VN Others Completed Double Homework [Ep. 19] [Palmer/Love-Joint]

[ZenGarden]

I get not wanting to release for free anymore due to the dropping subscriber rate, but sometimes I wonder if some people just got tired of the unrealistic melodrama that plagued DfD and this game. Admittedly, I tuned out after DfD, and never played this game because I was hoping someone would come out and say "It's great". But the reactions were more "This Dennis shit is pissing me off", which led me to believe it was just more of the same.

As far as how long it's been since a release was (Patreon vs. Free), this is all easily gathered from the blog history on Love-Joint's site (all dates are mm/dd/YYYY):

EP | Patron | Free | Delay (AS OF Oct. 15, 2021)

Eplg 2 | 1/31/2021 | | (258+)
Eplg 1 | 12/30/2020 | | (290+)
19 | 12/5/2020 | | (315+)
18 | 9/19/2020 | 05/07/2021 | 231
17 | 8/1/2020 | 02/26/2021 | 210
16 |7/1/2020 | 12/24/2020 | 177
15 | 6/1/2020 | 11/06/2020 | 159
14 | 5/1/2020 | 08/30/2020 | 122
13 |4/1/2020 | 07/17/2020 | 108
12 | 3/1/2020 | 06/12/2020 | 104
11 | 2/1/2020 | 05/04/2020 | 94
10 | 1/1/2020 | 03/12/2020 | 72

 

[Corambis]

I get not wanting to release for free anymore due to the dropping subscriber rate, but sometimes I wonder if some people just got tired of the unrealistic melodrama that plagued DfD and this game. Admittedly, I tuned out after DfD, and never played this game because I was hoping someone would come out and say "It's great". But the reactions were more "This Dennis shit is pissing me off", which led me to believe it was just more of the same.

As far as how long it's been since a release was (Patreon vs. Free), this is all easily gathered from the blog history on Love-Joint's site (all dates are mm/dd/YYYY):

EP | Patron | Free | Delay (AS OF Oct. 15, 2021)

Eplg 2 | 1/31/2021 | | (258+)
Eplg 1 | 12/30/2020 | | (290+)
19 | 12/5/2020 | | (315+)
18 | 9/19/2020 | 05/07/2021 | 231
17 | 8/1/2020 | 02/26/2021 | 210
16 |7/1/2020 | 12/24/2020 | 177
15 | 6/1/2020 | 11/06/2020 | 159
14 | 5/1/2020 | 08/30/2020 | 122
13 |4/1/2020 | 07/17/2020 | 108
12 | 3/1/2020 | 06/12/2020 | 104
11 | 2/1/2020 | 05/04/2020 | 94
10 | 1/1/2020 | 03/12/2020 | 72

Oh, the melodrama really got to me. Back when DH started I upped my monthly support then to $20/month because I liked the game so much. I recognized the drama in DfD and saw it as pointless, but it was something I could overlook. Then it came on at a higher level much earlier on in DH, and I absolutely hated Dennis and what he did to the game. I also just didn't like the protagonist. His back story was all drama that most people saw from the beginning as not really being his fault, but he obsessed over it. And he just let bad stuff happen to him, while at the same time basically using the women around him emotionally without giving anything back. We were only a couple of updates in when I dropped my support back down to $10.

But the visuals were awesome, even if the interface was painful. I liked- nay, loved almost all of the female characters. Hated pretty all of the men, protagonist included. It was written well on a technical level, but horribly as a story where we should want to identify with the protagonist and want him to succeed, or to be able to enjoy ourselves without the devs throwing a drama bomb in just because.

I was kind of on autopilot towards to last update, especially with the new drama bomb they offered us in episode 18. I also was honestly thrown by a lot of the story choices prior to that where suddenly every love interest seemed to have a secret in their background that made little sense.

I did keep subscribing until the first update of Shale Hale Secrets came out. Wasn't as impressed with the graphics from the previews, but had high hopes that they would take the criticism building during DH to heart. Instead, it was drama from the very start, with the protagonist once again saddled with a Tragic Backstory and a quite possibly purely imaginary disability that sucked the fun out of playing him and made the first update feel like it was in slow motion. I dropped my support out of frustration then. As I mentioned, I've gone back to the $10 level now as more of a show of support, but honestly have no real interest in checking out the updates after the first. Maybe I'll hear something about the game to draw me back at some point, or I'll once again just stop supporting it. We'll see.

