by Mary Sue. She intended you to collect the fairy tales, pull the lever, and defeat her. It's all a show. Why would she risk her own garden in the process? Not to mention crawling one can be seen to have infiltrated before doing C end so it didn't really need any help in that regard.
Image: Azathoth's dream encompasses everything. BS 2 takes place in crawling ones garden mostly. The main reason there are so many outer ones running around in that game is to be able to mate with Grimm. As in to make children. Little difficult to do that in a dream. BS 1 takes place in Mary Sue's garden. See: chaos dungeon library.
You are mistaken. That's a fangame.
Afaik, the fan translation does not cover dlc 3 at all.
The version here does not have the changed music.
- Nov 24, 2018
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So to clarify, the version here is the official version, but not the updated one with changed music?
Huh? This is the first time i heard about a 4th DLC. DLC1-3 add Chaos Dungeon, Deep Sea & Winterbell/H end.
Unless people think the fan mod Toro partially helped out with is "official".
As sammo said both versions should be fine. The main differences are just the references to cosmic-horror/fairy tales book.
You are going cu-cu-cu-crazy. Instead you should go to Alice!
No seriously. Reminder that BS1 is Toro`s second game. Also keep in mind Toros "age" at that time. Sometimes Alice is the madness we developed along the way & there is no deeper meaning to it.
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The version here is the official translation without the updated music.
You are missing a few points as well.
1) Ending D is intended for players who got every other ending, meaning that players are strong enough to visit Sabbath Forest and Black Trial, the hardest locations in the game.
2) Getting ending C after getting ending D makes no sense, since after ending D Mary Sue is being almost killed and saved by Node after. Grimm can't "loop" nor do anything anymore. And in this case your logic has problems, since if nothing happened after ending C then it did nothing influential. Same with D end then, nothing happened right?
3) Both endings can be achieved once in one "loop"
I see, then move Azathoth's body and Dream beyond Cosmos and everything will make sense then, I guess.
Since Mary's Garden didn't crumble immediately after ending D in BS1 I just tried to justify it as a Dream (Mary's) inside a Dream (Azathoth's). But I guess it's just for developer's convenience.
I see, my bad. Thanks for clarification.
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1) Grimm/Carroll doesn't want real Alice Liddell, but the one he remembers in the past and wrote a book about: Alice's Adventure Underground or Alice in Wonderland. Or should I say that Grimm okay with TCO since he never knew little Alice, but Carroll did.
2) The Alice Grimm/Carroll met first in a Dream was TCO.
3) The Alice Carroll wanted was probably a doll, Alice-02, since she drops her fairy tale if you kill her, but it's just my theory.
4)
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(potentially Mabel) because "This world doesn't need two of the same girl", but Node saved her. Now Alice exists and not exists like a Cheshire Cat, while
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. Though it's just my crazy theory.Who was a Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland? It was Carroll, the avatar of the creator of the story.
And Cheshire tells you in this game "
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", she could tell about herself in a second or third person. It can all be a dream of Alice...But that sounds too crazy since there are inconsistences I guess.
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- Oct 24, 2022
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Ill ask again. Does anyone have a 100% + DLC save they are willing to share or do i have to put countless ours into the game again? 
Press hereIll ask again. Does anyone have a 100% + DLC save they are willing to share or do i have to put countless ours into the game again?
- Jun 28, 2018
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all I can say is all the answers you seek are in fact already here in this thread try searching though all 431 pages
1: Yes, I never said otherwise. I believe ending D is the intended final ending considering it sets up the story of BS 2. However, getting D end (technically achieving the requirements for D end) also affects C end so there is an intragame reason to do C end last.
2: I didn't say nothing happened after ending C, I said it didn't matter (because of the loop mechanic). This is based off how it works in BS 2, where after every ending, canonically, everything gets reset. Essentially, whether ending C happens or not does not matter (but it most likely did happen given how pissed Grimm and everyone else is when they meet Mary Sue in 2). Additionally, most likely Grimm did loop after ending C, before D end, because of the 0 sen scene in hotel in 2. Grimm remembers using the hotel but Red Hood says he never actually used it. So either Grimm looped after reaching C end, resetting everyone including red hood, or he just had memories implanted in him or something. I am more inclined to believe the former happened since looping is an in universe mechanic. Basically, you need to separate looping as a game mechanic and looping as an in-universe mechanic. It's likely that Grimm is forced to loop after each ending, but the player is allowed to play after an ending purely for their convenience. Anything the player does after achieving an ending, including getting other endings, is non canon.
