Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.15] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[Shiro15]

This is mostly in response to this

Eh, I thought it was interesting enough on its own that it doesn't really need further elaboration. It doesn't really change anything given that they apparently are exactly the same as the originals, and it wasn't a huge event in the first place.

I'm not a deeply religious person, so like Skan I generally don't care about religion whether in a fictional game or real life. But, I've said this before I hate how even after becoming Keros's champion and offering your soul to him the thing Kas is after, and the champions whole reason for being invested in this quest, your character is essentially told to sit down, shut up and try not to embarrass Kiyoko and Kinu in the Kitsune Den.

Keros is the most respected being in Kitsune culture. He is the person who punished Komari for five generations over her failures. (Komari is second only to Kiyoko in the Kitsune den) The champion earns Keros favor and becomes his right hand. To say that gods in this game is just a neat bit of lore. Really downplays their position.

Divine beings or characters with near unlimited power cannot not just be background details, especially when its possible to interact and be punished by them.

For example in Mortal Kombat you have Demi-Gods like Rain. Gods like Raiden. And then you have the Elder Gods. The Elders God only goal is to keep the One Being from returning. Beyond that they don't interfere with what is going on. Then you have gods who actively do what they can to protect their realm. And when they choose a champion (in the case of Raiden and earth realm Lui Kang would be its champion) that champion is respected and that god will do what ever they can to hold onto that champion. It is part of the reason Raiden is often cautious of Lui Kang's relationship with Kitana, as having him be romantically involved with her, wether she is ruler of Edenia or Outworld could lead to conflicts of interest and weaken Earth realm.

Also in Mortal Kombat is false gods or some characters like Sub Zero (who in his amargeddon ending achieves a power greater than normal gods, but not quite Elder god status). When new power like that shows up it immediately warrants a threat or has an impact on the world. Things like that should never be simply brushed off in a story. Kas being in this realm and potentially seeking to ruin it should immediately warrant the gods attention and they should at the very least be sending out their champions and investigate or deal with it. (Which is what the Elder Gods did when Sub Zero obtained his power) Also considering the pc can become the gods champion (and Kas is a direct threat to the pc) they should be fully behind supporting your character. Not going well Kas is interesting, so we'll sit back and see what happens.

While I know he says he'll hold onto your soul so Kas can't possibly steal it, you'd think he'd give the pc more support beyond that. While it is stated the Gods saved the world, if these gods are actually false god and not the benelvoent ones of the past that would be concerning, as others have pointed out they could be manipulating the pc (if they chose to side with the gods) and the others like Cait to an unknown end. If these are the og Gods it would be still be concerning as despite being called benonevlent all the pc has seen is general apathy. Sure they're powerful, but allowing Kass to gain more power could lead to their and the worlds ends. (Literally every DBZ badguy has lost because of their arrogance.) This apathy may have lead to the ruin of this world in the first place.


Side note I don't really like how the gods opperate in the MK universe. But they seems more compentent than the gods in this game. This story bit could be cool, but just like so many other things in this game it seems poorly thought out.

 

[mrttao]

but allowing Kass to gain more power could lead to their and the worlds ends. (Literally every DBZ badguy has lost because of their arrogance.)

for a better example. CoC1, the prequel to this game, had the gods lose to the demons. when the demons started out as mortal sorcerers. The gods ignored them until it was too late.

 

[Skandranon]

We get that Kasyrra is evil. I'm not arguing she isn't. I'm aware she is, hence "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't." I'm saying, how can you trust entities that feed off of your soul. And not to mention, with every soul eaten they grow stronger. You are told the gods are good. You don't ever see them be good unless it serves their own interests. Kas has no effect on them aside from the portal she opens, which lets in something that does threaten their foodsource. Then they do the "good thing" and protect their food source. A hyena is not good for defending its meal, it's simply a hyena.

