VN Ren'Py Chasing Sunsets [v0.9a] [Stone Fox Studios]

[v1900]

Oh man, but also some of the worst. This game is like a twisted Rorshach Test for sociopathy.

Shit, hate to have given you that impression. Just know that in a way you are right but not to that extreme. Before continuing I would just like to say something to Stone Fox Studios :

This is one of my favorite VNs and I think the development of the characters is some of the best around. Now that Jaye (who half of the posts here are about) is starting to develop I have to say that it is surprising how gradual and thought out it is.

Now, continuing with my point. I think that the way that the dev has written Jaye's character is so nuanced that me and a lot of users can not avoid making comparisons to her character and situations we have lived in real life. I also think that it is deliberate that Jaye is not that likable at the beginning, I have previously worded my opinion that Jaye was toxic in chapter one and some fellow members agreed. She is getting likable but is not all there yet (again that is good writing and pacing from the dev). The difficult part is wording those opinions in a way that is understandable (most often than not I fail miserably). Allow me to make an example related to the last few pages of the thread.

The latest discussion started from a post from felicemastronzo responding to Alfred the Fallen, in this post she stated, she did not like Jaye's testing the MC by bringing rape boy aboard. Then 1337Bob and I started to participate he made his point from an emotional standpoint and I made mine from a colder behavioral standpoint (which I believe was also Felice's). Both standpoints are valid but I believe the biggest problem is someone responding to a behavioral standpoint with an emotional standpoint because we come out as cold sociopath bastards. Even the wording may appear cold and accusatory.

When I stated that Jaye actions where manipulative it is just to state a behavior we all practice daily. Just consider the words manipulation and persuasion, in essence they describe the same action but persuasion implies that the outcome may be favorable to the person being messed with. Now consider that persuasion is intrinsically linked to the word rhetoric (rhetoric is the art of persuasion), thus implying the need of words for it to be persuasion. Going by the fact that there where no words exchanged between the characters to explain the "test"/plan it squarely falls in the realm of manipulation. Now, this word has a negative connotation that should not exist just by the nature of it's definition.

Returning to the point about it being similar to what we experience in real life. We do not contend that Jaye loves the MC but we do find her behavior annoying. I will assume you have had experience working with teams being at school, college or at work. Most likely you have worked with someone that instead of wording a concrete opinion, grievance, etc., incites another teammate to word it or this person may try to use a teammate against you. Jaye did something similar, not as wicked but is a similar if not the same technique.

So another problem is how to word an analysis of said action in a way that it is not perceived as sociopathic when there is a mix up between two different standpoints (emotional vs behavioral). I will speak for myself by stating that I do tend to sound a bit sociopathic because:

• I am not a native speaker and at times I word my arguments strangely and I tend to use words tainted by my culture.
• I did not have a normal childhood.

So I will try to word my posts more carefully.

 

[Naxos]

Mate I will suggest you play again the airport scene and you will see that the fight or flight statement (I know it is made by the narrator) is incongruous with Jaye being scared of rape boy. It appears to be in reference of the legal situation based on the chronology of the dialogue it is also stated by the narrator before that "then inspiration strikes" (so she appears to be cool-headed) and the whole scene Jaye has a grin on her face. Then at the yacht, deny beating rape boy and you will see that Jaye is the least scared of him (she herself beats him easily). It is more like what 1337Bob said, it appears to be some test to validate her own logic.

Of course she has a grin.

She gets some payback on Christian, and lets him get the beating he's deserved and gets do over to make things right with her brother.

She admits later that he terrifies her.

As for easily beating him on her own, that's easily explained by rage at Christian and her brother for just walking away, or simple confidence knowing he has her back.

I think some posters are still so stuck on Jaye hate they can't see anything but that. If she jumped in front of a literal bullet they'd find a way to spin it as manipulation.

I've gone from supporting the mc and hating Jaye, to hating the Mc and supporting Jaye, to a now balanced supporting them both. I even had to restart halfway this to rename my mc.

 

[Deleted member 207916]

Images that are hard to look at

View attachment 1204921 View attachment 1204923

Not so hard given how much trouble Jaye gave to MC. In fact it's quite understandable. Well done!

