Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.14] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[Wrynn13]

I don't like to assume anything but Tobs is also behind the temple of child grooming so...

 

[Kuritzkale]

Hey...let's not go there, seems a bit much.

To be clear I don't ACTUALLY think he wants to fuck his kid or something (I'm sure he's a good father and I'm sure the kid will live a comfortable life with all that patreon money he rakes in), but it IS funny that's his reasoning, considering how much degenerate shit he's written in the past, and continues to participate in.

 

[MSGTNP]

According to Sav and a couple of others, it's not just that - it's about Fenoxo feeling uncomfortable with it ever since he had his kid.

With the addition of Patreon being touchy about it, it probably just didn't seem worth it for the tiny amount of parental incest stuff that existed.

Sounds like a individual that's got issues lol

LMAO I don't remember where the quote is from, but I once heard someone say that "People who have an incest fetish clearly don't have siblings/children," so I find it kind of funny that Fenoxo having a child made him 100% renounce any content of that sort.

Considering fictional characters don't exist, not really sure why anyone would really be bothered by incest in a porn game where almost every single character is overly sexualized and you banging them has zero consequences lol Just because I got three siblings doesn't mean I can't find incest attractive in porn games or in a manga/douji.

Now that I think about it, why are there no skill checks in the game? I mean they're in TiTS so I don't see why they couldn't be in this game. It'd actually be cool to bullshit your way out of situations with having a high enough charm stat. Willpower could even be a way to avoid getting corrupted or something like that.

Weird how there are item checks to make things easier(leananstone OP) but not skill checks lmao

If the mechanic's were more in depth, It would be nice to have a system similar to fallout where skill levels and passing checks actually matter. Currently however, there basically pointless, If there even is skill checks since this is a interactive vn, not a true RPG. Writers like Tobs go out of there way to make your character act a specific way even if your character would never said action.

 

[NaturalEnclave]

Not really a weird question. It's a pretty common question actually, usually asked by people who have either never read Tobs content or who like it. I don't know which side of the fence you fall on and considering a bunch of us were just talking about Tobs writing with only like 1-2 (?) people mentioning the kinu fuck mod in progress, this question seems a little baity but I'll bite.

I usually play female MCs and do not like giving them dicks. That includes magic dicks or strap-ons. So my MC is locked out of Kiyoko content and thus Kinu content - my thoughts on no kinu incest doesn't matter because kiyoko/kinu are not for dickless MCs. But I have read his other content, Garret, Gweyr quest, the party of kitsune who roam the frostwood, Convocation of Mirrors, Elyon, the lady Evergreen quest that leads into meeting the kitsune, the avanai rider in the Glacial Rift, Imad in Mallach's temple, etc. And I still don't like his writing. I don't like how he writes dialogue as part of the narration, I don't like how he seems averse to player choice in his content, I don't like how he forces the PC to act how he wants in order to make whatever point he's trying to make in his content, I don't like his pretentious responses to criticism on the forums, and I think he has no idea how to write male npc on female pc sex scenes because all of his scenes of that type have been unsexy to me.

I DO like his action/adventure bits, I think he does those well and he actually gives us various choices on how to approach situations and writes meaningful dialogue for the various companions during said scenes. But overall, if I see his name on upcoming content I know I probably won't be in for a good time. I still read it because like with the small parts of his stuff I do like, sometimes he surprises me, but he is nowhere near my favorite writer on the team. And that has nothing to do with not being able to lewd the daughter.

Sorry if my question came out as baity, that wasn't the intention. I fall into "haven't reached Tobs content" camp. Heck, I've accidently left the Fox Wife Orb in the cave because I didn't pay enough attention. I've seen a lot of Kitsune discussions both here and on the official forums and I was just curious because it's difficult to judge some of the stuff and I really didn't feel like diving into the whole sub-game in CoC2 that's all about Kitsune.

I've seen some individuals who are mostly mad because Kinu isn't bangable as well as people who legit just don't like this writing for different other reasons. And... well, it was hard for me to measure what issues exist sometimes. I mean, we are talking about a porn game that is filled with degenerate content like dicks with the size of a third leg. If people are going to be mad - it's probably going to be about porn content, not about the fact that one of the writers has pretentious but badly written philosophical topics that go against the roleplaying aspects to drive those weak points to the reader. But as I've gather from many replies here - most people just dislike his themes and they way he handles them for what sort of game CoC2 is.

Another reason I've asked this is because I am just curious about writing porn RPG games in general. I wonder how much people tolerate lack of choice in some scenarios. How much roleplaying as an evil character matters to them. How much people get irked or even mad when certain fetish is locked or absent in a porn-game with a large variety of other fetishes. To me, this entire thread sort of proves that hey, people actually greatly care about the narrative in a porn game and will be mad when it drops the bar.

