Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.15] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[Tau_Iota]

he said nothing of the sort in the post you quoted. He said she is evil much earlier in the argument.
But the post you quoted is home correctly pointing out that Kas does in fact threaten the food source of the gods. something you claimed she is not doing and also that is the god's bottom line.

Kas takes souls from the good, which is their food.

See above for the majority, but yes it isn't explicitly said "Kas is evil" but like yes we understand her goals. However, she doesn't threaten the foodsource. Wraiths and demons can easily coexist

 

[mrttao]

See the devs fucked up because there's the "soul" that demons fuck out of you, and then there's the Qi-type soul that the wraiths eat. Demons don't touch your Qi, only your soul. If anything, Kasyrra hasn't been stopped because of the possibility of her exploding the population and providing so much more food for them.

seriously? that is their explanation?... ouch my brain meats hurt.

hmm, it sounds like those "gods" would actually be supporting her out of the misguided belief they are going to have a ton more (demonic) worshipers. Even though demons don't worship gods, they corrupt them

 

[Khuntai]

The background lore excuse is a shitty argument because the the twist in question is something foundational that would flip the whole universe on its head were it to get out, its not just a neat little fun fact like how the mass effect works or how the bloodlines work in Tolkien elf society. There was literally and I mean *literally* no reason to reveal it just to leave the thread hanging. It's almost like the devs were trying to jerk themselves off about their super epic world, which wouldn't be the first time I suppose. They also are good at undermining the player, like how apparently Sanders and Garths wife could beat the PC together without any effort or how Kas canonically would be defeated by another mortal every single time if the PC were to fail.

 

[Deleted member 1660801]

And these former wraiths are something else now. This is a theory that isn't supported by literally anything else in game. Nowhere is it suggested that the gods are keeping people to eat their souls, and I kinda doubt it's going that way.

I thought the gods just gained a sense of morality while being wraiths. Thus, they disguised themselves as the gods but they are still wraiths under that cover.

 

[Tau_Iota]

seriously? that is their explanation?... ouch my brain meats hurt.

hmm, it sounds like those "gods" would actually be supporting her out of the misguided belief they are going to have a ton more (demonic) worshipers. Even though demons don't worship gods, they corrupt them

Exactly, they're uh... not good. Also they're not gods, they're wraiths. They are not corruptible like Marae, as Marae was as much a part of the world as she was a God. These are creatures outside of reality let into the world by wizards before the fall of civilization. You get an in-person example from Kassyra at the Winter Palace.

 

[muschi26]

Not unsurprising? So he's surprised people are overestimating the PC? Is that really what he meant to say?

 

[BigSaltDeluxe]

I'm very confused, can I get a brief rundown on all this Gods = Wraiths stuff means?

 

[Biostar]

Honestly this all just feels like an attempt to pre-defend the devs when they predictably do nothing with this whole God lore.

 

[mrttao]

Exactly, they're uh... not good. Also they're not gods, they're wraiths. They are not corruptible like Marae, as Marae was as much a part of the world as she was a God. These are creatures outside of reality let into the world by wizards before the fall of civilization. You get an in-person example from Kassyra at the Winter Palace.

Marae is actually the goddess that resisted corruption the longest out of the entire pantheon.

The trickster god had its temple sacked, he died fighting the demons and managed to run away as a soul and have it hide away inside Urta where it is currently comatose (urta quest awakens him, then she births him into a new body).
Marae's sister, Farah, was corrupted willingly and then sealed by Marae.
Rest of pantheon was either corrupted or killed.

Marae was the only deity that is actually active in the world at the time of the game start. And all she is doing is purifying the lake from which she drinks water slightly slower than the demons are corrupting it via their industrialized corruption factory, one they built specifically to take out Marae. (since she lacks mobility)

 

[Jötunn123]

Again the devs with the ego... Why the fuck would the players be able to estimate anything when the story can't stay stay solid enough that it has any logic that won't change before the next dialogue box.

 

[MoneyMan181]

No. They don't need to be explored.

Any media with any kind of lore has a crapload of plot threads that never get pulled. From Skyrim, to Destiny, to D&D to Mass Effect - plot details and happenings that could be huge given the context don't always see any kind of exploration. They don't need to. The world has a history, and some funky stuff has happened, but your hero doesn't need to intimately concern himself with every aspect of it.

OK sure not every interesting idea needs to be explored. Imagination is a powerful tool itself and all, right? The problem with that logic here is that the gods are an integral part of the story. You meet and have conversations with 3 of them and see another one without talking to them. Oh and you fuck two of them. You can even give your soul to one of them for "safekeeping". When they're this tied to the plot, I do think something that huge needs to be explored at least a little bit. It could literally change the foundation of the world and how everybody perceives it. It isn't just background info that can be hand-waved away anymore. You can excuse something like Mass Effect's star dying bit because the stars themselves aren't a main part of the plot and what Shepherd goes through. The same cannot be said for the gods in this game.

No, I'm saying the champ doesn't care.
It's not important to the champ. The act of doing so would in fact be actively detrimental to the champ.

Of course the gods care, given two of them ask you not to do it, and of course religious people would care - but to the champ and his mission, it isn't a concern.

Like others have said, that's you putting your views onto a blank slate. My Champ could be a crusader of Velun or whatever and have his entire worldview rocked by this news. The champ can care about more than just stopping Kas because, you guessed it, they're a blank slate.

I'm not being dismissive, I just think it's fine as is.