If we're acting under the assumption that the lack of evidence is evidence of absence, then you cannot say they are benevolent as you have only ever been told they were good. You have never seen it. You've only ever seen them act in their own best interest, starting at the Godswar. They just got smarter, like humans. They realized, "Hey, if we annihilate the foodsource there will be no more food!" and then fought the wraiths that didn't agree/were not smart enough to not understand that. Again, that's just a hyena being a hyena.

Point me to a good action they have committed that has not benefited them directly, and I'll agree. But everything they have done has served their interests. Especially explains why they all have a breeding thing going on. Cows gotta breed to produce more meat.

Your question is impossible to answer, because under that logic, anything they ever did to help any living being is self-interest.

And, quite frankly it's not a question that has any real relevance to the champ. We haven't seen the gods harvesting souls. The closest things we've seen is Keros and the kitsunes communal soul thing.

Even if you interpret the gods as self serving and never doing anything good, which is a stretch imo, we certainly javent seen them soing anything bad, AND the alternatives are way, way, worse.

Heck, the fact that Nareva allowed you to question her and puzzle out her secret, and she let you go afterwards with nothing but a fairly meek request to keep it under wraps when she could have wiped you off the planet should engender trust with the champ. You have info that could be a major blow to the gods and they're just letting you slide on the honor system.

 

[undyingrevenant]

OK but if the game is properly balanced so that regular people get a regular challenge and 4' goblins get a bit more of a challenge, what's the problem if the 9' manticore breezes through the game? If a player wants to min-max and ruin their game experience (or improves, depending on perspective), that's their prerogative, no? Plus, there's always difficulty options on top of that. I refuse to believe that the majority of the CoC1 playerbase made themselves into abominations just for combat stats. I'm sure the vast majority was just roleplaying whatever they wanted to roleplay, because that's the point of the game. Odds are, it was just a few people who had fun doing the min-maxing, just like in CoC2 there was one guy soloing Kasyrra, and the devs decided to act against it because they can't handle a handful of people not playing the game as they intended it—just like they rebalanced crit damage just to make that Kasyrra fight impossible by yourself, because of the one guy doing it.

To recap, the problem isn't the players min-maxing: it's game balance. If a sizeable portion of players truly feel they have no choice but to min-max to get through the game, it's a game balance issue, and that's 100% on the devs. If you have TFs that make you weaker in combat, then you absolutely need to make sure the game is still playable for people who use those TFs—either by making the debuffs not too extreme to overcome, or by including non-combat options to progress through the game (something which TiTS does a bit, but CoC2 barely does).

In your example there'd be no point in tfs having stats. If it would be balanced for those two characters to be able to do the same fight, but the weaker one only having slightly more of a challenge, then the stats would have to be small to the point of being flavor text, and would be restricted from stuff like permanently flying. You'd get like dragon arms having a bonus of 1 hp, otherwise fights wouldn't be slightly tougher for the weaker, it'd be sgt rufus thundercock, second of his name, having armor pen to compensate the player having possible tf armor bonuses so a basic pc tank would be ripped a new one. however it's a party based combat system, so if each party member has bonuses, then the pc could be a supportive class and do fine, but your tank and dps would be the ones doing the heavy lifting. You couldn't tank the same hits or hit the same enemies because your character wouldn't be able to compete with accuracy bonuses, dodge bonuses, armor pen. In theory you could, it'd seem like you did it as a weaker class but in reality you'd be better replaced with any companion, or you'd say "i did it! i used 15 elixirs and a ability to not die for a few rounds but i mean i did it!" >see 7 hour long ffx level 1 bosses. Similarly to how you can't build a tank with only physical abilities, have him put all his stats into charisma willpower and cunning, give him underwear, and have the game balance so he'd do just as well as ice knight brint. You could compromise and make him a paladin and give him a few "acceptable" tfs but you can't just have the balance scale to whatever a player would do as foolproof protection. Something has to be a loss condition, or tfs just don't have any stats, the power is transferred to other places, and you avoid all of that, and people can rp whatever they want however they want and not rely solely on their party or exploiting game mechanics.