Most of the people wanting episode 19 and the epilogues have probably never paid one dollar to support the game though. For all it's faults, it's easily worth a measly $10 to get in there and see how it ends, plus partially pay the devs back for the past fun. I'm sure there are people out there that somehow can't possibly come up with $10 on a one time basis, but I find that hard to believe. I'm sure they spend more than that on stuff they don't need and is even more fleeting than a video game. I think it's more they don't want to when they think they can get it for free. I worked with a guy at a convenience store one time that made good money from two jobs because he was a workaholic (recovering alcoholic, for context, which seems to turn people in workaholics so they aren't alone with their thoughts). Drove a really nice car, had a nice house. Ate at nice restaurants when he wanted. But he'd also go dumpster diving after our vendors would leave to recover the expired sandwiches and other food they had thrown away after they'd come in to check the shelves each week. He was better than that in so many ways, but he couldn't get around the idea that he was getting something for free, even if it was something he could easily afford otherwise. He'd go hungry rather than actually pay for a sandwich he'd happily pull out of the garbage for free the next day, and brag about it as he was eating it.

tl;dr DH is in my opinion a heavily flawed game that is still worth some support, because it does succeed on a lot of levels, and for me definitely delivered on some sexy fun. If people are on the fence about paying $10 to see the ending, go for it. It's only $10. You get the epilogues too. You support the devs of a small, possibly struggling game company. To me it would be an easy call assuming I already hadn't spent a good chuck of money support this game and DfD. It was a lot of money over time, but I did get a lot of enjoyment out of it.

 

[BloodyMares]

But any promises came from Palmer, and were never enforceable to begin with. You can't enforce a promise unless there is something of value being exchanged by both sides, or "quid pro quo" in legal terms. Now you've got the remaining people at Love-Joint trying to move things forward with a game that actually is brining them in money, although I suspect not nearly as much as DH was. The $10 that seems like such a lot of money to many of the people here? It probably means a lot to the people at Love-Joint too, especially when it had to be divided several ways. Their focus is going to be on Shale Hill Secrets and also trying to develop beyond that. If I were them, I'd never give out the remaining stuff for DH. At this point no one is going to go, "okay, I finally played the entire game. Now I'm ready to support." The main point of giving out free updates some time after they came out privately was to get people to support the game to get them in a more timely manner. So that they could actually afford to make them and crazy things like that. I don't think the older model of "enough people will willingly pay to allow us to eventually just release the entire thing for free" isn't going to work any more. The ratio of supporters to freeloaders has dropped considerably.

Your logic is sound when it comes to pure numbers and salesmanship. EA would no doubt hire you. But there's also other factors impacting numbers, like PR and reputation. If they never release Double Homework for free, then it would be a very bad PR and won't win them any appreciation points from Palmer fans like myself. In fact, the boycott is a more likely outcome because not only would they break Palmer's promise (and their mourning/rememberance posts would sound very hypocritical and disrespectful), they would break their own, too (Zed did say that DH Ep19 IS going to be free, it's just in indefinite delay). If the devs backpedal on their own promises regarding their free releases and scam their loyal fans (who can't pay at the moment), for the sole reason that they want more money (definition of milking the game), who's to say they won't do the same in relation to their paying customers with their new game, too?

If they blame their financial issues and Palmer's death for having to start from scratch, then it makes them sound entitled. What makes them so different from all other developers that DO start with 0 patrons and yet still deliver on their words without any excuses? Many starting developers need to build up their own fanbase, they don't get the luxury of inheriting a precursor's fanbase (even if massively reduced in numbers it's still a great head start). If they want to keep and increase the numbers, then releasing Double Homework for free is a MUST-DO action of good faith that would salvage their reputation a bit. They can keep their new original game behind a paywall if they want to, it is entirely in their right if they feel it'll improve their performance. But Double Homework is not their IP to milk if Palmer's relatives don't benefit from it in any way.

