Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.15] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[MoneyMan181]

Doesn't change anything, they modeled themselves and represent the same things as the original.

The fact that they aren't the originals is supposed to basically be optional flavoring and will never be important most likely.

Seems kinda stupid that they would implement something that big for the lore and do absolutely nothing with it, especially if we're going to find out about it in-game. That shit would change the entire world if the information got out. It would just be a Chekhov's Gun if they didn't do anything with it. I'm all for small little lore details, but they have to be just that if they won't elaborate on it further. Small. Either that or pull some Dark Souls shit but they're obviously not doing that.

 

[destroyerofassholes]

A whole bunch of nothings in the latest public patch. Man, I thought the Berwyn update would finally be something worth a shit but even that was a massive disappointment.

I hope that Brihaus isn't at least, whenever in the next century it gets added.

 

[Wrynn13]

Well I missed Tira's representative, she doesn't have a wiki page but then that's hardly surprising.
Also, while it's true that they're just soul eating extradimensional monsters pretending to be gods, they are all each meant to be distinct and have their own role to play in the pantheon. They each took on the mantle of the old gods which supposedly did once exist, acting like them. Seems like the old gods, and their charlatan replacements, were all in a competition to see who could make the most perverse breeding culture.

Real pantheons have gods who each represent distinct aspects of their culture's world, here we have Light themed pregnancy god, Egg/Bird themed pregnancy god, Being a dick themed pregnancy god (well really just soul vampires, but breeding was important enough to make a giant mural to it in their temples), and then a family planning themed sex god.
Who on earth do people pray to for non-sexed based content? If a blacksmith prayed to Lumia then it seems like they've got 50% odds on making a sword, or giving birth to twins.

Maybe this is why Nareva was having such a hard time in that argument scene, she's tired from having to do everyone elses jobs too.

It doesn't come out and say they are Tira's champion, I'm just willing to bet Whisper pulling that dissolve into shadow BS was an ability he gained as Tira's champion. He's also said he was working with the cult for his own ends not theirs. Alternatively the one that one shots totally not Kas during the ring quest might be the champ, I think Whisper said something about being afraid of her or something.

 

[Skandranon]

Seems kinda stupid that they would implement something that big for the lore and do absolutely nothing with it, especially if we're going to find out about it in-game. That shit would change the entire world if the information got out. It would just be a Chekhov's Gun if they didn't do anything with it. I'm all for small little lore details, but they have to be just that if they won't elaborate on it further. Small. Either that or pull some Dark Souls shit but they're obviously not doing that.

Eh, I thought it was interesting enough on its own that it doesn't really need further elaboration. It doesn't really change anything given that they apparently are exactly the same as the originals, and it wasn't a huge event in the first place.

 

[Tau_Iota]

Eh, I thought it was interesting enough on its own that it doesn't really need further elaboration. It doesn't really change anything given that they apparently are exactly the same as the originals, and it wasn't a huge event in the first place.

I don't know, it's a pretty big deal. Imagine God came down from Heaven and said "Yo, I'm like, totally real bros. I've been here this whole time. Gonna be meddling in your affairs now too, okay? Talk soon." The world would implode from that event, not to mention the person that finds out that whatever is claiming to be God is not actually God. Bonus points if it's the same type of being that destroyed your most advanced civilization like in CoC2.

It absolutely should become an important plot point, especially since Kas has shown up and started fucking around. Like it's totally feasible for the story to lead to the "Gods" lifting their veils and being honest about their nature. Or a showdown between the New Gods and the Old Gods (who have finally decided to give a fuck). Or, Kas discovering their true nature and revealing it to the people of Savarrah. You would suddenly have much larger groups willing to work with her as what they thought was their Gods are just wraiths wearing skinsuits. And given that wraiths fucked up their world... they certainly wouldn't be happy that some fooled them into worshipping them. Dedicating their entire lives to the tenets that god set in place for them. Sacrifice after sacrifice... for a monster they thought was their god.

If they tell you and then it's just *shrug* "Oh well," it's just a waste. Sure it has that initial and all, but after that... what does it offer?

Not to mention that they're not the same as the originals, as the originals were more like our gods. They fucked around in the clouds and ignored us while we did whatever. These "New Gods" are meddling in mortal affairs, the revelation of their true identity on Earth and on Savarrah would be world-shattering.

Maybe if you've never been/been with someone extremely devout to their religion it's harder to understand how absolutely mindfuckingly cataclysmic finding something like that out would be, but it would be really really bad.