The guy beat kas multiple times but it was meant to be a encounter you lost. The dev's responses were poor, they should have been a bit more appreciative someone put that much time and effort into their game, but it boiled down to being invulnerable, buffing yourself, and praying for a crit. Unless you built a very specific way planning for it, had revive items and the revive belt, it wasn't something doable. He also did it with a lust build I didn't see but had enough power to nuke that encounter. She had reasonable stats so you might feel like you did something but if you ever actually beat her there, there was 4th wall breaking text about you cheating. Him beating her wasn't the real problem, though. The problem was that exact formula could be used on any enemy in the entire game before the changes. Who cares about a superboss, a monster in the abyss, whatever, invulnerability, crit roll, if you fail to crit, revive and try up to 2 more times, job done. It was a hole in the armor of every future encounter basically unless they started giving everything ludicrous amounts of hp which would make people playing normally feel like everything was a sponge.

Not saying you're lying. I absolutely believe they would say there going to do something like story alterations for joining certain god factions. My problem with this is if they are saying accounting for Berry's body variations are to difficult for them or they cannot be bothered to give him flavor text in the newer quest; so they instead remove him because its easier I highly doubt they'll put in enough effort for the story alterations to be meaningful. It is probably going to be something shallow interaction wise. (Like characters addressing you differently.) Altering the story in way that seems impactful based off which faction you join when done right is often a massive task. I believe there is 7 gods in this game. If they allow the player to join all 7, I cannot imagine they'll be down to rewrite certain scenes 7 times to account for all the variations.

Story alterations I meant about Kas in particular, not a route for each individual god. If you ever sell your soul and go to her, she loses her shot at having a child, feels you betrayed her etc. However more than likely that'd just alter your path from the romance to "hostile" with maybe a couple dialogue changes. they could make it a route where she becomes more unhinged in comparison since in the normal "hostile" route you have a soul she could get, but with the betrayal she has no hope, but i doubt they'd make a second variation. from what i've heard i don't think they're going to make every single god available, lumia's pretty confirmed and supposed to be getting one eventuallysoonishTM, and i believe nareva is next when we reach her domain. none of the others they've talked about, and yeah i'm in agreement with you it'll probably be something like skyrims "WOWEE ITS THE CHAMPION OF (god) so would you like a apple", with maybe if we're lucky an exclusive epilogue or the occasional treat with particular people, the kitsune for keros, the devout people for others etc, but yeah i'm not holding my breath.

We get that Kasyrra is evil. I'm not arguing she isn't. I'm aware she is, hence "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't." I'm saying, how can you trust entities that feed off of your soul. And not to mention, with every soul eaten they grow stronger. You are told the gods are good. You don't ever see them be good unless it serves their own interests. Kas has no effect on them aside from the portal she opens, which lets in something that does threaten their foodsource. Then they do the "good thing" and protect their food source. A hyena is not good for defending its meal, it's simply a hyena.

If we're acting under the assumption that the lack of evidence is evidence of absence, then you cannot say they are benevolent as you have only ever been told they were good. You have never seen it. You've only ever seen them act in their own best interest, starting at the Godswar. They just got smarter, like humans. They realized, "Hey, if we annihilate the foodsource there will be no more food!" and then fought the wraiths that didn't agree/were not smart enough to not understand that. Again, that's just a hyena being a hyena.

Point me to a good action they have committed that has not benefited them directly, and I'll agree. But everything they have done has served their interests. Especially explains why they all have a breeding thing going on. Cows gotta breed to produce more meat.

