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Nightclaw

Newbie
Jan 12, 2018
22
12
First off, I want to thank Kalloi for the challenge as this is the first release I did more than play around for a few loops vignette hunting, and I've been following/playing this game each month since the release before Temptation was added (whenever that was).

To preface this, I've uploaded my save at the start of Loop 18 although I have no doubts I'll clear that as the choices are easier than Loop 17 for some reason. Maybe their pre-existing breaks will complicate matters but otherwise seems easy enough. 'Trainer Faith' is my custom chosen, which is near identical to SuperSkippy's custom in terms of punisher perks but I really only got use out of the trauma boost. Motivation was never a concern for me, for various reasons.

L18 City Choice.png

Items.png
Of my items, I'd say there were 3 that stood out:

- Thesis: I could be lazy with motivation, as any damage they would take would eventually tick back up in the background.
- Propaganda: Partially to skip-complete T3s moves, in particular Enervate... Although it was funny seeing how high that would tick up on some loops. The other really useful part of this item is the burst trauma gain, which happens during the day so all chosen suddenly take a LOT more damage when it triggers. At least, it felt like they did.
- Lyrics: Although I don't go for Rampancy that often, I don't want to go back to a world without this item. The ability to turn off rampancy solves the primary problem with the distortion, perhaps a little too well honestly. No longer will you need to keep a close eye on circ levels or will the main orgy fail because their HATE ticked up faster in the 'setup' orgy.

As for my run, I don't think my progression is all that exciting. This is the first time I've attempted to play around with forsaken long-term and after a few experiments I got stuck in my ways with using one of the 3 below: After loop 5 I never saw a need to use commanders.

Forsaken 1.png
This was my go-to Forsaken for pretty much everything but very specific needs (IE the first days of the loop until all 3 chosen were about and some initial, stubborn and/or lazy orgy days). She cost 3 EE, 3.9% motivation and always gained stamina each deployment unless I was impatient and swatted a flying chosen for a T4 break, so she could be thrown out endlessly. I certainly could have trained her more/better, but juggling all 3 expertises (and keeping the combat style) became too fiddly when she would already do whatever I asked of her.

Forsaken 2.png Forsaken 3.png
My other forsaken of note: Chimera is there to stall the early game and Sekhmet is there for orgies. In hindsight, I let Sekhmet become too cheap (she costs 24 EE). She does decent enough damage, but her trauma-increase punisher perk is quite slow and there are times where more effort is required to do her job.

I'll have some other thoughts as I think of them, but one very interesting thing I noticed was when I was testing the 'return-for-revenge' function and let a Negotiated chosen flee: When she returned, she was distorted and able to be negotiated with AND even gave 1G angst to everyone to simulate what would have been required to achieve that. Of course, the disadvantage of pre-existing breaks likely outweighed the advantages but it was interesting to see.

For me personally, I find Undead the easiest chosen type to deal with by far. Their lack of damage mitigation just makes things so much easier, and their moves are controllable for the most part. Perhaps that opinion would change if I didn't have Propaganda, but they still weren't more of an issue than the equivalent Superior moves.

Also, this was my alt choice for Loop 17. I didn't go for it, as I wanted the other item (and then promptly forgot about it for almost all of Loop 17...), but this is the highest I've ever seen Luxuries get.

Loop 17 Alt.png
 
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SuperSkippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
136
I may be running out of creativity for all the useless forsaken I keep getting:
1679717966757.png
1679718024233.png

Anyway, hello from Loop 19, where all the choices are bad. I may be able to beat this loop if I'm willing to deal with doing full T4 breaks on 2 Undead, but this is where I'm at for now. The top option seemed easier to me, but now that I'm in it, I don't see how to win. Nightclaw, if you beat Loop 18 as you're expecting, this will mean that we are tied.


Hey, I think I have found may way through city #2, Hiroshima. Also, the fact that my highest Luxuries matches yours, Nightclaw, indicates that this might be a maximum level of Luxuries in the same way that day 20 seems to be the highest level of Preparedness and I think 50% is the highest level of Damage Mitigation.
1679720075750.png

The trouble with both of these cities is that the multiplier on Trauma resolution also serves as a multiplier on how much trauma you need for the next level. I spent all my early-loop resources to achieve a 5-turn Orgy and only got 2EE per Chosen:
1679749659110.png
But, in the top city, I'm losing 2EE per turn, so I have no idea how to claw back enough EE to get the tools I use for T3 breaks (Nursery Hives, Human Collaborators, and Networked Consciousness) before I'm down to not gaining any EE at all.