 

[A Burning Conscience]

Snip

It's also missing a perfect opportunity for some Glorious Deicide.
But I guess killing the "Gods" in a "No Masters" style way would be too much of a power fantasy. So no doubt Cait will smother Mallach to death with her butt while the champ cries in the corner.

 

[Tau_Iota]

It's also missing a perfect opportunity for some Glorious Deicide.
But I guess killing the "Gods" in a "No Masters" style way would be too much of a power fantasy. So no doubt Cait will smother Mallach to death with her butt while the champ cries in the corner.

More I think about it, the more Kas finding out and exposing them makes sense. It gives you a reason to side with her aside from "we gonna get you some real babies" and provides context for the non-corrupted hostile NPCs. It also offers the opportunity for people willingly corrupting themselves as they align with Kasyrra. Edit: Left out the point of saying the last sentence. Through all these people corrupting themselves, it gives the opportunity for enemy mobs to be more corrupted overall. Like a subfaction of Khor Minos decides they're not down with the Gods and become more recognizable as the CoC1 minotaurs

Man, they have such potential just sitting there. Gathering dust.

 

[Skandranon]

Maybe if you've never been/been with someone extremely devout to their religion it's harder to understand how absolutely mindfuckingly cataclysmic finding something like that out would be, but it would be really really bad.

But those people aren't the champ.

To the champ and his immediate goals, it's interesting trivia and nothing else. One super powerful being doing god stuff is actually a different super powerful being doing the same stuff is a big 'ol shrug.

Sure, it has massive theological implications- but little to no practical ones.

And iirc the lore leaves it ambiguous whether there even were originally gods or if they were just legends that never existed, unless I missed something.

Heck, maybe the original gods were also wraiths that fed on souls until they gained sentience.

Idk, I see it as just interesting background lore that the champ stumbles into. It could be more than that, but it doesn't really need to be.

 

[Tau_Iota]

snip

I get what you're saying, and I'd agree if this was a "slice of life" adventure. But it's not, it's a "fate of the world" adventure based after the fall of civilization. It's important to the champ and their goals because the goal is saving the world, and can you consider the world saved if it's in the hands of those that destroyed it? We don't know the "gods'" end game, if they're just feeding off of the populace until they're good and ready to move on.

Given that the game goes out of the way to make the gods the very same type of being that destroyed the world, I would say it has extreme practical implications. And sure the people most affected aren't the champ, but the champ deals with many people that are very devout. Do you not think that Cait would have a wonderful character arc if she finds out her god wasn't real?

The actual existence of the actual gods is irrelevant, just one way to go for the story. Their existence doesn't matter, it's the fact that demons wraiths have been pretending to be gods matters. Civil war would break out, and no doubt one faction would side with the newcomer (Kas). The newcomer having newfound allies directly affects the mainline story, while the entire "gods ain't actually gods" indirectly affects it by asking if you should be aligning with these "gods" in the first place. The only things you know about them are the identities they stole, which is not a good start for trusting them

 

[A Burning Conscience]

But those people aren't the champ.

To the champ and his immediate goals, it's interesting trivia and nothing else. One super powerful being doing god stuff is actually a different super powerful being doing the same stuff is a big 'ol shrug.

Gonna hard disagree with you here. Because the Champ existed before the game begins, they don't just pop into the world through the portal. What if the champ is a priest? A scion of a noble house? Or, you know, a normal person raised in a world where the "gods" 100% provably exist.

Just because Kas has turned up doesn't change people's investment in what is a fundamental tenant of their world. If anything, as Tau_Iota pointed out, it's kind of more important for the context it gives to what Kas is doing.
Is Kas really any worse than the gods? You might wonder. Are the gods just like her as they too are invaders from another world.

 

[Tau_Iota]

Is Kas really any worse than the gods? You might wonder. Are the gods just like her as they too are invaders from another world.

In my opinion, they're worse. They're not only manipulating the world in whatever way they feel like, they're hiding what they truly are to do it. Feeding off of people's belief that their gods have finally starting answering their prayers.

Kasyrra shows up and tells everyone from the jump, "I am here to FUCK. And have kids. Problem?" Like she's upfront about her goals. From Day 1, these "gods" have been deceitful. That's far more concerning, considering they have the believers and power to change anything they want at will.

 

[Skandranon]

I get what you're saying, and I'd agree if this was a "slice of life" adventure. But it's not, it's a "fate of the world" adventure based after the fall of civilization. It's important to the champ and their goals because the goal is saving the world, and can you consider the world saved if it's in the hands of those that destroyed it?

See...that's not really the Champs goal, per se. They aren't a general purpose superhero. The champ is directly tied to Kass, and has to go after her. Sure, other stuff happens along the way, but that's the Champs and the games focus.