Well on the topic of beings feeding on your soul, the world doesn't like or accept it, YOU do. Kinu pops up in hawkethorne and is expecting to die if she's spotted. All the kitsune say upfront "so uh we need to drain your life energy some but we give GREAT HEAD NO CAP!" the common response is for people to hunt them down, the pc is the exception not the rule. On the gods, imo what they're trying to write is basically, all of them were empty and formless moving black holes. Whatever they ate, they got memories etc. They steadily grew hearts and forms etc and aren't really "wraiths" anymore, they're like hiveminds, combinations of many, many people, experiences etc embodying the forms of gods people followed, but also becoming them eventually, caring and defending people to various levels etc. They are similar to gods in how no, you never know if they're really good, but you couldn't do anything about it, you just trust them or try to rebel and hope you're not deus vulted or lumia doesnt splatter you across the wall. they grow stronger with souls but at the same time, the kitsune become cursed if they kill, and it also damages their reputation and makes them have to make examples. they're powerful but they're similar to vampires, they keep a good enough reputation or they'll, again, get deus vulted. keros also keeps them in line and explicitly tells them to give back what they take, and in game the energy is also shown as regenerating over time so if someone went there hoping to commit suicide by fox, the foxes would refuse, and they're capable of seeing life energy so they'd know how much they could do, if they go beyond that then they'd become cursed become faceless and exiled. the gods seem to feed off their followers beliefs, which leads to stuff like mallach contacting you directly and thanking you in his "heaven" after building a large temple to him for cait which he says is usually only accessed by the equivalent of lifelong saints, martyrs or other gods so it's a big deal, their knowledge has given them the awareness to understand life and death and emotions so they don't want to feed like that and don't appear to need to, and people can touch them point blank and even have sex with them so they don't appear to have soul eater qualities or at least are completely under control.

Your question is impossible to answer, because under that logic, anything they ever did to help any living being is self-interest.

And, quite frankly it's not a question that has any real relevance to the champ. We haven't seen the gods harvesting souls. The closest things we've seen is Keros and the kitsunes communal soul thing.

Even if you interpret the gods as self serving and never doing anything good, which is a stretch imo, we certainly javent seen them soing anything bad, AND the alternatives are way, way, worse.

Heck, the fact that Nareva allowed you to question her and puzzle out her secret, and she let you go afterwards with nothing but a fairly meek request to keep it under wraps when she could have wiped you off the planet should engender trust with the champ. You have info that could be a major blow to the gods and they're just letting you slide on the honor system.

Nareva lets you go because they already say if you were to tell anyone, they'd consider it blasphemy of the highest order, and you'd be hunted to the ends of the earth by followers of every god at worst, or step on many toes, or at best laughed at. Keros also talks about it with you later and says "bro, just don't say anyone, it'd just be bad for you". the living embodiments of gods, widely known and worshipped are literally walking around. you couldn't run up to people and go "THEYRE EEEEEVIIIIIL AND WERE WRAITHS ALL ALONG" while literal mallach is walking around patting girls on the head, not counting fanatics.

 

[Skandranon]

This doesn't make a lick of sense to me. So you're saying interesting ideas shouldn't explored? What? I legitimately don't understand this.

No. They don't need to be explored.

Any media with any kind of lore has a crapload of plot threads that never get pulled. From Skyrim, to Destiny, to D&D to Mass Effect - plot details and happenings that could be huge given the context don't always see any kind of exploration. They don't need to. The world has a history, and some funky stuff has happened, but your hero doesn't need to intimately concern himself with every aspect of it.

All the champ has to do is spread word that the gods are actually wraiths. You really think the soul suckers don't care about people finding out the people they worship are soul suckers?

No, I'm saying the champ doesn't care.
It's not important to the champ. The act of doing so would in fact be actively detrimental to the champ.

Of course the gods care, given two of them ask you not to do it, and of course religious people would care - but to the champ and his mission, it isn't a concern.

Really though, I don't know why you seem so dismissive towards one of the few actually very interesting ideas the game brings forth. This would actually make the story have way more stake, get the player more invested, and be a really cool twist for whenever they would reveal it. It would be a massive wasted opportunity if they didn't run with this idea, considering it's one of the more novel ones for the game. Would make me wonder why they even thought of the idea if they weren't planning to do something with it.

I think it gives the world depth, without being expounded upon. I think a story that has the hero brush up against things bigger than him that he doesn't necessarily need to engage make the world fell bigger and more lived in.

I'm not being dismissive, I just think it's fine as is.