 

[Corambis]

Your logic is sound when it comes to pure numbers and salesmanship. EA would no doubt hire you. But there's also other factors impacting numbers, like PR and reputation. If they never release Double Homework for free, then it would be a very bad PR and won't win them any appreciation points from Palmer fans like myself. In fact, the boycott is a more likely outcome because not only would they break Palmer's promise (and their mourning/rememberance posts would sound very hypocritical and disrespectful), they would break their own, too (Zed did say that DH Ep19 IS going to be free, it's just in indefinite delay). If the devs backpedal on their own promises regarding their free releases and scam their loyal fans (who can't pay at the moment), for the sole reason that they want more money (definition of milking the game), who's to say they won't do the same in relation to their paying customers with their new game, too?

If they blame their financial issues and Palmer's death for having to start from scratch, then it makes them sound entitled. What makes them so different from all other developers that DO start with 0 patrons and yet still deliver on their words without any excuses? Many starting developers need to build up their own fanbase, they don't get the luxury of inheriting a precursor's fanbase (even if massively reduced in numbers it's still a great head start). If they want to keep and increase the numbers, then releasing Double Homework for free is a MUST-DO action of good faith that would salvage their reputation a bit. They can keep their new original game behind a paywall if they want to, it is entirely in their right if they feel it'll improve their performance. But Double Homework is not their IP to milk if Palmer's relatives don't benefit from it in any way.

What you're mainly talking about is people who would never pay for the game still not paying for it, and using the fact that they're not getting it for free as promised as the reason to continue not paying for it. I don't think anyone currently supporting the game is going to boycott it because other people *aren't* getting it for free. If you're spending money on the game and other people are leeching off your doing so and making the game possible in the first place, you are not likely to give their argument much concern.

They may give the update out for free. As I've said before, the effort to do this really isn't the best use of their limited resources at this time. If Palmer were around, he might have changed his mind on the free thing too, given how things are now. Palmer is the one who started off with a free game like Sister Seduction or whatever it was, and later monetized his efforts. People could have called him a hypocrite for that, and some likely did. How dare he charge for a new game when the previous one was free? But Palmer built games he put pride into. He built a business he also likely felt pride in. He wants to see his games succeed. He also wants to see his business (or the new company that evolved from it) succeed. I would have to assume he wants to see his former partners succeed as well, and would respect them doing what they think is best. What he probably wouldn't be happy about is people repeatedly invoking his name in an attempt to discredit his friends and partners. He just didn't seem like the type of guy to go for that, and I'd argue people doing this are far more disrespectful of his memory and legacy than anything Love-Joint is supposedly doing.

 

[BloodyMares]

What you're mainly talking about is people who would never pay for the game still not paying for it, and using the fact that they're not getting it for free as promised as the reason to continue not paying for it. I don't think anyone currently supporting the game is going to boycott it because other people *aren't* getting it for free. If you're spending money on the game and other people are leeching off your doing so and making the game possible in the first place, you are not likely to give their argument much concern.

You falsely consider every patron to be a selfish person who only does so for the individual perks. However, there's a category of patrons like me, who fund the games to see them TO COMPLETION. By pledging, I don't "buy" the games if they're claimed to be eventually released for free. I merely help the developers finish their game. And they successfully have done so. Now, if I was a backer who invested into this FREE game, I would have a logical question: Where's the finished free game that was promised by its creator? They're not holding their end of the bargain. Palmer's relatives won't even be getting my money if I pledged now, because the new Patreon has nothing to do with him, so what's my motivation, as a fan of Palmer and the games HE made, to start paying Love-Joint for one game that they even refuse to release for free? Some people want to fund free finished games because they're becoming so rare. If I wanted to support someone with monthly subscription and exclusive access, I have many other, better options to choose from. Honest underdog developers that focus on making smaller but free games will always be my pick if I had to choose my next investment, it's just the matter of principal.

He wants to see his games succeed. He also wants to see his business (or the new company that evolved from it) succeed. I would have to assume he wants to see his former partners succeed as well, and would respect them doing what they think is best.

Please don't use his name in Present tense. We won't know any of those things for sure unless he can speak from the grave. Now it's just a matter of trust. And, well, Love-joint are losing my trust each passing day they continue to use Palmer's last game as their desperate attempt to get more support. They won't get any by holding out on Episode 19. It's not how you build your fanbase that wants to supports YOU. Palmer had such a large following for a reason, and I guess there's a reason why the current Love-joint are struggling, too. If I got desperate and paid my $10 for DH Ep19 now, do you know what will happen next? I'll cancel my pledge after getting my link and wouldn't come back. It's not like Double Homework has unlimited supply of desperate fans that will eventually decide to pay up their precious $10. Eventually they'll just have enough and move on. It's not how you convert your fanbase potential to consistently paying patrons. They should just focus on their current game, and build their fanbase around that, and let Palmer's name Rest in Peace already, otherwise it'll just keep being brought back in these types of arguments over and over again.