As an example, if Tobs was the only writer for the game and had a pre-defined MC that always acts in a specific way and is consistent across different quests and storylines - would that improve how some of his content feels? Obviously it wouldn't fix the issue with the writing style he has, but still, it would probably remove some of the issues, right? From what I understand - he is essentially a writer who's content creates the biggest disconnect in the game people immerse themselves into and it sticks out like a sore thumb regardless of the quality of the actual content. He could have been a brilliant author, but his narrative choices just don't fit the game he is writing for. At least, that's my perspective.

 

[smithsmithsmith]

If the mechanic's were more in depth, It would be nice to have a system similar to fallout where skill levels and passing checks actually matter. Currently however, there basically pointless, If there even is skill checks since this is a interactive vn, not a true RPG. Writers like Tobs go out of there way to make your character act a specific way even if your character would never said action.

I think part of the problem with this is the multiple writers, no one wants to have their content locked off behind having specific stats. You could restrict it to main story only but then it would stick out like a sore thumb, or take the TiTs approch and make it easy to max your stats so the checks may as well not exist at all.

 

[Daken9]

As an example, if Tobs was the only writer for the game

We'd be at page 11 of this thread, and by we i mean not 99% of us.

 

[Wrynn13]

Another reason I've asked this is because I am just curious about writing porn RPG games in general. I wonder how much people tolerate lack of choice in some scenarios. How much roleplaying as an evil character matters to them. How much people get irked or even mad when certain fetish is locked or absent in a porn-game with a large variety of other fetishes. To me, this entire thread sort of proves that hey, people actually greatly care about the narrative in a porn game and will be mad when it drops the bar.

Lack of choice is a huge problem in any RPG, not just porn games. It's the reason some people call COC2 a VN and not a RPG. To be fair there is a huge difference between being told "this is a situation you can't do anything about" and "this is how your character FEELS about the situation" neither is great but one is just the setting and the other is robbing the player of agency.

 

[Kallisto]

As an example, if Tobs was the only writer for the game and had a pre-defined MC that always acts in a specific way and is consistent across different quests and storylines - would that improve how some of his content feels? Obviously it wouldn't fix the issue with the writing style he has, but still, it would probably remove some of the issues, right? From what I understand - he is essentially a writer who's content creates the biggest disconnect in the game people immerse themselves into and it sticks out like a sore thumb regardless of the quality of the actual content. He could have been a brilliant author, but his narrative choices just don't fit the game he is writing for. At least, that's my perspective.

Tobs is a very prolific writer, there's no doubt about that. Take the kitsune den for example, when it first came out it didn't launch with every single npc that it has now. But over the course of several patches, Tobs' filled the area out with npcs, items, quests, and pages upon pages of writing pretty quickly. Compare that to literally any other area. There was a huge gap between bee hive area's introduction and "completion", winter city came out with pretty much everything at once and then stayed empty for months (and still doesn't have enough content/npcs to read as a populated city), KhorMinos is being slooowwwllllyyyyy filled out (first backer patch with Undermountain content came out June 11, 2021), etc.

But while he can crank stuff out fast, his work itself needs an editor. If he was the only writer for the game I think I'd still be frustrated because playing a game that lets you choose tfs, class, powers, weapons, armor, name, etc and then getting to the content and realizing the writer makes the PC act like a fool to fit their narrative (with no input from the player), would be very disappointing. Also, Tobs spite writes and has proudly called himself a salt miner, so I'd still get the same feeling of "why does it seem like the writer hates the PC?" in his work. He would need a very good editor, curbing all of his worst impulses, to make a game written solely by him worth playing imo.

 

[Daken9]

If we gotta be serious about it, i don't think it's even lack of agency that's his main problem. It's certainly part of it, especially in his longer quests, but it's not like i enjoy his snippets any more either. And it's not like, say, Wsan offers much more agency in his content either. Hell if anything Wsan offers less, yet in my opinion he's good at not making it feel like that because he doesn't straight up shove the player into (needlessly) convoluted situations that would require more than one approach to not feel forced (like Tobs and others do), nor does he try to write 'complex' characters that end up falling flat either because of a total lack of likeableness, ways to handle them, or both.

Like, some of Tobs' Hall of Famers are a woman who was jealous of her kid and treated her like shit all throughout her childhood, a level 10 warrior who went full punisher on a bunch of unarmed peasants (also kids) cause what other choice had she, disappointment personified who talks all day about either fields or sucking dick, a couple dudebros who are useless as shit yet act like they're god's gift to earth (one of them is actually the backup MC, lmao), and then finally his version of the Champion who just loves and cherish each one of those assholes.

It's ass. Same as Cait and Savin's take on the Champion when they interact with her, same as Agni and B's. Only, with Tobs it's not a case of a couple of his shit characters making a sidekick out of the main character, it's most of them.

