RPGM Completed Black Souls II [v1.13 Official translation] [Eeny, meeny, miny, moe?]

[Phenir]

Hmm? I thought JubJub is like obviously the little sister.. I mean, how should one interpret that scene in H ending then? Also the fact she drops Gear of Madness of all thing?

Little sister Alice says elder sister Alice left in one of the flashbacks in Winterbell. According to your/that theory, the 3 Alices are in fact also the nightmares known as Bandersnatch, Jub Jub, and Jabberwock. Except there are 4 nightmares (as said by Node), the 4th one being Lorina. Where is her Alice counterpart?
Additionally, Jabberwock shows the capability to instantly kill the other two in G/F end but for some reason doesn't do it here?
You also get 3 sounds of killing after the screen fades, rather than 1 or 2 which indicates to me that the 3 nightmares killed the 3 Alices (or possibly reverse, always follow the rule of no corpse, no death).
Finally, their true forms shown when fought at 0 sen do not match. Jub Jub, Jabberwock, and Bandersnatch have the forms of very minor beings, not even named, while the 3 alices have the forms of a mate of narly Yhoundeh, a cousin of nyarly Mynoghra, and Yib-tstll. Specifically in regards to Jub Jub, Hatta even calls her out on her true origin as a

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when she calls her a scaly bird that lives in dreamlands (in the jp version, the line is not present in the english version) while sister Alice is shown as Mynoghra based on her title shadow demoness, description compared to what is shown, and as labeled by the artist that drew the piece.

Spoiler: About Pickett

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Alice 01 is not Prickett. Alice 02 herself said she was made by Alice 01. However in BS 2, Alice 02-D aka Grand Guignol states three things. First, Alice 01 is waiting for him in Winterbell. Second, that it (GG) cannot create without a blueprint, which is why everything it does is based off something else, either something it was told to make (wonderland) or something it made previously when it was still the power of Mary Sue (VN section, Alice 01, and Alice 02-D). Third, that it brought him into being when they first perceived each other in the past. Who created Grimm? Mary Sue using her power of change, now incarnated as GG. Who is the first entity you see in the opening of BS 1? Alice 01. Thus I believe Alice 01 is a creation of Mary Sue which Grand Guignol recreated (which is only possible because it was used by Mary Sue as her power to create Alice 01 in the first place) and is now using Alice 01 as its avatar.

 

[chickenmaid]

This fan translation of the Journey of Wind and Memory fan DLC just came out a while ago

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I don't really know how to install it lol

Any news on the 2nd part (journey to Emerald City) of the fan-made DLC?

 

[Chuunikyou]

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[Chuunikyou]

Little sister Alice says elder sister Alice left in one of the flashbacks in Winterbell. According to your/that theory, the 3 Alices are in fact also the nightmares known as Bandersnatch, Jub Jub, and Jabberwock. Except there are 4 nightmares (as said by Node), the 4th one being Lorina. Where is her Alice counterpart?
Additionally, Jabberwock shows the capability to instantly kill the other two in G/F end but for some reason doesn't do it here?
You also get 3 sounds of killing after the screen fades, rather than 1 or 2 which indicates to me that the 3 nightmares killed the 3 Alices (or possibly reverse, always follow the rule of no corpse, no death).
Finally, their true forms shown when fought at 0 sen do not match. Jub Jub, Jabberwock, and Bandersnatch have the forms of very minor beings, not even named, while the 3 alices have the forms of a mate of narly Yhoundeh, a cousin of nyarly Mynoghra, and Yib-tstll. Specifically in regards to Jub Jub, Hatta even calls her out on her true origin as a

You must be registered to see the links

when she calls her a scaly bird that lives in dreamlands (in the jp version, the line is not present in the english version) while sister Alice is shown as Mynoghra based on her title shadow demoness, description compared to what is shown, and as labeled by the artist that drew the piece.


Alice 01 is not Prickett. Alice 02 herself said she was made by Alice 01. However in BS 2, Alice 02-D aka Grand Guignol states three things. First, Alice 01 is waiting for him in Winterbell. Second, that it (GG) cannot create without a blueprint, which is why everything it does is based off something else, either something it was told to make (wonderland) or something it made previously when it was still the power of Mary Sue (VN section, Alice 01, and Alice 02-D). Third, that it brought him into being when they first perceived each other in the past. Who created Grimm? Mary Sue using her power of change, now incarnated as GG. Who is the first entity you see in the opening of BS 1? Alice 01. Thus I believe Alice 01 is a creation of Mary Sue which Grand Guignol recreated (which is only possible because it was used by Mary Sue as her power to create Alice 01 in the first place) and is now using Alice 01 as its avatar.