 

[Zephrah]

While I agree with both of you at certain points, I still stand by my thought that those who never payed for this game and don't do it now, but continue to bitch that it's not getting released for free, deserve this. It's fucking 10$, that you will most likely spend on other stupid and useless shit. Stop whining, pay the 10$ and get the resolution that you so desperately want.

Off-topic - I already stated what 10$ mean to me. What is it to you guys? Just curious

 

[cate.archer]

Well, this question is off topic too: Why is everyone so caring about, when 'friends' suddenly make out (or do more than that) whit each other ? I read in many of this games always 'shocking, you kiss your friend' or 'that is so bad' or 'you shouldn't do that' or something like that. Is there such a big gap between the english terms 'friend' and 'girl/boy-friend' ??? I don't really understand this, because english is not my mothers language. In the German language has the term 'Freund' (english 'friend') several meanings.
Can please anyone tell me the difference ?

 

[BloodyMares]

Well, this question is off topic too: Why is everyone so caring about, when 'friends' suddenly make out (or do more than that) whit each other ? I read in many of this games always 'shocking, you kiss your friend' or 'that is so bad' or 'you shouldn't do that' or something like that. Is there such a big gap between the english terms 'friend' and 'girl/boy-friend' ??? I don't really understand this, because english is not my mothers language. In the German language has the term 'Freund' (english 'friend') several meanings.
Can please anyone tell me the difference ?

The game is written with incest in mind and works much better if you replace "friend" with "sister" or "sister-in-law" if you want to feel better about yourself while playing the game. The default "friend" or "roommate"/"landlady" terms are only used to avoid Patreon's gaze that bans all incest-themed games. I once saw a game that used such censorship but had a sentence like "I guess we have our [landlady]'s genes!" that made it sound really stupid. If you're committing to it all the way with the dialogue and plot, at least include incest patch or go to subscribestar that won't ban you for incest.

It's fucking 10$, that you will most likely spend on other stupid and useless shit.

$10 is a combined cost of my Internet and phone pay and one-fourth of my monthly spending budget. I don't throw away such sums. Even if I did, I'd be efficient about it. I guess it's not much if you live in a rich country and have decent wage and are only supporting one creator. But what if you have several creators that you like and want to support? For $10, I can support 2 - 5 different creators who charge less for their content, and I'd get more worth for my money, too. It's all about competition and different offers. The competitive edge of Palmer for me was always a free nature of his games. Like, I could download and play Daughter for Dessert right now without having to pirate, how cool is that? For that purpose, I didn't mind the higher rates. I guess I wouldn't mind paying $10 for the fully completed game, but since 18 episodes have been released for free, I'd only pay to see an ending. I have no interest in their other game, so I don't want to pay for something I don't need or care about. And in my case, paying $10 just to see a DH ending, would be the definition of wasting money. I have other creators to support.

 

[Corambis]

You falsely consider every patron to be a selfish person who only does so for the individual perks. However, there's a category of patrons like me, who fund the games to see them TO COMPLETION. By pledging, I don't "buy" the games if they're claimed to be eventually released for free. I merely help the developers finish their game. And they successfully have done so. Now, if I was a backer who invested into this FREE game, I would have a logical question: Where's the finished free game that was promised by its creator? They're not holding their end of the bargain. Palmer's relatives won't even be getting my money if I pledged now, because the new Patreon has nothing to do with him, so what's my motivation, as a fan of Palmer and the games HE made, to start paying Love-Joint for one game that they even refuse to release for free? Some people want to fund free finished games because they're becoming so rare. If I wanted to support someone with monthly subscription and exclusive access, I have many other, better options to choose from. Honest underdog developers that focus on making smaller but free games will always be my pick if I had to choose my next investment, it's just the matter of principal.