Anyway, neat run! Items were a lot better, Forsaken were notably not as good. Here's my backpack:
1679749973321.png
1679749996963.png

While Crown's Pantsu made the final battles far quicker, I don't think it actually made me get any further. 2 uses of Threaten instead of 4 and I didn't have to use any Commander/Forsaken for the loops after it, but there wasn't a battle I couldn't have won easily without it.

Resonance was absolutely standout here for generating T3 breaks.

Some notable Forsaken:
1679750107268.png
She's the best of my <5EE, but they all look similar. At that Disgrace, she costs 2EE, and with Tempt she can break right throguh an INN core and set them up for a follow-up. Others costed 3 and 4 to break MOR and EXPO, and I never got a low-level one for INJU since I had an item for that. On the other two I left the single-stat Defiler that breaks T2s. She's also a replacement for one I got after the first fight--hence V 2.0.

I like to have exactly one Rampant Chosen, and here she is:
1679751198743.png
She's notable for storing EE when fighting Undead, for often being able to get non-Core MOR/DIG breaks without the assistance of the other weak Chosen, and for growing every loop as I feed all the unused EE to her at the end. At a natural cost of 4EE, she was easy to use in the beginning of loops as well, but not very much in the midgame. Here's her breaking her Tiktok filter word kayfabe:
1679758773593.png

A really important thing is to able to set up an Orgy quickly. I had two Forsaken for that purpose:
1679752123452.png
Hers is useful because blasting up Hate doesn't cause normal and Superior Chosen to explode, giving me a bit more flexibility. Her cost was fine at 21EE.

But, sometimes, you do need them to explode. So, you call an appropriately-named Forsaken.
1679752253835.png
I am a simple man with unrefined tastes, I suppose. At 45EE cost, "I've heard Big Assplodey is no joke!"

She came with a hanger-on, though:
1679752599777.png

Of course there were various other Forsaken that I kept around because they gave big bonuses (some referenced above), but I was always waiting for the perfect Forsaken to use them on because switching around my Positions in the middle of a loop is such a pain. And a ton were thrown away.

I cleaned this saves.sav up as much as I could. It's definitely got at least one snapshot in every loop, usually 2.

CSdev
A few bugs showed up--I had some Aversion Undead that I wanted to reprogram but couldn't (I understand this is fixed in upcoming version). I had some game-crashing Negotiation bugs as well that I reported earlier in the thread. Despite the Level 5 Residual Energy Achievement saying it needs 60 sacrifices, I got it to trigger at 40 (including extra value for different species)--not sure what the intended behavior is.
I do like the ability to retry fights, but I often have to navigate back to loading because at the start of the fight, two important decisions have already been made: which Chosen I'm targeting, and (in the case of a base Commander, which happens less and less) which move I'm starting with. I've often also spent EE in ways that I thought would work but ended up not working. I, personally, would rather have a button that restarts the whole day, rather than a button that restarts just the fight, if you're taking suggestions.

To continue our earlier discussion:
The use case for Showy Publicist is supposed to be when you have one Chosen who's heavily corrupted, but another Chosen is much tougher (because she's an advanced species, for example). This will only become more relevant as the lategame species come out. That said, it probably should scale better with higher EE cost - a 55G ANGST bonus costs well over ten times the EE that a 10G ANGST bonus does, which really doesn't make sense. I was just hesitant to add non-linear scaling when pretty much all the other bonuses are linear.

So the use case is:
1) I've got a Chosen that I've managed to raise to 100M, 1G, 10G, or 100G SHAM.
2) I've done that through only Defiler+ actions (It'd be really hard to get this done through ordinary Defilers, and an Orgy would bring them all up around this threshold).
3) I've got a chosen whose ANGST just won't go up.
Even in such a system, all ANGST brings out is extra damage and a higher EE downtime action. I'm fairly sure you're planning for that, but it seems to me that what I'd need in this situation would be more Trauma to allow a T3 break, not just Angst. But, again, I don't have all the mechanics here so I'm probably missing the point.

Things I noticed this time that I didn't before:
A Total Vulnerability Break overrides a usage of Explode, if the Chosen would Explode normally that turn.
I think I've got a better sense of when Animalistic Chosen use specific moves. Single-damage Forsaken that can Release (Superior or better) are great for this--if you've got a Chosen that's got a priority on one move, they'll often use it again after a Capture/Release.
An Unbreakable Friendship isn't, if there are still breaks left that relate the two Chosen. I can be less cautious about T1/T2 breaks than I have in the past because T3/T4 breaks can give me what I need, generally.
In loops with 2 Undead, I'd generally like to find a Distortion for both of them that doesn't fully break DIG.
 
