Maybe he'll drop it on April "Fools", honoring his patreon (or whatever he's using) fanbase
- Thread starter Oseo Bones
- Start date
- Jan 22, 2018
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What you're highlighting is exactly my issue: sunk-cost fallacy is a lazy way to drive player engagement (and a boring way for me as a player). It always leads to unnecessarily bloated experiences that could easily be trimmed down and be better as a result because the experience would become more focused on the core aspects.
I don't mind games that take their time if the writing and developments justify the time it takes. One I love like that is Long Live the Princess where getting to the sister character is very long and tricky, BUT ! Along the way you get an engaging magic-murder-mystery story and get to uncover more about that sister. There's also a lesbian you can turn Bi or straight if you want, entirely as side content, and it also takes time to develop, but each scene tends to be different, you're progressing a storyline, not repeating an action for a nebulous stat increase.
There's stats grind, and it takes a while to get them to the max and unlock everything, but it doesn't matter because you're experiencing scenes and story-moments along the way. This games strikes the right balance of porn and compelling storytelling for me. Nothing too fancy, but still some nice twists and layered characters to learn about (like I said, nothing too fancy, but it's miles above most of the competition)
Here in The Manor, all I'm doing is spying on characters, perving a bit on them and playing tag all to raise the stats and unlock the scenes.
There's not really any engaging story going on in this phase, it's mindless grind. And even when I unlock scenes, it doesn't feel earned (neither from a narrative standpoint, nor from a gameplay standpoint).
EDIT: To further explain the previous point in less words: There's no "AH HA !" moment, it's all "FINALLY.", if that makes sense
My go-to example for a well balanced game with this kind of grind is Summer Memories. The story is nothing special, in fact it has a lot in common with the setup from Bones' Tales: The Manor: "Young man gets in house with 3 women, 2 young, 1 older, sexy time ensues".
But the unlocks are constant, you always have something new gameplay-wise to build towards with the currency you get, and by upgrading the character, you unlock new scenes because the way you get currency is through interaction with the family members.
Even without talking about the porn content itself (which I find excellent), the core gameplay loop is something you could release as a full indie game without the porn and I wouldn't bat an eye, it's very solid and well balanced with a variety of ways to progress.
That's not something I would say of The Manor unfortunately.
There's no decision making when you're grinding in this game, it's a very rigid set of things you have to do to raise the stats and that's it.
I'm sure the H-scenes in The Manor are good, but the game as a package I find lacking unfortunately.
And it's made worse by the fact that I have to wait so long to get to the H-scenes for no good reason (because nothing changes between my actions that raise Lust/Guilt/Trust, I'm just repeating the same think until it unlocks the new part, after which I'll repeat the process)
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- Jun 16, 2021
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but... but... the Manor has all new horse sounds now! checkmate! 
- Jun 16, 2021
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but now without kidding: the Manor has only one big sellingpoint: The Art. It is a cool and sexy artstyle.... and the Story COULD have some potential besides the cocky Shota creeping for his family. I am talking about Doyle. There is a huge potential of story to be unfold.... (yep.... and "sexy scenes" of Doyle and his female family members.... i know most of you are here for the i-word )
There are many oportunities to develop the story. But that won't happen. Once he start this people will demand more..... and by now we know the certain skeleton hates work. The grind is a way to simulate more content and extent the playing time.
)There are many oportunities to develop the story. But that won't happen. Once he start this people will demand more..... and by now we know the certain skeleton hates work. The grind is a way to simulate more content and extent the playing time.
That's the issue I'm seeing with a lot of games.but now without kidding: the Manor has only one big sellingpoint: The Art. It is a cool and sexy artstyle.... and the Story COULD have some potential besides the cocky Shota creeping for his family. I am talking about Doyle. There is a huge potential of story to be unfold.... (yep.... and "sexy scenes" of Doyle and his female family members.... i know most of you are here for the i-word
There are many oportunities to develop the story. But that won't happen. Once he start this people will demand more..... and by now we know the certain skeleton hates work. The grind is a way to simulate more content and extent the playing time.
The big one that comes in mind is Daily Lives of my Countryside.
The game has GORGEOUS artwork, seriously, it's insane, and incredible scenes already.
However... The game's structure is complete crap. It takes forever to unlock anything, the clues are convoluted and unintuitive, so in the end you're better off playing the scenes in the unlocked gallery than actually playing the game.
But instead of getting back to square one and completely re-designing the game to make a better gameplay experience, the developer keeps adding new characters, new scenes, new locations, etc. which the games has already a lot of.
That's not bad in itself, but it's such a shame to have all this amazing work go to waste on a game that's barely playable
BUT... That's what people want. That's what they are here for: the gorgeous porn. So the dev is giving people what they want, and that's cool ! But at this point just remove the gameplay from your game, or scale down a LOT so the experience gets smoother for people that just want to enjoy the porn.