I doubt very much that many patreons are as altruistic as you seem to think. At least not in your sense. They want the game to be completed, for themselves and the other supporters. They want the developer(s) to succeed. But when they're spending their money to see the game be made, I don't really think that have much concern for people that won't pay money for the game but still want to play it anyway, or for their repeated demands that they are entitled to it.

Please don't use his name in Present tense. We won't know any of those things for sure unless he can speak from the grave. Now it's just a matter of trust. And, well, Love-joint are losing my trust each passing day they continue to use Palmer's last game as their desperate attempt to get more support. They won't get any by holding out on Episode 19. It's not how you build your fanbase that wants to supports YOU. Palmer had such a large following for a reason, and I guess there's a reason why the current Love-joint are struggling, too. If I got desperate and paid my $10 for DH Ep19 now, do you know what will happen next? I'll cancel my pledge after getting my link and wouldn't come back. It's not like Double Homework has unlimited supply of desperate fans that will eventually decide to pay up their precious $10. Eventually they'll just have enough and move on. It's not how you convert your fanbase potential to consistently paying patrons. They should just focus on their current game, and build their fanbase around that, and let Palmer's name Rest in Peace already, otherwise it'll just keep being brought back in these types of arguments over and over again.

You sure make a lot of assumptions about what Palmer would be saying if he were still around today. We know what he said in the past, but not how he would react now. Yet you and others continually invoke his name in your own self-interests to try to guilt-trip Love-Joint into releasing stuff for free, and claiming what awful people they are for not doing so. We don't know what Palmer would do. But something tells me he'd be more on the side of his former partners on this than you.

And let's say you did pay your $10 and then not come back. Well, not a big loss it sounds like. You don't really seem to have any intent to support anything that you can get for free, and your idea of giving away things for free forever to attract new customers isn't really a viable business model. Most "free" updates from other games are cracks people did, or the developer releasing it publicly on their own just because they know if they don't, then someone else will. In fact, we often see developers with a "I put out a free copy after X days" get beat to the release by someone else. Part of the reason Palmer's games didn't have this issue is how they were written. People didn't seem to be able to crack them. If more developers could do that, they'd only give the first few updates as free, and that's it. We're seeing many developers starting to release their games on Steam after they've been completed. I want to say DH is one such game. In that case, it's a horrible, horrible idea to have a full version of the game out there for free.

The game is written with incest in mind and works much better if you replace "friend" with "sister" or "sister-in-law" if you want to feel better about yourself while playing the game. The default "friend" or "roommate"/"landlady" terms are only used to avoid Patreon's gaze that bans all incest-themed games. I once saw a game that used such censorship but had a sentence like "I guess we have our [landlady]'s genes!" that made it sound really stupid. If you're committing to it all the way with the dialogue and plot, at least include incest patch or go to subscribestar that won't ban you for incest.

I'll agree with you 100% there. Patreon's crackdown had been murder on the incest game niche, and I don't think it helped DH. Incest has always been the cornerstone of Palmer's games, and DH was looking to be a doozy with the two sisters who looked so hot. But it all kind of got diluted through the process you described. The game would have been so much better had they had a special patch for it that had the "right" dialogue. That could have been how they both free and paid versions to a certain extent. There's the free version with the roommates that comes out on a delayed schedule, but the "super-premium" version that has all of the taboo fun in it and written properly. I think not doing this for Shale Hale Secrets is also hurting that game. The games were once synonymous with their thoughtful but sexy exploration of incest. Now they're just another sex game.

$10 is a combined cost of my Internet and phone pay and one-fourth of my monthly spending budget. I don't throw away such sums. Even if I did, I'd be efficient about it. I guess it's not much if you live in a rich country and have decent wage and are only supporting one creator. But what if you have several creators that you like and want to support? For $10, I can support 2 - 5 different creators who charge less for their content, and I'd get more worth for my money, too. It's all about competition and different offers. The competitive edge of Palmer for me was always a free nature of his games. Like, I could download and play Daughter for Dessert right now without having to pirate, how cool is that? For that purpose, I didn't mind the higher rates. I guess I wouldn't mind paying $10 for the fully completed game, but since 18 episodes have been released for free, I'd only pay to see an ending. I have no interest in their other game, so I don't want to pay for something I don't need or care about. And in my case, paying $10 just to see a DH ending, would be the definition of wasting money. I have other creators to support.