 

[Real Kreten]

I see Jay's behavior as a reasoned solution to the problem. Jaye has a weakness in dealing with Christian that prevents her from sending him off. Jaye wasn't able to get rid of him then, and she was stuck with worries now.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Jaye knows someone who was able to make sure Christian left her alone. He's someone who's causing great concern in Christian for a change.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I see her behavior more as a defensive mechanism with everything else as a bonus. After all, the first thing Jaye do is that she walks up to MC and stands with him. If it was a test, she'd stand on side.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

No wonder, that some have trouble looking at her actions in a positive light. Dev went to great lengths to create tension between the player and Jaye in Ep.1 (0.2), especially with cliffhanger. But whoever are open to mending the relationship between MC and Jaye, will be very well rewarded. Whoever stuck in anger will miss a lot and whoever skip or ignore whole tension will get only half of experience.

 

[v1900]

Of course she has a grin.

She gets some payback on Christian, and lets him get the beating he's deserved and gets do over to make things right with her brother.

She admits later that he terrifies her.

As for easily beating him on her own, that's easily explained by rage at Christian and her brother for just walking away, or simple confidence knowing he has her back.

I think some posters are still so stuck on Jaye hate they can't see anything but that. If she jumped in front of a literal bullet they'd find a way to spin it as manipulation.

I've gone from supporting the mc and hating Jaye, to hating the Mc and supporting Jaye, to a now balanced supporting them both. I even had to restart halfway this to rename my mc.

Hey Naxos I would ask that you read the post above yours to clarify the use of the word manipulation as not being inherently negative as you think I implied (it is just a description of an action that is common amongst us). Also imagine the whole scene without the fight or flight statement (just humor me and do it) going by the dialogue and facial expressions it turns out to be incongruous or strange that we could assume she feels threatened in a public space but she concocts a plan that involves her being alone in a helicopter with rape boy (I am not saying she is good or bad, I am just stating facts). Now I do not know why the dev decided to include the fight or flight statement as it does not mesh with the facts of the scene.

On your payback point, the MC already had his revenge the night he left, the point we were making was that it was unnecessary to put the MC in such position as to be forced to beat him again because that was what Jaye wanted for the MC to have a better relation with her. Allow me to make an example you might think is totally different. There are women that like to insult people and then hide behind their husbands or boyfriends cornering them into a fight or an apology (if it is an apology it is considered as a bad outcome by the woman). Now Jaye's reasons and rationale are totally different but if you consider the mechanics of the interaction you may start to see where we are coming from.

 

[Naxos]

No wonder, that some have trouble looking at her actions in a positive light. Dev went to great lengths to create tension between the player and Jaye in Ep.1 (0.2), especially with cliffhanger.

I know it was done for the purposes of the cliffhanger, but George is at the top of my shitlist now, knowing Christian was on board and not telling the mc. As I say I get it's done for story drama reasons. But that combined with him blind siding them with miss manipulative coming along to the will reading and not explaining why.. he's the true villain we should all be railing against.

 

[Naxos]

Hey Naxos I would ask that you read the post above yours to clarify the use of the word manipulation as not being inherently negative as you think I implied (it is just a description of an action that is common amongst us). Also imagine the whole scene without the fight or flight statement (just humor me and do it) going by the dialogue and facial expressions it turns out to be incongruous or strange that we could assume she feels threatened in a public space but she concocts a plan that involves her being alone in a helicopter with rape boy (I am not saying she is good or bad, I am just stating facts). Now I do not know why the dev decided to include the fight or flight statement as it does not mesh with the facts of the scene.

On your payback point, the MC already had his revenge the night he left, the point we were making was that it was unnecessary to put the MC in such position as to be forced to beat him again because that was what Jaye wanted for the MC to have a better relation with her. Allow me to make an example you might think is totally different. There are women that like to insult people and then hide behind their husbands or boyfriends cornering them into a fight or an apology (if it is an apology it is considered as a bad outcome by the woman). Now Jaye's reasons and rationale are totally different but if you consider the mechanics of the interaction you may start to see where we are coming from.