If the champ were going to do anything about the gods (and tbh, there's not really any reason they would want to) it would be past the events of this game, which has a fairly narrow focus when it comes to the story.

 

[Tau_Iota]

See...that's not really the Champs goal, per se. They aren't a general purpose superhero. The champ is directly tied to Kass, and has to go after her. Sure, other stuff happens along the way, but that's the Champs and the games focus.

If the champ were going to do anything about the gods (and tbh, there's not really any reason they would want to) it would be past the events of this game, which has a fairly narrow focus when it comes to the story.

From the main quest: That can't be a coincidence, can it? You sigh. "If we believe what Kasyrra said about coming to take my soul, not to mention her threatening to corrupt the whole world like herself, then I've got to find her. For my sake and everyone else's."

Generic hero-type going on a crusade. The champ's goal is saving the world, with their own personal stake as well

Edit: Also, it appears the champ is concerned about the well-being of their planet. Would the wraiths pretending to be gods not be a direct threat to said planet?

 

[Skandranon]

In my opinion, they're worse. They're not only manipulating the world in whatever way they feel like, they're hiding what they truly are to do it. Feeding off of people's belief that their gods have finally starting answering their prayers.

Kasyrra shows up and tells everyone from the jump, "I am here to FUCK. And have kids. Problem?" Like she's upfront about her goals. From Day 1, these "gods" have been deceitful. That's far more concerning, considering they have the believers and power to change anything they want at will.

You are massively downplaying what Kas is all about.

The demon invasion in Mareth was an actual invasion. It wasn't just a bunch of people having kinky sex, the demons had a standing army that ravaged the land. Several other factions were actively breeding armies to try to combat them.

Kas pulled Aileh and the others through the portal specifically to be her generals for her army. Kas has experimental breeding slaves hooked up to machines in a kinky sex dungeon.

Kas flys by people (like the merchant chick) and rapes out their souls in passing. For funsies.

The entire royal family in Winter City besides Ryn, Alyssa and Elthara is dead. Again, Kass.

One of the more obvious faults int he way they've handled Kass is mentioning a lot of the stuff she does that's super evil offhand and focusing on her being your cute demon waifu.

Kas isn't just trying to get everyone to bang. She is going to murder, brainwash, and rape everyone that gets in the way of her taking over the world, ie everyone. She fully plans to start a war, and is actively marshaling forces to do so.

On the other hand, the gods literally saved the entire planet in the Godswar, which by all accounts was 100% fucked before they showed up. So Kass being better than the gods somehow because shes honest seems waaay off.

 

[Tau_Iota]

snip

Fair points, but you know her end game. These wraiths, you do not know what they have planned. They devoured enough souls and that just made them good? More than likely they are far more insidious than they let on, because again, they gained their power and sentience by eating souls. Does that sound... familiar? Like how every kitsune has their soul devoured? And their "god" lies and says that it's just "keeping them safe." They aren't good. They're more or less treating the people of Savarrah like cattle. They gained sentience and realized "Ah jeez, if we let some live they'll go on to make more people. More people = more souls to eat = more power and food for us."

Sure Kas is a demon and does demonic things, but is the devil you know not better than the devil you don't?

Edit: There's even that bad end that explicitly showcases the devil you know is better, as you don't know what Tollus would do if he bested Kassyra without his bad end. It turns out, he's way worse.

 

[dxd]

You are massively downplaying what Kas is all about.

The demon invasion in Mareth was an actual invasion. It wasn't just a bunch of people having kinky sex, the demons had a standing army that ravaged the land. Several other factions were actively breeding armies to try to combat them.

Kas pulled Aileh and the others through the portal specifically to be her generals for her army. Kas has experimental breeding slaves hooked up to machines in a kinky sex dungeon.

Kas flys by people (like the merchant chick) and rapes out their souls in passing. For funsies.

The entire royal family in Winter City besides Ryn, Alyssa and Elthara is dead. Again, Kass.

One of the more obvious faults int he way they've handled Kass is mentioning a lot of the stuff she does that's super evil offhand and focusing on her being your cute demon waifu.

Kas isn't just trying to get everyone to bang. She is going to murder, brainwash, and rape everyone that gets in the way of her taking over the world, ie everyone. She fully plans to start a war, and is actively marshaling forces to do so.

On the other hand, the gods literally saved the entire planet in the Godswar, which by all accounts was 100% fucked before they showed up. So Kass being better than the gods somehow because shes honest seems waaay off.