1. It is said that Older Sister Alice left right? One of my theories includes that Prickett is supposed to be The 4th Nightmare and also Elder Sister Alice. She played the part of being Elder Sister Alice until she got enough of it and hached the plan with Mabel and Node (Winterbell Flashback), this makes sense for me since Younger Sister flashback is also in Winterbell

Basically
Prickett suffering flashback -> Prickett inheriting Winterbell and Prickett Plan flashback -> Younger Sister Alice Flashback

This gives reason to the parting of Elder Sister Alice to leave Wonderland and stays at Winterbell (now Queensland). Now since Prickett's seat in the 4 Nightmare is gone, TCO went to earth to recruit Alice Lindell's REAL older sister to become the replacement, that is Lorina. 0 Sen Form of the Nightmares being underwhelming could simply be because it is their avatar form in wonderland not their true form. There's really no reason to have the 3 nightmares in H ending if not to reveal their true identites, 3 sounds could just imply them shedding their "role" as Alice idk.

2. Your argument makes total sense honestly, The only problem I have with it is how Alice 01 reacted to the name Grimm.. It really make it feel like Alice 01 knew Grimm before the game... which would overcomplicate stuff..

Edit:
Forgot to add how when you met both Prickett and Jabberwock for the first time, they don the sprite of Alice. (In Prickett's case this could also just relate to her identity as TCO's spawn but most likely Alice from the Tea Party... or Alice 01)
Prickett line in her date suggests she felt constrained by something in the past and "sneaked away" from it.... Elder Sister Alice

 

[Nullx54]

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Spoiler: Going on about Pickett

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[Chuunikyou]

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Spoiler: Going on about Pickett

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[Phenir]

1. It is said that Older Sister Alice left right? One of my theories includes that Prickett is supposed to be The 4th Nightmare and also Elder Sister Alice. She played the part of being Elder Sister Alice until she got enough of it and hached the plan with Mabel and Node (Winterbell Flashback), this makes sense for me since Younger Sister flashback is also in Winterbell

Basically
Prickett suffering flashback -> Prickett inheriting Winterbell and Prickett Plan flashback -> Younger Sister Alice Flashback

This gives reason to the parting of Elder Sister Alice to leave Wonderland and stays at Winterbell (now Queensland).

The Little sister flashback is to set up her helping Grimm at the end. To show she's getting lost in her role so it doesn't come out of nowhere.

0 Sen Form of the Nightmares being underwhelming could simply be because it is their avatar form in wonderland not their true form. There's really no reason to have the 3 nightmares in H ending if not to reveal their true identites, 3 sounds could just imply them shedding their "role" as Alice idk.

And yet Hatta recognizes that form as Jub Jub's true form. Even in F/G route when Jabberwock reveals herself, she still doesn't line up with Mother Alice. And it still doesn't address Jabberwock not just instantly killing the other two on the spot if she wanted Grimm for herself that badly.
As for them showing up at the end, rebellion to weaken crawling one's forces? Mabel, Prickett, and Node aren't the only ones that have plans going on. After all, Mary has to escape somehow and what better time than while crawling one is fighting Node and Dynah and the 3 Alices are slain by her caretaker, Jabberwock, and friends.

2. Your argument makes total sense honestly, The only problem I have with it is how Alice 01 reacted to the name Grimm.. It really make it feel like Alice 01 knew Grimm before the game... which would overcomplicate stuff..

She knew Grimm like you know your mother. He wrote her fairy tale.

Edit:
Forgot to add how when you met both Prickett and Jabberwock for the first time, they don the sprite of Alice. (In Prickett's case this could also just relate to her identity as TCO's spawn but most likely Alice from the Tea Party... or Alice 01)
Prickett line in her date suggests she felt constrained by something in the past and "sneaked away" from it.... Elder Sister Alice

Prickett only appears as Alice if your sen is 0. In other words, Grimm recognizes her as Tea Party Alice for a moment. Jabberwock's is the location. It's similar to the spot in the opening of the game where you are split up from your chosen Alice.

Spoiler: Going on about Pickett

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I said Alice 01, as in the Alice from the opening of BS 1, is the creation of Mary Sue. And because she is, that allows GG to be able to create its own Alice 01 in BS 2 since it otherwise would not be able to.
crawling one is the one that catches Mary Sue in D end. The flashback in Winterbell involving Mary Sue indicates Node had to step in to prevent it from killing her. Node specifically names crawling one as the one that attacked Mary Sue.