 

[Tau_Iota]

snip

The question is impossible to answer because it's the truth. They have never acted out of goodness, only self-service. They could have nipped Kas in the bud, as soon as she appeared. Lumia certainly did to stop the wraith, why didn't she appear to stop Kas? She doesn't threaten the foodsource, and thus can be allowed to do whatever.

Wraiths' primary foodsource is souls, we haven't witnessed the actual act because we only ever see the gods when they deem it acceptable.

There is something to be said that the gods treat their cattle decently, but obviously not everyone would be okay with that. Plus, the horrific realization that one day your immortal soul will be eaten. Note, what you say are things that are unimportant to the champ are for your champ. That's how your champ feels, it's after all an RPG.

Nareva could easily snuff you out if you tried to, and the devs have hinted on their discord that you're subconsciously manipulated into just not saying anything. Does that sound... good to you?

 

[Wrynn13]

Depends on the writer, not everyone is Tobs. The totally not a lightsaber quest is supposed to have quite a lot of variations already baked in for if your PC is a champ of Lumia for example.

 

[A Burning Conscience]

No, I'm saying the champ doesn't care.
It's not important to the champ. The act of doing so would in fact be actively detrimental to the champ.

I thought this was an RPG, with our own characters. Your version of the champ may be content to let that slide, and that is fine. But I find it more than reasonable, understandable, and logical for the revelation that one of the foundations of the world being a lie, would very much interest the Champ as I play them.

 

[Thisguy2]

Yknow my expectations for this game were getting low. But seeing as these devs are determined to ruin

ty bruddah for showing me da wei.

Spoiler: Interdasting Bubble Lord posts

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Yknow my expectations were low reading about these devs but damn. How masochistic are these whales that they can tolerate that level of disrespect and e-begging.

 

[JuanZeMan]

When can we get Lifur busts?

 

[muschi26]

In your example there'd be no point in tfs having stats. If it would be balanced for those two characters to be able to do the same fight, but the weaker one only having slightly more of a challenge, then the stats would have to be small to the point of being flavor text, and would be restricted from stuff like permanently flying. You'd get like dragon arms having a bonus of 1 hp, otherwise fights wouldn't be slightly tougher for the weaker, it'd be sgt rufus thundercock, second of his name, having armor pen to compensate the player having possible tf armor bonuses so a basic pc tank would be ripped a new one. however it's a party based combat system, so if each party member has bonuses, then the pc could be a supportive class and do fine, but your tank and dps would be the ones doing the heavy lifting. You couldn't tank the same hits or hit the same enemies because your character wouldn't be able to compete with accuracy bonuses, dodge bonuses, armor pen. In theory you could, it'd seem like you did it as a weaker class but in reality you'd be better replaced with any companion, or you'd say "i did it! i used 15 elixirs and a ability to not die for a few rounds but i mean i did it!" >see 7 hour long ffx level 1 bosses. Similarly to how you can't build a tank with only physical abilities, have him put all his stats into charisma willpower and cunning, give him underwear, and have the game balance so he'd do just as well as ice knight brint. You could compromise and make him a paladin and give him a few "acceptable" tfs but you can't just have the balance scale to whatever a player would do as foolproof protection. Something has to be a loss condition, or tfs just don't have any stats, the power is transferred to other places, and you avoid all of that, and people can rp whatever they want however they want and not rely solely on their party or exploiting game mechanics.

I'm not saying combat should be exactly the same for the regular human and the 4' goblin, except that the latter has to use an extra potion. Assuming there are three difficulties of encounter: easy, medium, and hard; and that for a regular human, these are respectively: a breeze (you can go through several encounters like this without healing), a bit of a challenge (you'll need to heal every so often, or play more defensively to conserve HP), and a real challenge (you'll need to use consumables, ultimate abilities, etc., to get through it)—assuming this state of balance for a regular human, then for a weak goblin, the same three encounters might look like this: the "easy" and "medium" encounters would correspond roughly to the "medium" and "hard" encounters from the perspective of a human, whereas the "hard" encounter would not be possible, and your character would have to run away. Now, this is from the perspective of traditional combat, i.e. swinging swords and flinging spells until your opponent dies, but seeing that this is supposed to be an RPG, there could be additional methods of resolving encounters. Maybe as a weak goblin, you can trick the "hard" encounters—which you're no match for in traditional combat—with a sleeping potion, or a rock trap, etc.