That's your choice then. You choose who to support, and in so doing, who you have a right to see. You again get focused on the "I saw everything else for free, so why should I pay for the last update" idea, which demonstrates that for you it's not about supporting the devs, but instead about what you want. If anything, it's an argument against devs releasing so much for free as it is, because then people feel entitled for it all free. If you support other devs for a lesser amount, then you've probably spent far more than $10 on a game that likely has you less intrigued than the ending of DH. You could switch up your pledges for a month and free up the $10. Otherwise, if given your financial circumstances, you can't possibly come up with $10 one time... well, there are so many other games out there that are free, or are effectively free because unlike DH, they are very easily pirated. Stick to those and drop the idea that you're owed free updates by other developers, or repeatedly invoking Palmer's name to prove how you're owed free stuff. If seeing the last update actually means that much to you where you keep asking about it, and are willing to debate about it this much, I'm still having trouble seeing how wouldn't scrape together $10 over the course of several months for it. Except, of course, you're convinced you can get it for free if you hold out long enough. And that will very likely happen. Just not as fast as you would have liked though. And it would help if people didn't keep making the demand for it while making assumptions about what Palmer would have wanted now or saying how delaying the update disrespects him.

 

[cate.archer]

BloodyMares : Thank you for the answer. I've always thought it does matter with the language, now I know it matter with the 'Game-Rules'.....
Corambis : Thank you also for sharing your thoughs with me !!

 

[BloodyMares]

You again get focused on the "I saw everything else for free, so why should I pay for the last update" idea, which demonstrates that for you it's not about supporting the devs, but instead about what you want.

I occasionally supported Palmer out of gratitude for the games he contributed a lot into, including the ones he made on his own. And now he's gone. I would've easily paid those $10 if I knew that his relatives got that money. Love-joint without Palmer seems to be not for me. Simple as that.

If seeing the last update actually means that much to you where you keep asking about it, and are willing to debate about it this much, I'm still having trouble seeing how wouldn't scrape together $10 over the course of several months for it. Except, of course, you're convinced you can get it for free if you hold out long enough.

Debating about it is a matter of principle for me at this point, and has nothing to do with my personal need for the last update. I have none left. If I only cared about myself, I'd just unwatch this thread and move on instead of wasting my time on posts. After all, I've played everything Palmer had time to finish while he was still with us. I can accept that Ep18 was his final work. It might not be satisfying, but there's nothing satisfying in death, it's just sad truth. Would it be cool if DH's ending finally got released for free? Yes, absolutely, and I'd find the time to beat it in Palmer's memory as a final farewell and even pay Love-joint once more for being a good sport and finishing what Palmer started and delivering on his promise. But would I lose my sleep over it if they decide to prolong their free release for another year or so or even change their mind about releasing it at all? Not at all, I'd just move on with slight disappointment and ignore anything made by Love-joint going forward. It would obviously suck for all the OG fans who are still patiently waiting for the final release, but it's not my first time where I have to jump fandoms and leave my favorite franchises behind.

 

[Corambis]

I occasionally supported Palmer out of gratitude for the games he contributed a lot into, including the ones he made on his own. And now he's gone. I would've easily paid those $10 if I knew that his relatives got that money. Love-joint without Palmer seems to be not for me. Simple as that.


Debating about it is a matter of principle for me at this point, and has nothing to do with my personal need for the last update. I have none left. If I only cared about myself, I'd just unwatch this thread and move on instead of wasting my time on posts. After all, I've played everything Palmer had time to finish while he was still with us. I can accept that Ep18 was his final work. It might not be satisfying, but there's nothing satisfying in death, it's just sad truth. Would it be cool if DH's ending finally got released for free? Yes, absolutely, and I'd find the time to beat it in Palmer's memory as a final farewell and even pay Love-joint once more for being a good sport and finishing what Palmer started and delivering on his promise. But would I lose my sleep over it if they decide to prolong their free release for another year or so or even change their mind about releasing it at all? Not at all, I'd just move on with slight disappointment and ignore anything made by Love-joint going forward. It would obviously suck for all the OG fans who are still patiently waiting for the final release, but it's not my first time where I have to jump fandoms and leave my favorite franchises behind.