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Nightclaw

Newbie
Jan 12, 2018
22
12
One thing I immediately found out on Day 1 of Loop 18: If a chosen happens to show up with pre-breaks to enable Negotiation you don't get the free angst bomb from Propaganda. Which is understandable but still made me chuckle.
 
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Nightclaw

Newbie
Jan 12, 2018
22
12
Well, my Loop 19 choice is interesting:

L19 City Choice.png

City 2 could be doable, with a Rampancy for EE generation, but that's quite the lack of damage even with a low city value.
 
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SuperSkippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
136
It seems we're racing today, so:

Let's have the first city I've seen where damage mitigation means your damage goes DOWN for a x2 multiplier.

Loop 21:
1679785725234.png
 
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Nightclaw

Newbie
Jan 12, 2018
22
12
I'm not exactly happy with my Loop 19 "win", as I was getting sleepy and skipped a bunch of days to end it quicker (and one chosen got to run away) so I'll probably go back and fix that later but for now my Loop 20 choices:

L20 Cities.png
City 1 seems quite doable with my underestimation of Undead chosen's danger. City 2 is quite similar to your Kobe, which illustrates the difficulty ramp a bit.
 
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Nightclaw

Newbie
Jan 12, 2018
22
12
Loop 21:

L21 Cities.png

The luxuries of City 2 seemed scary and I rarely get above 2 EE each for passive income, but with its item allowing scaling of PLEA without extra mitigation and the overall low mitigation of the city itself, it has proven quite manageable with the usual combo of early Propaganda angst-bombs and Resonance keeping things up.

I'm currently on Day 10 and mostly killing time whilst I wait for T4 breaks and further rivalries to trigger for the EE to buy Antipathy.
 
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SuperSkippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
136
Loop 22:

1679868330022.png

I'm going to give City 2 another go while being more careful with my EE. Last attempt stalled out before I could afford Level 3 Breaks, but I think it still may be possible if I sync up the Animalistics and do breaks in an exact sequence to maximize EE.

Edit: Nope, not enough days. City 1 it is.
 
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Nightclaw

Newbie
Jan 12, 2018
22
12
Loop 22:

L22 Cities.png

City 1 seems doable enough. One thing I was pondering with these 20 day runs: Should the Undead EE siphon ramp up faster? With so few days, it never gets to scale enough to be noticeable/annoying.

Also, can you ever get 3 of the same elite in campaign mode? 3 Undead wouldn't be so bad, but 3 Animalistic would be a nightmare unless you could sync up at least 2 on the right day early.
 
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SuperSkippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
136
Here's loop 23, lol:
1679892481114.png

That Barrier Jammer looks nice, and its city might be doable, but it's up against 40EE in the early game.

Also Loop 22 is the first time I've let a Chosen escape so far. She was Impregnated so based on the vignette she won't be showing up again.
 
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Nightclaw

Newbie
Jan 12, 2018
22
12
I remember passing up the Astrolabe early on in my run, since it didn't seem too useful to me. I buy those upgrades when things have been stabilized and I have a lot of EE from breaks/distortions. Dominance is handy to get Network a little quicker, but the others I've found are 'win-more' upgrades. Maybe I'd think differently if I was using Commanders.

I also passed up the 3 EE tier version, although I'm beginning to regret that decision as it would really help out the early game with cheaper evac/ext increases when EE is tight. Can't remember what the alt item was though, so it may have been unavoidable.

I presume it's intended, but returning chosen seem like a much bigger hindrance in these quick loops. Yes, they're pre-broken which means easier damage but you lose out on a lot of early EE from breaks/rivalries (if you broke cores). I haven't tested with a returning Tempted/Rampaging chosen, so I'm curious if you lose access to the initial 100 EE hit for starting the distortion path.
 
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FantastiX

Newbie
Apr 4, 2018
29
16
Hello. I'm a total noob in this game. So, I have a simple question. What's the purpose of Observe action? Does it influence the Chosens in some way? All I see for now (I'm at 10th day, 1st loop) is that they get some trauma and circumstance damage, but it doesn't seem to be preserved for the next battle. Or maybe I'm wrong and it is? Anyways, would appreciate some clarification.
Or maybe there is some guide I could read? More detailed than text files in the game directory.
 

zargal

Newbie
Aug 5, 2018
42
80
Hello. I'm a total noob in this game. So, I have a simple question. What's the purpose of Observe action? Does it influence the Chosens in some way? All I see for now (I'm at 10th day, 1st loop) is that they get some trauma and circumstance damage, but it doesn't seem to be preserved for the next battle. Or maybe I'm wrong and it is? Anyways, would appreciate some clarification.
Or maybe there is some guide I could read? More detailed than text files in the game directory.
It's just flavour with no mechanical effects. The only gameplay effect those interactions have is if you go for a negotiation distortion. Good luck with learning the game!
 