The only real problem is when it comes to bosses, since bosses are usually gating content, which means the PC has to be able to get past them, but here too, the solution is just to include more non-combat solutions. In TiTS, you can sweet-talk your way through a lot of boss encounters to avoid fighting; or, you can just lose (and get a defeat sex scene), then move on: it's not like CoC2, where you're forced into beating the boss, in traditional combat, otherwise you get a game over and have to reload.

The guy beat kas multiple times but it was meant to be a encounter you lost. The dev's responses were poor, they should have been a bit more appreciative someone put that much time and effort into their game, but it boiled down to being invulnerable, buffing yourself, and praying for a crit. Unless you built a very specific way planning for it, had revive items and the revive belt, it wasn't something doable. He also did it with a lust build I didn't see but had enough power to nuke that encounter. She had reasonable stats so you might feel like you did something but if you ever actually beat her there, there was 4th wall breaking text about you cheating. Him beating her wasn't the real problem, though. The problem was that exact formula could be used on any enemy in the entire game before the changes. Who cares about a superboss, a monster in the abyss, whatever, invulnerability, crit roll, if you fail to crit, revive and try up to 2 more times, job done. It was a hole in the armor of every future encounter basically unless they started giving everything ludicrous amounts of hp which would make people playing normally feel like everything was a sponge.

That's what I'm saying: they shouldn't balance the game around exploits. You think if they left that it, then everyone was going to start stacking invulnerability items, and saving and reloading every fight while praying for a crit? Of course not. It's a role-playing game, and anybody that's ignoring that for the sake of min-maxing and intentionally trying to break the game like this is going to be in the minority. And again, what's the issue if it's possible? It's a single-player game, so anyone breaking the combat system is ultimately just ruining their own experience—no one else is affected. Now, of course you don't want exploits to be lying out in the open, that just any random player could stumble upon them; but if it requires a specific build, as well as continuously saving and reloading for that one perfect fight, then it's highly unlikely that casual players will manage to ruin the game for themselves.

Also, again, there are difficulty options, which I admit are generally a crutch for poor balancing (basically the devs saying "we can't be bothered to balance our game, so here, do it yourself"), but in this case, if someone wants to make themselves an OP 10' monstrosity but still wants a challenge, they can turn up the difficulty, while someone who wants to play as a 4' goblin twink but still doesn't want combat to be a hassle can turn it down.

 

[Shiro15]

No. They don't need to be explored.

Any media with any kind of lore has a crapload of plot threads that never get pulled. From Skyrim, to Destiny, to D&D to Mass Effect - plot details and happenings that could be huge given the context don't always see any kind of exploration. They don't need to. The world has a history, and some funky stuff has happened, but your hero doesn't need to intimately concern himself with every aspect of it.

I agree not all plot threads need to be explored. For example in Mass Effect 2 when you're recruiting Tali it is revealed that suns are dying faster then they should. This plot thread is never explored later.

But, in the case of Kass and the secrets surrounding the gods, well we regularly bump into them. Most factions seem to have some way of communicating with their deity. And once again the case of Komari getting punished when they fail their gods. They absolutely play a role in how this world works. And can't but ignored as a cool bit of detail. There is a a whole god war that decimated the world.

Edit: It should also be noted over explaining things can take away some of the magic. (Which is what I believe Skan is getting at.) Which I would also agree with, as the Reapers having their whole entire origin explained in the Leviathan DLC did ruin them for me.

Though I don't believe this is whats going on here. I think certain in game lore hints at things that will effect the pc discesion to pledge their allegiance to a deity. I think this is more akin to how gods work in mortal kombat. They are a part of the worlds lore and play an important role in that games world builiding and can't really be ingnored because of that.