Then it's simple really. It should make no difference to you if the update gets released or not. You're not a fan of Love-Joint, and it sounds like you were less fond of Palmer's later stuff to begin with. I can't say I disagree with you on either point. I much more enjoyed Palmer's older stuff, and Love-Joint's solo stuff captures even less of that magic. You're still trying to turn this into "It's not about me and my not wanting to spend money, but I am just looking out for all the other non-paying fans" but hey, you be you. Honestly, unless they've contributed something, their combined desires and needs for free content add up to zero. The only people that deserve anything out of this are people that have actually supported Palmer or Love-Joint, or the devs themselves for making the games. I'm not saying a single person individually owes them money, especially if they don't play the game. But collectively, the devs deserve to make some money from their work from the people that are enjoying it. Few if any devs make games out there for free any more, although free versions do get out there for reasons covered earlier. The best games are the ones where the fans do pay their fair share, so that the devs can invest in more people and technology, and maybe make this their full-time job instead of their hobby. The only way that happens is if some people do support when they can. If some people can't ever support, fine. But then they deserve nothing and they need to expect and respect that.

 

[BloodyMares]

Then it's simple really. It should make no difference to you if the update gets released or not. You're not a fan of Love-Joint, and it sounds like you were less fond of Palmer's later stuff to begin with. I can't say I disagree with you on either point. I much more enjoyed Palmer's older stuff, and Love-Joint's solo stuff captures even less of that magic. You're still trying to turn this into "It's not about me and my not wanting to spend money, but I am just looking out for all the other non-paying fans" but hey, you be you. Honestly, unless they've contributed something, their combined desires and needs for free content add up to zero. The only people that deserve anything out of this are people that have actually supported Palmer or Love-Joint, or the devs themselves for making the games. I'm not saying a single person individually owes them money, especially if they don't play the game. But collectively, the devs deserve to make some money from their work from the people that are enjoying it. Few if any devs make games out there for free any more, although free versions do get out there for reasons covered earlier. The best games are the ones where the fans do pay their fair share, so that the devs can invest in more people and technology, and maybe make this their full-time job instead of their hobby. The only way that happens is if some people do support when they can. If some people can't ever support, fine. But then they deserve nothing and they need to expect and respect that.

I'm glad that we're heading to a mutual understanding. I have nothing against devs trying to make a buck for what they create. Entirely on board with it in fact. It's not like I want all devs to continue making their games for free and not ask for anything in return. Every dev is entitled to choose their own release model.

Some, like Tlaero and Mortze, choose to focus on making smaller games that are more like 1-2 hour movies than a 10-20 hour continued series, and work on it as long as they need to, and then release the finished games for free. I admire them for their approach and would like it if more people supported them, but I realize that it's not a standard anymore and wouldn't demand from other devs to do the same. Others, like MrDots, Eva Kiss and basically everyone else, openly state that their games are not published for free, and you need to pay for them in order to play them. They might only have free demos that you can check out, but anything extra costs a fee. I respect the honesty there and don't have anything against that. They openly state what they expect from you if you're interested in their games. They're sticking to their release model.

But, if, say, Tlaero and Mortze suddenly decided that they want more money for their effort, and stopped releasing their games for free without any official statement about changing their publishing model, then many fans would be left confused and frustrated, and rightfully so. If your fanbase became accustomed to expecting free stuff from you, then they at least deserve honesty if you decide to change your model. If Love-Joint really plan to stop releasing games for free, because it's financially disadvantageous and want to shift to paid model, then they have all rights to do that. But they need to be transparent about it and have an open statement addressing their fans who can't pay. It's not cool to constantly promise a free release but continue not delivering it, because in my eyes it's trying to sit on 2 chairs. Either do or don't, this teasing is only frustrating for the fans. And you can't really say that just because those fans couldn't pay anything, they deserve nothing. They deserve respect in the very least for their moral investment and support, their passion, contribution to discussions on their site (that generates traffic), perhaps sharing their love in other places that helped advertise the game etc. Basically they did everything to contribute in ways they could. You might disagree, but I think, that at least deserves some recognition and transparency. If Palmer promised to deliver Double Homework as a free game, and then Love-joint came out and reinforced that by making the same promise, then it's natural why many fans still expect it to be free and are wondering what's causing this massive delay that didn't normally happen, especially since the game is finished a long time ago. I don't think that, with all that in mind, it's fair to blame them for still wanting and waiting for the free game.