- Apr 15, 2019
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Summer Memories is both a good and bad example. Gameplay wise, it's great. You get reward for doing the thing you want to do by unlocking more things to do. So even though it's a grind (and yes it IS a grind) it doesn't feel like one. But it's easy to do so because of the story. The main girls are already accepting of the MC it's simply a matter of how much they will let him get away with it. Hell you immediately get service scenes from the older sister and the mom knowingly let's you grind on her just in the tutorial/prologue, the girls have no resistance against him. As the original title of this game says, they are out to spoil you.
In this game, the MC has to trick/guilt trip/take advantage of curiosity to eventually lead on the girls into sexual acts because the girls have that resistance. There's definitely a way that he can make that grind more enjoyable, but the grind from a narrative perspective is 100% necessary. Personally, I would add in more to do that raises those stats as well as lowering the needed amount to unlock. To the point where just trying to see everything you can do with a specific girl will almost seamlessly unlock new things, thus making things flow better and players don't even realize they are grinding.
I agree on both points.
Games don't have to be grindy. And if you feel the grinding experience would add to your game, it doesn't need to be repetitive.
In the end what matters is the player's experience, and that's subjective.
But I don't think a lot of people would complain if The Manor had less repetitive tasks to do until the girls cave-in to the guilt/trick/lust.
It's just a matter of writing the scenes properly, not a matter of how long you repeated the exact same thing that somehow leads the character to take different actions after 5 days of doing nothing.
- Apr 15, 2019
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Umu, lowering the points needed, giving more points per action or adding new actions that give points would be extremely helpful. As I said, personally would go with the new actions because....who wouldn't want to see more?
Like I don't understand why the "spending the day with xxx" doesn't have scenes attached to it. Just a here's 5 points then fade to black. Easy way to cut down on the grindy feeling and it provides content, two birds one stand user.
- Feb 28, 2017
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I still think the grind is ok. What is lacking is more rewarding scenes, where you can feel or see some progress. I agree with that. A good example is something like a diary, where the girls write down all their kinky thoughts, where you can feel the inner fight they have. I always found that really nice. Or some spying scenes. Little progress scenes would be nice. But we all know, this will never happen. We still have not implemented scenes from the beginning and the work ethic... yeah just forget it
- Feb 2, 2018
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Why always tone down shit to the lowest common denominator? If you want to 'enjoy the porn', just watch porn or go to rule34 websites or whatever, there's literally tons of content that's easily consumable without gameplay getting in your way.
I enjoy the game as it is.
I just discovered that feature, and MY GOD does it make the game a whole lot more enjoyable to just be able to skip the tedious scene repeats.
Another game comes to mind when it comes to all the relationships taking time to get to the sexual parts (sister and mother included to): Summertime Saga
In this one no grind, you just have to complete the storylines and discover how to progress in them. Which to me is way more compelling than just repeating the same scenes to fill up an arbitrary gauge.
I argue for the exact opposite.
I want my porn games to also be good games, not just something I slog through to get to the porn.
But if I have the choice between a non-game with just porn scenes and a slog that takes ages to get anywhere with boring gameplay, I'd take the former, which is my entire point.
You either make your gameplay good, or you remove it to let people access the scenes easier because at this point that's all you are offering.
Some games manage to do both like Summer Memories, or MonsterGirlDreams (for the Ren'Py RPG genre), but those are the absolute minority of porn games.
You are the one settling for mediocrity here, not me
- Feb 2, 2018
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I'm not settling for anything, I see a bunch of artists creating what they want to create. If I like what they do, I give something to support them. Simple as that. But I sure as hell don't go to a website telling them how or what they should create (as long as they don't ask for it of course).
- Apr 15, 2019
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Gonna have to throw in my 2 cents even though you weren't talking directly to me. There's a highly distinct difference between telling someone how to do something and giving suggestions, but for some reason in recent times people can't seem to tell despite it being pretty obvious most of the time. But that's a different matter, what I really want to address is the final part where you say "as long as they don't ask for it".
You do realize (rhetorical, I know you don't) that a great majority of games or hell any creation is only around 70% or less the original ideas from a dev. A sizable chunk comes from outside suggestions/observations/etc that the devs usually don't see UNTIL it's been pointed out to them. And at least half of that 30+% was not at the request of the dev. In all honesty, if you consume a product and are unwilling to give your opinion without first being asked you are doing a great disservice to the dev you support. You could literally right now be sitting on an idea that would elevate that creator's work to a higher level that the person in question glossed over, but choose not to voice your ideas because they didn't ask? With the only negative reaction is they say "no."
That's not loyalty mate, that's just plain stupidity. It's as simp-le as that.
- Feb 2, 2018
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What you want is a product customized to average taste. I mostly want an artist's vision. If they're good they find their audience, if they fail they fail.
- Jun 16, 2021
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ummmmm...... the whole point of "spending the day with xxx" is, to get the points instant without the scenes. This is the BEST and most User friendly feature that game has..... and you don't understand it?
i give you the benefit of doubt and say: Nice Trolling
- Nov 8, 2017
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Summer Memories kinda suffers from this too, but then again at least once you've come to understand the mechanics you progress at a much better pace than how you've done on your first playthrough.
The real question is if this thread will reach 1000 pages before part C is released. I think we have a pretty good chance at it with how things are going currently