We have very different outlooks on Jaye.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[v1900]

I know it was done for the purposes of the cliffhanger, but George is at the top of my shitlist now, knowing Christian was on board and not telling the mc. As I say I get it's done for story drama reasons. But that combined with him blind siding them with miss manipulative coming along to the will reading and not explaining why.. he's the true villain we should all be railing against.

Right?!?! I do not know if it is just a plot device or he enjoys setting up shit for the lulz.

 

[Deleted member 2412505]

I know it was done for the purposes of the cliffhanger, but George is at the top of my shitlist now, knowing Christian was on board and not telling the mc. As I say I get it's done for story drama reasons. But that combined with him blind siding them with miss manipulative coming along to the will reading and not explaining why.. he's the true villain we should all be railing against.

Maybe Jaye told him not to tell mc or maybe he also wanted to see if mc would still defend Jaye and wanted to see what would he do just like Jaye?

 

[1337Bob]

I know it was done for the purposes of the cliffhanger, but George is at the top of my shitlist now, knowing Christian was on board and not telling the mc. As I say I get it's done for story drama reasons. But that combined with him blind siding them with miss manipulative coming along to the will reading and not explaining why.. he's the true villain we should all be railing against.

It's pretty apparent that unlike Jaye, George is genuinely testing MC and Jaye. The whole inheritance thing is basically one big game to prove themselves worthy, under the direction of the will of the parents. George is playing the role of gamemaster. It's explicitly stated at the end of the chapter.

 

[1337Bob]

I'm not sure why there has to be an either/or when it comes to Jaye "testing" MC, or genuinely wanting the comfort and protection of MC. There can easily be elements of both.

Testing in this sense doesn't mean a conscious deliberate test by Jaye. You might just as easily describe it as a cry for help - Jaye genuinely wanting to know if the love is still there. The pieces coincidently fell into place, Christian being there. It was an opportunity to relive the night of the graduation, and to right past wrongs.

 

[Naxos]

It's pretty apparent that unlike Jaye, George is genuinely testing MC and Jaye. The whole inheritance thing is basically one big game to prove themselves worthy, under the direction of the will of the parents. George is playing the role of gamemaster. It's explicitly stated at the end of the chapter.

Yeah i get that, but I think he can do that without lying or withholding info. The main test is if they can work together and over come their differences.

Personally I truly hate people who lie or withhold info. One of the story mechanics used so often is someone starting to tell the MC something and either stopping on their own and changing their mind or being interrupted by something or someone, usually not returning to the topic for another 2 or 3 updates. Every time that happens, that person's character takes a massive hit in my eyes. George has taken that hit.

 

[Terminator_26F]

George is perfectly in his role as manager of parents' last wishes. And he's right to test the MC and Jaye, even at the risk of lying or hiding certain facts. He wants to be sure (as much as he can be) that the two heirs have, not only the mind and the capacities to manage a big company but also and especially if they are able to change their mutual behavior to do it together as their parents would have liked.

 

[Mortarion]

Yeah i get that, but I think he can do that without lying or withholding info. The main test is if they can work together and over come their differences.

My last playthrough is a while back so i may be wrong, but afar wasn't it made clear that either Jaye or Alex would run the company, not both together??

 

[DavDR]

Yeah i get that, but I think he can do that without lying or withholding info. The main test is if they can work together and over come their differences.

Personally I truly hate people who lie or withhold info. One of the story mechanics used so often is someone starting to tell the MC something and either stopping on their own and changing their mind or being interrupted by something or someone, usually not returning to the topic for another 2 or 3 updates. Every time that happens, that person's character takes a massive hit in my eyes. George has taken that hit.

The important thing to remember about George is that while I think he has a strong personal affection for Alex and Jaye, he is not their attorney, he is their parents attorney. This is a very important distinction for lawyers and is something that is clearly defined in their professional codes.

 

[Terminator_26F]

The important thing to remember about George is that while I think he has a strong personal affection for Alex and Jaye, he is not their attorney, he is their parents attorney. This is a very important distinction for lawyers and is something that is clearly defined in their professional codes.

Completely agree. This is why George does everything he can so that the two mule heads finally get along, both for business and for love, and thus respect their parents' wishes.

 

[Alfred the Fallen]

Honestly, I don't understand why some people so strongly dislike Jaye.