No, I'm saying the champ doesn't care.
It's not important to the champ. The act of doing so would in fact be actively detrimental to the champ.

Of course the gods care, given two of them ask you not to do it, and of course religious people would care - but to the champ and his mission, it isn't a concern.

I would say its important to my champion that became Keros's Champion. Can't see how it wouldn't be if he now controls my characters soul. In that play-through I did it believing I would get a better role with the Kitsunes, but yeah I'll go sit back in my corner, as a filthy savage can't possibly understand the politics and gods. I'll leave it to Kiyoko and Kinu

 

[Skandranon]

The question is impossible to answer because it's the truth. They have never acted out of goodness, only self-service. They could have nipped Kas in the bud, as soon as she appeared. Lumia certainly did to stop the wraith, why didn't she appear to stop Kas? She doesn't threaten the foodsource, and thus can be allowed to do whatever.

Doesn't hold up. Kass has and does threaten it directly - she literally takes souls. She in fact did exactly that thing on a mass scale, taking a crapload of Mallachs followers souls and trading them back to him for information which he himself said he couldn't refuse.

And honestly, gods not interfering directly with things they can have humans handle is....almost all gods. In all fiction. Ever. Why would these ones be different?

Wraiths' primary foodsource is souls, we haven't witnessed the actual act because we only ever see the gods when they deem it acceptable.

And these former wraiths are something else now. This is a theory that isn't supported by literally anything else in game. Nowhere is it suggested that the gods are keeping people to eat their souls, and I kinda doubt it's going that way.

There is something to be said that the gods treat their cattle decently, but obviously not everyone would be okay with that. Plus, the horrific realization that one day your immortal soul will be eaten.

That realization would be horrible if it ever happened. But given that there's zero reason for the champ or anyone else to ever think that - it's not really relevant to the situation.

Note, what you say are things that are unimportant to the champ are for your champ. That's how your champ feels, it's after all an RPG.

To an extent. More true in a tabletop RPG.
I can't, for instance, say that my character in Baldurs Gate doesn't want to go after Irenicus - he has to. Can't say that my character in Planesacpe Torment has no interest in recovering his memories and finding out his past ‐ he has to. Mass Effect, I can pretend all I want that Shepard doesn't give a crap about saving the universe - but it won't hold up with NY actions.

Your character, my character, everyone's character, is primarily concerned with Kas, the person who is directly and immediately threatening their existence. No getting around that.

Nareva could easily snuff you out if you tried to, and the devs have hinted on their discord that you're subconsciously manipulated into just not saying anything. Does that sound... good to you?

Eh, your average Greco-Roman god would've turned you into a dove or some nonsense.

 

[Wrynn13]

I agree not all plot threads need to be explored. For example in Mass Effect 2 when you're recruiting Tali it is revealed that suns are dying faster then they should. This plot thread is never explored later.

But, in the case of Kass and the secrets surrounding the gods, well we regularly bump into them. Most factions seem to have some way of communicating with their deity. And once again the case of Komari get punished when they fall their gods. The absolutely play a role in how this world works.

Edit: It should also be noted over explaining things can take away some of the magic. (Which is what I believe Skan is getting at.) Which I would also agree with, as the Reapers having their whole entire origin explained in the Leviathan DLC did ruin them for me.

Though I don't believe this is whats going on here. I think certain in game lore hints at things that will effect the pc discesion to pledge their algence to a deity. I think this is more akin to how gods work in mortal kombat. They are a part of the worlds lore and play an important role that games world builiding and can't really be ingnored because of that.

The sun death was actually supposed to be a major plot point of ME3 but people figured it out so the devs threw a fit and scrapped it, so CoC2 devs don't have a monopoly on being petty I guess...

 

[Shiro15]

The sun death was actually supposed to be a major plot point of ME3 but people figured it out so the devs threw a fit and scrapped it, so CoC2 devs don't have a monopoly on being petty I guess...