 

[MSGTNP]

I think part of the problem with this is the multiple writers, no one wants to have their content locked off behind having specific stats. You could restrict it to main story only but then it would stick out like a sore thumb, or take the TiTs approch and make it easy to max your stats so the checks may as well not exist at all.

Than what is the point of a RPG if you just make it like Skyrim where it only a RPG on a very superficial level. The entire point of a playthrough or playing a RPG in general is to role play a character in a certain way but if you make it where anyone can do anything, that destroys the immersion. A legit barbarian Champion shouldn't be good as a mage and therefore, should be locked out of content that requires you to be a dedicated mage. Sure you can argue people don't want that but people who actually like to role play or play RPG's do multiple playthrough's anyway. There is literally no replayability to a VN or a RPG if you can do literally everything just about in a single run. Yeah, I know, it's a porn game but that doesn't mean you should do a half ass job if your going to actually add RPG mechanic's to it and expect people to play it as a RPG. A good porn game is just an adult game that just HAPPENS to have porn in it.

If COC II had an actual competent rival that didn't die in five minutes after popping up, COC II wouldn't even be a thing anymore. Nobody would give a shit about it besides those who suck the salt miner's dicks.

 

[NaturalEnclave]

If he was the only writer for the game I think I'd still be frustrated because playing a game that lets you choose tfs, class, powers, weapons, armor, name, etc and then getting to the content and realizing the writer makes the PC act like a fool to fit their narrative (with no input from the player), would be very disappointing.

Do you think someone like this would be remedied if PC was actually likable/not a fool? I am mostly asking cause I have a project planned, but I am not sure I'll have enough power to add branching paths and major choices for quest. I can understand how annoying it can be when you can control every aspect of the main character... except how they interact with others and what decisions they make, but I am simply gathering info on whether or not this type of narrative is a lost cause or can work with better writing, likable characters e.t.c.

 

[smithsmithsmith]

A good porn game is just an adult game that just HAPPENS to have porn in it.

I kind of disagree here, IMO a good porn game is one that manages to blend the porn and the gameplay such that one leads into the other and vice versa. RPG's that have porn in them are a dime a dozen but the real gems are things like Karyn's prison, otherwise the best porn game would be Elden Ring but with Melania having nipples.

I do somewhat agree about CoC2 though, as an RPG it's very weak but TBH they've never really tried to court that crowd. From CoC to TiTs and now to CoC2 it's always been closer to a text adventure/VN than a DnD campaign, the combat is just there to fill the moment to moment stuff and provide an easy explanation for why anyone in universe cares about what the player character has to say (because they just kicked the crap out of their entire army).

Do you think someone like this would be remedied if PC was actually likable/not a fool? I am mostly asking cause I have a project planned, but I am not sure I'll have enough power to add branching paths and major choices for quest. I can understand how annoying it can be when you can control every aspect of the main character... except how they interact with others and what decisions they make, but I am simply gathering info on whether or not this type of narrative is a lost cause or can work with better writing, likable characters e.t.c.

It all comes down to your audience, but in general if you're giving players agency over character creation they'll probably expect more choices when it comes to the rest of the game. There's nothing wrong with a linear narative as long as it's consistant with itself and the game as a whole.

 

[NODOGAN]

Are there any more items besides the Magatama that get extra stuff if you convert into a Kitsune? (basically is a good item for non-staff casters but if you're a Kitsune and wield that thing you also unlock the "Kitsuneki" spell to give an enemy a mayor debuff.)

Just wondering if I should turn my Black Mage into a kitsune and if there's more to gain than that & the foxfire cantrip.

Also while is fun to kick Tobs any day of the week gotta say I really like Keros, Kohaku, Kiyoko & Nihara (the goo catgirl) so the guy can write characters well when he tries IMO.

 

[Kallisto]

Do you think someone like this would be remedied if PC was actually likable/not a fool? I am mostly asking cause I have a project planned, but I am not sure I'll have enough power to add branching paths and major choices for quest. I can understand how annoying it can be when you can control every aspect of the main character... except how they interact with others and what decisions they make, but I am simply gathering info on whether or not this type of narrative is a lost cause or can work with better writing, likable characters e.t.c.

I think it can work but its like Wrynn13 said: the player not having multiple branching paths and only being given one path to go down, is not the same as a writer telling the player how their character should feel. Tobs does both but it's probably the latter that pisses people off the most. And I honestly think simple dialogue choices for the player to react to what's happen wouldn't be a mountain of work to include. Like I'm not saying we need huge branching paths or anything.