The single biggest issue that I have with Jaye is the fact that she is the writer's pet. Any time a game has multiple romance options, and then pushes one of them much harder than all of the others, I'm almost certainly going to resent them for it. The harder the game pushes her on me, the more annoyed I get. And the more annoyed I am with her, the more noticeable her faults become.

When I played The Witcher 3, I didn't like Yennifer or Triss. But I didn't hate them, because we were allowed to choose to not be in love with them (after a while at least). I was 110% done with Yennifer after she threw Geralt into a lake via a portal (which he notoriously hates), but I still didn't hate her after that, because the game was allowing me to push back against Yennifer (which was the trigger for her to lose her temper and teleport Geralt away). As for Triss, I mostly just resented her because I had chosen Shani over Triss, and the second game didn't give a damn about that. I also thought that it was wrong for Triss to take advantage of Geralt's memory loss, but I still didn't hate her in the third game because we were allowed to distance ourselves from her in a very reasonable manner. We don't get that here in this game.

Here, we are either bitterly angry with Jaye or fawning over her with constant reassurances that she shouldn't blame herself for anything. There's very little middle ground here, and the game heavily pushes you towards Jaye. I'd be happy with them being cordial or professional, but I have zero romantic or sexual interest in her at this point.

I understand that kids are stupid and do stupid things for stupid reasons, so I don't have a problem with forgiving her for the stuff she did as a kid. Or at least I wouldn't if not for the fact that, even after five years apart, Jaye is still pulling the same old childish bullshit she always has. The small things she does are made extra annoying because we aren't allowed to challenge her on them at any point in time. One example is the locked phone fiasco.

I wanted the choice to have the main character ask Jaye why didn't she call him if she wanted to talk instead of keeping her phone under her pillow and getting increasingly angry at him for not calling her. Just to see if she understands that she has a bad habit of creating drama out of nothing. But we can't do stuff like that, which makes it seem like testing Jaye is off limits, and that irks me because she's very clearly testing him when she asks if he ever had sex with Tara. Since the game has double standards when dealing with the two, it makes their potential relationship look unfair and unhealthy.

Another example is when Jaye makes a joke about the main character reading her diary as a child. The main character takes it in stride and laughs at it, but we aren't allowed to do the same thing to Jaye. We had the perfect set up when they were talking about how Jaye was hurt that he wasn't there for her graduation. When she jokingly says "I'd have been super pissed if you were at a free concert in Mongolia", the main character should've responded with "Or missing your big day to sneak off on a date with someone?". But nope. Can't do that. That would be mean because it's poking fun of Jaye and that's not allowed. Only she can poke fun of him, not the other way around.

Likewise, we are supposed to run everything past Jaye to get her approval (like agreeing to meet with Mallory) but she doesn't have to clear things with us (like inviting Christian on board). These are all very small things on their own, but they keep adding up as the game goes on. And then we get the biggest event of the recent update, her secretly reading his journal.

Jaye knows exactly how big of an invasion of privacy this is, not only because he just told her not to do it, but because it happened to her as a child. But she does it anyways, which shows that she doesn't respect the main character enough to care about his privacy or his wants. She's supposed to be reconciling with her estranged brother, not repeating the same mistakes they made ten years ago. And she knows this. She even told her brother that "We won't get anywhere if all we do is pick at old wounds", yet she just can't control herself. She's still acting like a child, even though she's an adult who is supposed to be getting ready to take over a multi billion dollar company in the middle of a huge lawsuit.

So at this point I'm 110% done with Jaye. That was her portal to a lake moment, and I'm in need of a genie to grant me freedom from this maladjusted witch.

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

The single biggest issue that I have with Jaye is the fact that she is the writer's pet. Any time a game has multiple romance options, and then pushes one of them much harder than all of the others, I'm almost certainly going to resent them for it. The harder the game pushes her on me, the more annoyed I get. And the more annoyed I am with her, the more noticeable her faults become.