I heard about that rumor, but I never knew if it was true or not.

 

[Wrynn13]

I heard about that rumor, but I never knew if it was true or not.

They literally changed the game ending because of it. And then threw another fit when people didn't like that. And then the ME cash cow died so maybe the devs of CoC2 should think about that when they bring up their "next game" talk.

 

[mrttao]

She doesn't threaten the foodsource, and thus can be allowed to do whatever.

but she is. that is literally what demons do.

corruption is a self replicating magical energy that twists everything around it. it twists people, it twists the terrain. when a person has a critical mass of corruption, it pushes their soul out of their body and solidifies it into lethicite. crystals of solidified soul that can be used to fuel magic. The former person is now a demon, with corruption taking the place of a soul.

demons can eat souls too, which slowly over time accumulate, replenishing them ability to feel emotions and have desires beyond sadism. but by that point their personality has been so warped they don't want to change. and they are still super corrupted so they still enjoy it.

Anyways, demon invasion is a direct threat to the food source of deities who eat souls.

 

[Tau_Iota]

snip

You keep insisting Kas is evil and I've agreed every time. I have not said she's not evil. I don't understand the purpose of telling me she's evil when I said "Yes, she's evil."

Our gods not interfering is different, because they almost never have. These gods break precedent (much like Greek gods, who weren't perceived as "good" in the sense that we ascribe to deities) and actively dick around with people. In some fiction, yeah sure the gods are active forces that for some reason don't get involved. But those gods are actually the gods they claim to be. Therefore, it doesn't have the same weight as a monster pretending to be that god. The intrigue comes from the fact that it's pretending to be a god and claiming to be so good and wonderful, and then they sit there and watch.

And these former wraiths are something else now.

Never has it been stated in or out of the game that they ever stopped being wraiths. They are still wraiths, they just have higher brain function now. It's safe to infer that the wraiths continue eating... I mean why wouldn't they...?

That realization would be horrible if it ever happened. But given that there's zero reason for the champ or anyone else to ever think that - it's not really relevant to the situation.

What do you expect someone would think after being told that the souleaters became gods? That they stopped being souleaters? Not to mention, wraiths eating your soul = actual permadeath. Demon fucks out your soul, you're corrupted but you're still kicking. It's extremely relevant, as well. Is the world truly safe when there's still soulsuckers cosplaying gods?

Also sure, RPGs do have some rails. However, take Daggerfall. You could completely ignore the main quest if you wanted and just live your best life. Not to mention this game was intended to be closer to a TTRPG than a video game RPG, so bringing up Baldur's Gate and Daggerfall is a bit meaningless given that's not the type of game they're trying to make.

Also you can get around it. Never interact with the main quest,and chill out in the starter areas. You have now abandoned Savarrah, and are free to live a happy life in your rent-free inn

 

[mrttao]

You keep insisting Kas is evil

he said nothing of the sort in the post you quoted. He said she is evil much earlier in the argument.
But the post you quoted is just him correctly pointing out that Kas does in fact threaten the food source of the gods. something you claimed she is not doing and also that is the god's bottom line.

Kas takes souls from the good, which is their food.

 

[Tau_Iota]

but she is. that is literally what demons do.

corruption is a self replicating magical energy that twists everything around it. it twists people, it twists the terrain. when a person has a critical mass of corruption, it pushes their soul out of their body and solidifies it into lethicite. crystals of solidified soul that can be used to fuel magic. The former person is now a demon, with corruption taking the place of a soul.

demons can eat souls too, which slowly over time accumulate, replenishing them ability to feel emotions and have desires beyond sadism. but by that point their personality has been so warped they don't want to change. and they are still super corrupted so they still enjoy it.

Anyways, demon invasion is a direct threat to the food source of deities who eat souls.

See the devs fucked up because there's the "soul" that demons fuck out of you, and then there's the Qi-type soul that the wraiths eat. Demons don't touch your Qi, only your soul. If anything, Kasyrra hasn't been stopped because of the possibility of her exploding the population and providing so much more food for them.