Anytime Tau_Iota delves into the ramifications of this plot point, you immediately go, "Nope, no proof." Obviously there's no proof, because we just have this tidbit of information to go on. But we can infer from that little bit and maybe figure things out before/if they ever happen. Nobody is saying any of this is fact, they're just strong possibilites given the information. Yet you just fervently deny the possibility of what he's saying because there's no hard proof for it.

That's kind of a textbook case of being dismissive, no?

 

[Jötunn123]

I wouldn't call the PC a blank slate, the story pushes them forward as some champ against Kas and the Demonic forces. Though the path and events between can change... I might fear that it might eventually end sort of like COC1.

 

[MoneyMan181]

I wouldn't call the PC a blank slate, the story pushes them forward as some champ against Kas and the Demonic forces. Though the path and events between can change... I might fear that it might eventually end sort of like COC1.

Obviously there has to be SOME force driving the PC, there can't ever be a completely blank slate because then you could just say they don't give a shit about the plot and have them walk off into the ocean. But seeing how the game allows you to choose your own very general backstory, doesn't really enforce any ideas onto the PC('cept for TOBS shit), lets you completely customize their appearance, and allows you to choose how the PC behaves(very vaguely but still), I'd say it's definitely enough to be considered a blank slate.

 

[Thisguy2]

Not unsurprising? So he's surprised people are overestimating the PC? Is that really what he meant to say?

So the Pc is strong enough to have every single god be interested in their soul and is the only one who even pose a threat to Kas and tries to stop her but at the same time they're not strong enough to surpass the almighty dev self inserts. Mallach forbid there was an illusion of choice and the actual universe is somewhat believable.
God i can't wait for litteraly anyone else to write for this piece of shit game, I'm so over these guys egos.

 

[muschi26]

So the Pc is strong enough to have every single god be interested in their soul and is the only one who even pose a threat to Kas and tries to stop her but at the same time they're not strong enough to surpass the almighty dev self inserts. Mallach forbid there was an illusion of choice and the actual universe is somewhat believable.
God i can't wait for litteraly anyone else to write for this piece of shit game, I'm so over these guys egos.

So clearly what he should have said was that it isn't surprising that people overestimate the PC (in his eyes), because of all the crazy things that would point towards the PC actually being someone noteworthy.

I just found it slightly ironic that Tobs of all people would get his words messed up.

 

[Jötunn123]

There are so many characters in tits and COC2 now that are so much better than the PC in some or many things now. Was there even anything like that in the original COC1, aside from the Marach herself which was an actual goddess.

 

[Skandranon]

The problem with that logic here is that the gods are an integral part of the story. You meet and have conversations with 3 of them and see another one without talking to them. Oh and you fuck two of them. You can even give your soul to one of them for "safekeeping". When they're this tied to the plot, I do think something that huge needs to be explored at least a little bit.

None of those interactions are main story. The only godly interaction tied to the main plot is basically a short scene of Lumia.

They really haven't been tied to the story other than that, all of their scenes are optional.

Like others have said, that's you putting your views onto a blank slate. My Champ could be a crusader of Velun or whatever and have his entire worldview rocked by this news. The champ can care about more than just stopping Kas because, you guessed it, they're a blank slate.

Honestly, they aren't really a blank slate, but that's beside the point. The champ has certain baked in aspects - one of them is his goal is Kass. Above pretty much all else. The focus of the game and the champs goals are inmutable.

Anytime Tau_Iota delves into the ramifications of this plot point, you immediately go, "Nope, no proof." Obviously there's no proof, because we just have this tidbit of information to go on. But we can infer from that little bit and maybe figure things out before/if they ever happen. Nobody is saying any of this is fact, they're just strong possibilites given the information. Yet you just fervently deny the possibility of what he's saying because there's no hard proof for it.

That's kind of a textbook case of being dismissive, no?

Well no, and you just...completely switched subjects. We were talking about me being dismissive of the idea that this plot point needs to be developed, which is a completely different conversation than debating theories with Tau.

 

[MangaKing]

There are so many characters in tits and COC2 now that are so much better than the PC in some or many things now. Was there even anything like that in the original COC1, aside from the Marach herself which was an actual goddess.

I think the problem is way worse in COC2, I can't recall in TITS, being randomly sucker punched out of nowhere and knocked out, then being called a weakling without being able to do anything to stop it,

In TITS you have no companions so you have to be somewhat strong in the world, and you fight against pirates, corporations, primitive armies, and other things, and TITS has skill and job checks even if they are only for games and things where in COC2 your stats only matter in combat but not in the story

 

[Jötunn123]

I think the problem is way worse in COC2, I can't recall in TITS, being randomly sucker punched out of nowhere and knocked out, then being called a weakling without being able to do anything to stop it,

In TITS you have no companions so you have to be somewhat strong in the world

It mainly happens in scenes with certain other characters, for example in the kemono girl at the tavros bar that you can romance. In one of the scenes, a zil comes to the bar and for some reason flirts with the Kemono friends, and while the PC is completely useless from the Zil pheromones and basically has to watch pathetically until the kemono girl breaks out of the pheromones herself and beats the zil up... Yeah an untrained girl going to an university or something like that does something a max stat Steele can't do.

 

[Wipp]

These past few updates have been nice, but I hope we'll get through the rest of the minotaur story soon as I was getting pretty invested in it. Also still itching for repeating scenes with Brienne's family. I still can't comprehend how it's taken so long to just conclude that side content already. Last I'd heard it's been written for months but they just don't want to program it in for whatever reason...