When I played The Witcher 3, I didn't like Yennifer or Triss. But I didn't hate them, because we were allowed to choose to not be in love with them (after a while at least). I was 110% done with Yennifer after she threw Geralt into a lake via a portal (which he notoriously hates), but I still didn't hate her after that, because the game was allowing me to push back against Yennifer (which was the trigger for her to lose her temper and teleport Geralt away). As for Triss, I mostly just resented her because I had chosen Shani over Triss, and the second game didn't give a damn about that. I also thought that it was wrong for Triss to take advantage of Geralt's memory loss, but I still didn't hate her in the third game because we were allowed to distance ourselves from her in a very reasonable manner. We don't get that here in this game.

Here, we are either bitterly angry with Jaye or fawning over her with constant reassurances that she shouldn't blame herself for anything. There's very little middle ground here, and the game heavily pushes you towards Jaye. I'd be happy with them being cordial or professional, but I have zero romantic or sexual interest in her at this point.

I understand that kids are stupid and do stupid things for stupid reasons, so I don't have a problem with forgiving her for the stuff she did as a kid. Or at least I wouldn't if not for the fact that, even after five years apart, Jaye is still pulling the same old childish bullshit she always has. The small things she does are made extra annoying because we aren't allowed to challenge her on them at any point in time. One example is the locked phone fiasco.

I wanted the choice to have the main character ask Jaye why didn't she call him if she wanted to talk instead of keeping her phone under her pillow and getting increasingly angry at him for not calling her. Just to see if she understands that she has a bad habit of creating drama out of nothing. But we can't do stuff like that, which makes it seem like testing Jaye is off limits, and that irks me because she's very clearly testing him when she asks if he ever had sex with Tara. Since the game has double standards when dealing with the two, it makes their potential relationship look unfair and unhealthy.

Another example is when Jaye makes a joke about the main character reading her diary as a child. The main character takes it in stride and laughs at it, but we aren't allowed to do the same thing to Jaye. We had the perfect set up when they were talking about how Jaye was hurt that he wasn't there for her graduation. When she jokingly says "I'd have been super pissed if you were at a free concert in Mongolia", the main character should've responded with "Or missing your big day to sneak off on a date with someone?". But nope. Can't do that. That would be mean because it's poking fun of Jaye and that's not allowed. Only she can poke fun of him, not the other way around.

Likewise, we are supposed to run everything past Jaye to get her approval (like agreeing to meet with Mallory) but she doesn't have to clear things with us (like inviting Christian on board). These are all very small things on their own, but they keep adding up as the game goes on. And then we get the biggest event of the recent update, her secretly reading his journal.

Jaye knows exactly how big of an invasion of privacy this is, not only because he just told her not to do it, but because it happened to her as a child. But she does it anyways, which shows that she doesn't respect the main character enough to care about his privacy or his wants. She's supposed to be reconciling with her estranged brother, not repeating the same mistakes they made ten years ago. And she knows this. She even told her brother that "We won't get anywhere if all we do is pick at old wounds", yet she just can't control herself. She's still acting like a child, even though she's an adult who is supposed to be getting ready to take over a multi billion dollar company in the middle of a huge lawsuit.

So at this point I'm 110% done with Jaye. That was her portal to a lake moment, and I'm in need of a genie to grant me freedom from this maladjusted witch.

Well I always thought that Jaye is the true main character of this game and not the man we play as. Similar to Haley's story where Haley is the main character. the difference is that i like Haley 100 times more.

 

[felicemastronzo]

The single biggest issue that I have with Jaye is the fact that she is the writer's pet. Any time a game has multiple romance options, and then pushes one of them much harder than all of the others, I'm almost certainly going to resent them for it. The harder the game pushes her on me, the more annoyed I get. And the more annoyed I am with her, the more noticeable her faults become.

When I played The Witcher 3, I didn't like Yennifer or Triss. But I didn't hate them, because we were allowed to choose to not be in love with them (after a while at least). I was 110% done with Yennifer after she threw Geralt into a lake via a portal (which he notoriously hates), but I still didn't hate her after that, because the game was allowing me to push back against Yennifer (which was the trigger for her to lose her temper and teleport Geralt away). As for Triss, I mostly just resented her because I had chosen Shani over Triss, and the second game didn't give a damn about that. I also thought that it was wrong for Triss to take advantage of Geralt's memory loss, but I still didn't hate her in the third game because we were allowed to distance ourselves from her in a very reasonable manner. We don't get that here in this game.