3: This is meaningless in respect to C end affecting/causing D end. Your logic implies that Grimm can only get D end after C end due to the effect of C end presumably affecting the stability of Mary Sue's garden. But Grimm can loop (which again is not merely a game mechanic, and most likely did happen as I said just before), resetting everything which would presumably also fix any instability, assuming C end even caused said instability to begin with. Which goes back to my point, you need to answer why Mary Sue would need to risk that instability in an ending she designed. If she created a world just for this ending, as shown in her individual ending (the one reached by touching the fog at Cinderella), why would achieving that ending suddenly make her garden vulnerable to destruction? Mary Sue is an asshole but not suicidal. Why was this instability necessary for D end when crawling one had been shown to have already infiltrated (and the more likely cause being Baphomet acting outside her role with Grimm's help)?
Someone already pointed out that book is likely referring to Mary Sue killing her twin. This is supported by Jabberwock's dialogue just prior to entering the door to H route (she mentions taking care of some twins) and at the start of her solo battle in G route (in which she says she is the one who first gave Mary Sue fairy tales when she was a "child"). Finally, Mabel is ridiculously powerful. You really think a being that can encapsulate multiple powerful outer ones in their garden is gonna be killed by one that can barely handle one?
- Oct 24, 2022
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I admire your patience to still even try to explain it to them
What is the point in looking for Alice? Alice Liddell did everything she could with a help of TCO to make Carroll forget real Alice and let his dream come true. If only Mary Sue and other Outer Ones didn't intervene... *sigh*
I meant that the Alice he truly wants was Alice-02, since she drops a fairy tale. But of course he can be easily manipulated into copulating with anything that looks and smells like Alice. If he was blind, perhaps he'd also have sex with a humming lady, since it's most probably mature version of Alice Liddell. Her drops are Girl's Photo and Girl's Scent.
At least most of them the books related to Mary Sue or her family, my bad. Then Baphomet tried to kill Mary Sue because she didn't need two of the same girl?
But if we are talking about Alice in Wonderland, Cheshire Cat is the author's avatar. I can only guess too what Toro choose in his own game, though I won't say that I'm 100% correct. Sometimes truth is much simpler than we may think.
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How does it affects ending C?
Mostly agree but Grimm is not forced to "loop" but potentially choose himself to "loop", though "looping" perhaps isn't what you actually expect it to be, it's perhaps more like a "time travel", but I can be wrong.
Also consider memories of Grimm/Carroll and Red Hood being rewritten for the sake of manipulating them or saving their minds. Unless everything what happened in BS1 was just Mary's Dream, which Grimm was a part of?
In my theory Grimm didn't "loop" after getting C end and tried to achieve D end immediately after C, though he may "looped" after A or B endings. Also I didn't say that everything should reset after Grimm achieved any ending, but Grimm himself choose to loop after A or B endings. Since Grimm didn't achieve what he wanted with C end he decided to finally visit Black Trial. Though it's just a theory.
I meant that Mabel hated Alice for being the same as her and that words in book related to words of Alice who was killed.
So you say that book refers to the words of Mary's twin? "
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".Sounds quite weak for a daughter of Black Goat...
Those who born from black soul are abominations, born to destroy.
Miranda talks down Lindamea instead of fighting him by telling him he and Baphomet are just acting like puppets according to Mary Sue's whims.
It's not time travel, in the sense that Grimm is going back to the past, as there are other things that carry over between loops. Node keeps a record of how many loops you have done, Grimm's own memory, red hood missing an arm.
I didn't say you said that either. Read what I wrote and not what you want to see.
But Mabel wouldn't be fine seeing it? That logic (if you can call it that) works both ways.
There's much more support for Mary having a twin than Mabel killing Alice (but being ok with all the other Alices running around?) for some reason.
- Oct 24, 2022
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...
Then ending D makes no sense for me. Mary Sue should have lost her powers after ending D. How Grimm can see her and reset the world? How can he achieve ending C again? Hmm... unless again, Mary's Gardens existed in her own Dream, where Mary Sue and Leaf were just her own avatars. And after ending D her Dream was slowly crumbling. Or is there a better explanation?
This is why I can't call it "looping" nor "time travel" since it works very selective. You are not just walking into another layer of the same world like in Chaos Dungeon, nor you are going back in time since at some point Mabel creates a door to the DLC 3. saying "time only goes forward". So, it's just a partial reset, where Grimm, Outers One are not affected, and Red Hood is not affected for some reason (if you ignore her being as good as new until ending H).
I don't understand then why you implied that Grimm is forced to "loop" in every ending, since I didn't say that. But nevermind.
If that words in book belongs to Alice, what is the problem if Mabel hates her? I know that words "Seeing screaming, bleeding me being dragged into gears and crushed, I averted my eyes." can be perceived as if Mabel seeing Alice being dragged but not necessarily, Alice could talk about herself in a third person. Though I'm not asking you to believe it, I know that it sounds less believable than theory including Mary Sue.
Why she is okay with other "Alices"? She can't kill Outer Ones without consequences, since certain Alice belongs to Jub-Jub, Jabberwock and Bandersnatch, and other ones to The Crawling One.
(I hope your SEN is not going up too much
)