Take the Gweyr example I used before. We're asked if we think Gweyr is a monster for choosing to kill the young cultists instead of doing literally anything else. It was stated that she was so much stronger than them, that killing them was trivial for her. To me, that says she had other options. Because if you're strong enough to swat people down like flies, you're strong enough to subdue them without killing them. Killing them was just easier. So the player gets two choices in the response: Yes or No. If you choose No, you say that you don't believe she's a monster, you believe she did what had to be done. If you choose yes, you somehow end up back to saying she did what had to be done. In this case Tobs gave us a false choice, because both choices lead us to say Gweyr was right. And in this story, Tobs wants to tell the tale of some badass psycho who was ultimately right all along and gets forgiven at the end. There's no room in his narrative for the player to disagree, so he doesn't give us the option to. If he had just had us say "Yes you're a monster, because you were strong enough to choose another way to deal with the situation, but you didn't. And now, even years later, you still believe you did the 'hard but right thing' that no one else had the balls to do, and you wonder why the village turned on you...for killing their loved ones."

I don't think that would add too much work. You would only need to use a more neutral tone for the player as you go forward, and then reference that variable when Gweyr gets back to town.

 

[Daken9]

Dude, Gweyr's quest is so laughable from a narrative perspective.

Could've been about a good person doing a bad thing and lying to herself about it ["No" option ---> She realizes her mistake, does NOT go back to her family but rather decides to stick to the wilds and redeem herself by helping travelers and the like (maybe sexy time with the PC), effectively the good ending].

Could've been about warrior too jaded to consider alternatives ["Yes" option ---> She goes back to her family but doesn't learn anything from her ordeal, hence the lukeworm reception she ends up receiving anyway from Gwyn and Garth, and maybe even ends up being a bad influence on Garrett or something, effectively the bad ending].

Could've been, y'know, actually complex characters and nuanced topics. Instead it's Jaime "i never really cared about the innocent" Lannister. Which, now that i think about it, yeah. Not many writers could have done a worse job with S8 of GoT, but with how convoluted yet utterly black&white his content actually is despite all the striving, i'd say Tobs is one of them.

 

[KloneZone]

Really I just wanted to fuck Gweyr that was the main thing I wanted to get from the whole questline.

 

[MSGTNP]

I kind of disagree here, IMO a good porn game is one that manages to blend the porn and the gameplay such that one leads into the other and vice versa. RPG's that have porn in them are a dime a dozen but the real gems are things like Karyn's prison, otherwise the best porn game would be Elden Ring but with Melania having nipples.

I do somewhat agree about CoC2 though, as an RPG it's very weak but TBH they've never really tried to court that crowd. From CoC to TiTs and now to CoC2 it's always been closer to a text adventure/VN than a DnD campaign, the combat is just there to fill the moment to moment stuff and provide an easy explanation for why anyone in universe cares about what the player character has to say (because they just kicked the crap out of their entire army).



It all comes down to your audience, but in general if you're giving players agency over character creation they'll probably expect more choices when it comes to the rest of the game. There's nothing wrong with a linear narative as long as it's consistant with itself and the game as a whole.

Fair enough, a porn game that can't blend both the gameplay and the porn itself well is just setting itself up for failure.

Even as a choose your own adventure VN, it's pretty god dam lacking in meaningful choices. I don't count being able to fuck dickgirl #32 or earth shattering breast girl #69 either. I've read better stuff on my phone honestly than COC II, granted, there not "adult" choose your adventure's VN's but they were still more interesting than this half ass plot they can't even be bothered to finish. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people on here could write a better plot than the dev's who seem more interested in adding half ass, barely fleshed out characters that get basically get abandoned as soon as there added. Fuck, whatever happened to QUALITY over quantity?

 

[Fiz1247]

Really I just wanted to fuck Gweyr that was the main thing I wanted to get from the whole questline.

It's implied that her husband has been cheating on her and has children from various women but when it comes to the player getting Gweyr oh no no can't have the power fantasy there instead like a good boy you will return her to her husband after solving her problems. Maybe if this was CoC1 you could have cucked Garth via a corruption check. Either way it's the same shit as Kinu and should be added in the mods plan as potential content as I want the wolf mama for myself

 

[Skandranon]

It's implied that her husband has been cheating on her and has children from various women but when it comes to the player getting Gweyr oh no no can't have the power fantasy there instead like a good boy you will return her to her husband after solving her problems. Maybe if this was CoC1 you could have cucked Garth via a corruption check. Either way it's the same shit as Kinu and should be added in the mods plan as potential content as I want the wolf mama for myself

As far as I know he was beaten and raped by an orc in one case, and the other one involved a love potion he tested on himself he was trying to buy for Gweyr.

Garth is good peoples.

And as far as I can remember, actual cheating content has never happened in all three games.

 

[muschi26]

the other one involved a love potion he tested on himself he was trying to buy for Gweyr

Isn't cheating under the effects of drugs/alcohol still be considered cheating? Then again, the rules might be different with a fantasy love potion.