I think your downplaying the gods seeing as they were the ones that started the godswar and only after killing hundred of thousands if not millions they grew a conscience and stopped the war

 

[Skandranon]

Fair points, but you know her end game. These wraiths, you do not know what they have planned. They devoured enough souls and that just made them good? More than likely they are far more insidious than they let on, because again, they gained their power and sentience by eating souls. Does that sound... familiar? Like how every kitsune has their soul devoured? And their "god" lies and says that it's just "keeping them safe." They aren't good. They're more or less treating the people of Savarrah like cattle. They gained sentience and realized "Ah jeez, if we let some live they'll go on to make more people. More people = more souls to eat = more power and food for us."

Sure Kas is a demon and does demonic things, but is the devil you know not better than the devil you don't?

Edit: There's even that bad end that explicitly showcases the devil you know is better, as you don't know what Tollus would do if he bested Kassyra without his bad end. It turns out, he's way worse.

Kas is someone who, by her own admission, wants to corrupt or destroy you, depending on what path you're in (remember demon waifu path isn't the only one). She repeatedly gleefully proclaims her intentions to absolutely ruin your companions, the Frost Marches, the gids and the world at large.

She repeatedly mentions what her and her people already did to Mareth, ie turn it into a barren and twisted wasteland covered by horny rape monsters.

She is malevolent in the past and present, and boldly proclaims her intention to be so in the future (that is, when she isn't lying about being the chick in KM).

Even aside from that, her experiments with portals already almost let something more powerful than her out into the wild, which would have possibly destroyed everything. She doesn't even really know what she's doing.

The gods, as far as you have ever known, have been benevolent since sentience. By everyone's accounts, including people old enough to have actually been there, they saved the entire world. They have done nothing malevolent you're aware of, and have actively helped you and the Frost Marches on some occasions (killing the thing that Kas set free, for instance). If, theoretically, they have malevolent goals, you've seen not a single clue of them.


There is less than zero reason
the Champ would ever side with Kass over the gods for moral reasons, even from an in game perspective. Especially from an ingame perspective.

Heck, even aside from all that, there's the practical standpoint. The champ cant even adequately fight Kass. The gods destroyed something that massively outclassed Kass. The champ has no reason to belive that there's anything he can do to even affect the gods.

 

[Deleted member 1660801]

On the topic of the gods, I remember talking to one of them (Keros I think), and the game does make it clear that any of the gods can stop Kas from doing all this terrible shit and they don't because it's "interesting" to them. While I do think an argument could be made for the gods being total pieces of shit or just benevolent beings. I think it says a lot about their character that they step in last minute to deal with some eldritch horror Kas let loose. Only to still let her go after the ordeal to do more heinous shit.

 

[Tau_Iota]

snip

We get that Kasyrra is evil. I'm not arguing she isn't. I'm aware she is, hence "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't." I'm saying, how can you trust entities that feed off of your soul. And not to mention, with every soul eaten they grow stronger. You are told the gods are good. You don't ever see them be good unless it serves their own interests. Kas has no effect on them aside from the portal she opens, which lets in something that does threaten their foodsource. Then they do the "good thing" and protect their food source. A hyena is not good for defending its meal, it's simply a hyena.

If we're acting under the assumption that the lack of evidence is evidence of absence, then you cannot say they are benevolent as you have only ever been told they were good. You have never seen it. You've only ever seen them act in their own best interest, starting at the Godswar. They just got smarter, like humans. They realized, "Hey, if we annihilate the foodsource there will be no more food!" and then fought the wraiths that didn't agree/were not smart enough to not understand that. Again, that's just a hyena being a hyena.

Point me to a good action they have committed that has not benefited them directly, and I'll agree. But everything they have done has served their interests. Especially explains why they all have a breeding thing going on. Cows gotta breed to produce more meat.

 

[MoneyMan181]

Eh, I thought it was interesting enough on its own that it doesn't really need further elaboration.

This doesn't make a lick of sense to me. So you're saying interesting ideas shouldn't explored? What? I legitimately don't understand this.

Heck, even aside from all that, there's the practical standpoint. The champ cant even adequately fight Kass. The gods destroyed something that massively outclassed Kass. The champ has no reason to belive that there's anything he can do to even affect the gods.

All the champ has to do is spread word that the gods are actually wraiths. You really think the soul suckers don't care about people finding out the people they worship are soul suckers?

Really though, I don't know why you seem so dismissive towards one of the few actually very interesting ideas the game brings forth. This would actually make the story have way more stake, get the player more invested, and be a really cool twist for whenever they would reveal it. It would be a massive wasted opportunity if they didn't run with this idea, considering it's one of the more novel ones for the game. Would make me wonder why they even thought of the idea if they weren't planning to do something with it.