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SuperSkippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
136
I remember passing up the Astrolabe early on in my run, since it didn't seem too useful to me. I buy those upgrades when things have been stabilized and I have a lot of EE from breaks/distortions. Dominance is handy to get Network a little quicker, but the others I've found are 'win-more' upgrades. Maybe I'd think differently if I was using Commanders.

I also passed up the 3 EE tier version, although I'm beginning to regret that decision as it would really help out the early game with cheaper evac/ext increases when EE is tight. Can't remember what the alt item was though, so it may have been unavoidable.

I presume it's intended, but returning chosen seem like a much bigger hindrance in these quick loops. Yes, they're pre-broken which means easier damage but you lose out on a lot of early EE from breaks/rivalries (if you broke cores). I haven't tested with a returning Tempted/Rampaging chosen, so I'm curious if you lose access to the initial 100 EE hit for starting the distortion path.
For me, the EE from breaks is the only real source of energy in my runs at this level. I need to get Nursery Hives and Human Collaborators to get an 8-10 turn Orgy that breaks at least one Core T3 or my loop stalls out. Then I need to break associated T4s to get Networked Consciousness, Soul Resonance, and Passion Release, and EE for one of my larger Commanders, as soon as possible to get a >15 turn Orgy and break as many more T3s as I can or I'll never be able to afford the basic attack+ I need (usually Threaten+). Last run was the first time I couldn't afford Antipathy, so that's why one of them got away, and I'd have lost right there without Crown's Pantsu (advanced species don't get extra Resolve).

I understand your runs work differently since you've got something that helps you get Rampancy and control it, so you can get a steady stream of EE.
 
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Nightclaw

Newbie
Jan 12, 2018
22
12
I understand your runs work differently since you've got something that helps you get Rampancy and control it, so you can get a steady stream of EE.
That is definitely true, as it's hard enough to even get above +2 with luxuries.

In other news, I may have hit my limit:
L23 Cities.png
City 2 couldn't have a couple of Undead. No no, it has to have more mitigation.

Edit: It's early days, but I'm more optimistic about City 1 . Neither Superior has a core of either INN or CON, and 1 had a pre-break of CON so I was able to set them both up for Negotiation Day 2 and now everyone has +30 base damage due to angst bombs.
 
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SuperSkippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
136
Loop 24---not sure I can beat either damage mitigation here. Godzilla couldn't break a window in this Tokyo:
1679947170417.png

I'll give Yokohama a shot, but I'm not terribly optimistic. The last time I went up against a damage mitigation close to that (55% in Loop 22), I could just barely limp through after an Orgy broke only a single T3 core. I don't have many tools that are much stronger than loop 22, I've got only one new Forsaken of note and she's a bit weaker than I'd like. We'll see.

Edit: Nope, not doable from my position. Can't even break all T2 Cores with what I have.

Kalloi, here's the udpated Saves.sav.
 
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Nightclaw

Newbie
Jan 12, 2018
22
12
Loop 24:
L24 Cities.png
City 1 looks doable, although the layout of vulnerabilities is worse than last loop (where the 57% mitigation wasn't too bad). I think the Superior's Confidence is close to 100, which means almost no circumstance damage. I may have to change Orgy Cat into pure INJ, to get an orgy going, but then I won't have an decent way to do HATE damage so will have an issue setting up a Rampancy.
 
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Nightclaw

Newbie
Jan 12, 2018
22
12
Loop 25:
L25 Cities.png
The 3 items for Crystal ball are Silver Collar (+30 min circ damage), Fairy Dust (Half tempt requirements and doesn't clear HATE/INJU) and something I can't remember and am too lazy to load the save to check. Pre-breaks of CON on one Animalistic and DIG on the other. An early Negotiation setup to angst bomb and then the Temptation to get the 100 EE should be doable on Day 4 since that's when the relevant phase is active.

Of course, that's thinking best case scenario. It's also possible I'd stall out trying to do stuff to the Animalistics. In that case, City 1 could be doable with those vulns since the chosen themselves would have much less mitigation.

I only realised a few cities ago how to keep raising Expertise when it "caps out", but Orgy Cat got to a respectable damage level even with minimal Punisher scaling and I didn't have to go pure INJU which was helpful.
Orgy Cat.png
Anyhow, attached is my latest save Kalloi. I may play about and see how Loop 25 turns out but I'm more likely to just wait a few days for the next version to start again.
 
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