Here, we are either bitterly angry with Jaye or fawning over her with constant reassurances that she shouldn't blame herself for anything. There's very little middle ground here, and the game heavily pushes you towards Jaye. I'd be happy with them being cordial or professional, but I have zero romantic or sexual interest in her at this point.

I understand that kids are stupid and do stupid things for stupid reasons, so I don't have a problem with forgiving her for the stuff she did as a kid. Or at least I wouldn't if not for the fact that, even after five years apart, Jaye is still pulling the same old childish bullshit she always has. The small things she does are made extra annoying because we aren't allowed to challenge her on them at any point in time. One example is the locked phone fiasco.

I wanted the choice to have the main character ask Jaye why didn't she call him if she wanted to talk instead of keeping her phone under her pillow and getting increasingly angry at him for not calling her. Just to see if she understands that she has a bad habit of creating drama out of nothing. But we can't do stuff like that, which makes it seem like testing Jaye is off limits, and that irks me because she's very clearly testing him when she asks if he ever had sex with Tara. Since the game has double standards when dealing with the two, it makes their potential relationship look unfair and unhealthy.

Another example is when Jaye makes a joke about the main character reading her diary as a child. The main character takes it in stride and laughs at it, but we aren't allowed to do the same thing to Jaye. We had the perfect set up when they were talking about how Jaye was hurt that he wasn't there for her graduation. When she jokingly says "I'd have been super pissed if you were at a free concert in Mongolia", the main character should've responded with "Or missing your big day to sneak off on a date with someone?". But nope. Can't do that. That would be mean because it's poking fun of Jaye and that's not allowed. Only she can poke fun of him, not the other way around.

Likewise, we are supposed to run everything past Jaye to get her approval (like agreeing to meet with Mallory) but she doesn't have to clear things with us (like inviting Christian on board). These are all very small things on their own, but they keep adding up as the game goes on. And then we get the biggest event of the recent update, her secretly reading his journal.

Jaye knows exactly how big of an invasion of privacy this is, not only because he just told her not to do it, but because it happened to her as a child. But she does it anyways, which shows that she doesn't respect the main character enough to care about his privacy or his wants. She's supposed to be reconciling with her estranged brother, not repeating the same mistakes they made ten years ago. And she knows this. She even told her brother that "We won't get anywhere if all we do is pick at old wounds", yet she just can't control herself. She's still acting like a child, even though she's an adult who is supposed to be getting ready to take over a multi billion dollar company in the middle of a huge lawsuit.

So at this point I'm 110% done with Jaye. That was her portal to a lake moment, and I'm in need of a genie to grant me freedom from this maladjusted witch.

it's all a bit forced for dramatic effect, but Jaye doesn't call because she's waiting to be called (then she blocked the number and that's it) and since she doesn't get called she decides not to call (until the mourning)

in the example you give about absence at important moments in both their lives, Jaye's is a joke about a fairly obvious extravagance, MC's counterpart would have been joking about the day Jaye was almost raped... it seems to me to be a reaction a little out of proportion

also the question of the diary doesn't have the same weight, it's true that it's the same gesture, but done to a teenager and to an adult they have a different weight, then MC wanted to know something that she didn't want him to know, Jaye only anticipates the times in discovering something that either Mc or Tara would have told her anyway

then absolutely everything that happens after the exchange of questions is in any case justified, from that moment they know they love each other, on what level we will see

all this does not remove my doubts on the question of the test with Christian, unplanned, so to speak of manipulation is exaggerated, but intentional

 

[Shyguy1369]

The single biggest issue that I have with Jaye is the fact that she is the writer's pet. Any time a game has multiple romance options, and then pushes one of them much harder than all of the others, I'm almost certainly going to resent them for it. The harder the game pushes her on me, the more annoyed I get. And the more annoyed I am with her, the more noticeable her faults become.

Have to disagree with this assessment based on personal knowledge. There are two points of view going into this. One is a massive Jaye fan yes, but the other is a massive Mallory fan. So we had a Jaye heavy update this time, but Mallory will get her due.
Again, you be done with Jaye, that's fine. Just means more of her for me