Alice 01/Pickett did create Alice 02 because she knew that Grimm needed an out in case she was killed and Grimm needed her help to break out of Elysium as her fairy tale is one of the last one's you need to expose the garden's true form.

And not because Mary Sue literally wrote the story to be that way? Which she tells you in her character ending only after you achieve ending C. Everything that happens outside D end is according to her plan.

 

[Omnom88]

Have to disagree. Pickett is Alice 01 because she became Red Queen and she as well as Node Stripped Mary Sue of her powers, she cannot be a creation of Mary Sue as she is the avatar of TCO (and in my opinion actually a fusion of the real Alice and TCO), no creation of Mary Sue apart from Grimm potentially could even dare to try and take her powers.

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[Al-Hazrad]

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[Omnom88]

I agree on this. You will also later discover that some characters have a double references/personalities as well, like Jabberwock being Yhoundeh and Gith from the Fall of Cthulhu.
Also the story with Pumpkin Knight and The Duchess reminds me of "

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", where character of the story trying to find a shelter in the house, but encounters a cannibal. I won't be surprised if Pumpkin Knight led people to feed Margaret. Also she reminds me of Sysyphyx. They have some similarities in their sprites. Here is

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and here is

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.

The things you linked make it seem that way. Could be case. Jack o Latern/Pumpkin Knights 100 & 0 SEN interactions are so drastic in difference that i have no clue if its just Grimm`s insanity or a actual conceptual entity.

You see, if I completely agree with you, then we will ignore the fact Grimm is implanted with many triggers while also being actively manipulated by TCO and perhaps by Node as well. It's maddening experience of course, but Grimm is still more or less normal, until he engages in an intercourse with someone, but with some exceptions like sudden attack on Red Hood and Mary Sue being raped (if you rape her after using "Drink me", you can see Grimm mentioning that he heard a smirk behind him. I wonder if it's TCO or even Prickett planned a torture for Mary Sue). In such moments something likes turns a switch within Grimm, which looks unnatural, isn't it?

Similarly with the scenes in Mental Ward and Hotel Poseidon. You won't ever see these scenes unless Grimm's SEN is 100, meaning than his affinity with madness/outer one's perception, but not his own madness triggers such visions.

Or do you think I'm wrong?

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[Phenir]

Hotel occurs at 100 sen. But if Red hood saves you, then your sen gets set to 0 after the scene.

 

[Al-Hazrad]

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[Phenir]

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Grimm can fix her

 

[Omnom88]

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Hotel occurs at 100 sen. But if Red hood saves you, then your sen gets set to 0 after the scene.

Okay thank karma my memory isnt as bad as i assumed. SEN mental effect is negated by Red`s action.

 

[Al-Hazrad]

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[Chuunikyou]

Alright new discussion!
What's with Dorothy content in BS2.
Hope someone answers, because my own headcanon of Dorothy is kind of weird.

 

[Omnom88]

The point of the conversation was in explaining that Grimm's visions depends on SEN level, but not on his own sanity. Also Grimm's behavior dependent on SEN level too, but also on many triggers that he was implanted with. That means that Grimm is not totally insane, but rather forced to act as if insane because of triggers.

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[Al-Hazrad]

Alright new discussion!
What's with Dorothy content in BS2.
Hope someone answers, because my own headcanon of Dorothy is kind of weird.

There is a content both from BS1 and BS2 regarding Dorothy:

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[Omnom88]

Though it is correct that Grimm's perception is very warped (as TCO intended it to be) when his SEN is more than 0, he also see things that normal human shouldn't see, like Star Vampires/Star Spirits

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[Darkyan97]

Amazing summary, I would love to hear opinions of players now with all the theory changes/new theories and reveals after a year.

For me there are two things: how did GG pull back grimm after G ending happens and if mary sue did not lie, all the happenings in the dream world were not even a 1 year outside? red hood came back after getting out because grimm got pulled back? poor girl really

secondly, I dont think mabel truly die. there were some talk about her real body and all (been some time since I played so maybe I am remembering wrong)

1. Honestly, I don't know. My best guess is that GG's (Mary Sue's) power is just that great. And yeah I think real world time halts to a crawl when inside the Garden of Outer Gods.

2. I think Yog Sothoth definitely lives, it's just that he/she gave up on the avatar named Mabel because her role wasn't needed anymore.