 

[Corambis]

I'm glad that we're heading to a mutual understanding. I have nothing against devs trying to make a buck for what they create. Entirely on board with it in fact. It's not like I want all devs to continue making their games for free and not ask for anything in return. Every dev is entitled to choose their own release model.

Some, like Tlaero and Mortze, choose to focus on making smaller games that are more like 1-2 hour movies than a 10-20 hour continued series, and work on it as long as they need to, and then release the finished games for free. I admire them for their approach and would like it if more people supported them, but I realize that it's not a standard anymore and wouldn't demand from other devs to do the same. Others, like MrDots, Eva Kiss and basically everyone else, openly state that their games are not published for free, and you need to pay for them in order to play them. They might only have free demos that you can check out, but anything extra costs a fee. I respect the honesty there and don't have anything against that. They openly state what they expect from you if you're interested in their games. They're sticking to their release model.

But, if, say, Tlaero and Mortze suddenly decided that they want more money for their effort, and stopped releasing their games for free without any official statement about changing their publishing model, then many fans would be left confused and frustrated, and rightfully so. If your fanbase became accustomed to expecting free stuff from you, then they at least deserve honesty if you decide to change your model. If Love-Joint really plan to stop releasing games for free, because it's financially disadvantageous and want to shift to paid model, then they have all rights to do that. But they need to be transparent about it and have an open statement addressing their fans who can't pay. It's not cool to constantly promise a free release but continue not delivering it, because in my eyes it's trying to sit on 2 chairs. Either do or don't, this teasing is only frustrating for the fans. And you can't really say that just because those fans couldn't pay anything, they deserve nothing. They deserve respect in the very least for their moral investment and support, their passion, contribution to discussions on their site (that generates traffic), perhaps sharing their love in other places that helped advertise the game etc. Basically they did everything to contribute in ways they could. You might disagree, but I think, that at least deserves some recognition and transparency. If Palmer promised to deliver Double Homework as a free game, and then Love-joint came out and reinforced that by making the same promise, then it's natural why many fans still expect it to be free and are wondering what's causing this massive delay that didn't normally happen, especially since the game is finished a long time ago. I don't think that, with all that in mind, it's fair to blame them for still wanting and waiting for the free game.

I have no problem with fans wanting the game for free. Free games were long a staple in the AIF community when it was all text. Piracy of course has been a thing for some time, and games like these seem to be where it still exists the strongest. But this wanting very often crosses over into "I am entitled to the game for free", or "you promised, and therefore you can't go back on it even though your promise is in no way legally binding". Obviously, Palmer never got his chance to release episode 19 for free. It wasn't really his episode at that point though, or his game any longer. Episode 19 was delayed partially because a lot was redone with it. An awful lot has changed creatively since then. Palmer had pushed the next two games coming out as a Detective Noir and a Cyperbunk story, which rapidly were scrapped as ideas. I was puzzled by the choice of games, and somewhat relieved when they disappeared. Palmer seemed determined to take things in different directions than in the past. I think he was going for stuff that could be released more commercially, but not necessarily true to his past works. We'll never know I guess.

If the devs decide not to release it for free, I have zero problem with that either. At this point, I don't think it's a good move financially or a good use of their resources. They've got a business to run, and bills to pay as a group and as individuals. They've bigger things to focus on than a small group of vocal fans who probably never have and never will spend a dime on supporting them. Giving away your product free as a business model just doesn't work unless you're finding some other way to make money on the deal. It only works if there's money coming in somehow.

I'll agree that if the decision not to release episode 19 is made or has been made, then they should say so. They don't owe anyone the information or have any legal right to do so, but it would be polite to do so. To release it is probably still on their list of to-do things, but not high up there. Do you make your new game's update even later while some dev or devs go back and edit Episode 19 and the epilogues? Do you even waste time discussing it seriously as a team when there are bigger fish to fry? There's still another game out there about the island that has been teased or on hold for a while. If not that, they must be planning beyond Shale Hill by now, or trying to come up with a game to do in tandem with it. Few groups of devs focus on just one game. If Shale Hale isn't doing so hot, it's even more important to have a backup plan going soon. If I were them, I'd be making something that returns to Palmer's roots that is heavily centered on incest, but skip the drama, even if it means doing this outside of Patreon or in conjunctions with sizeable "fan" patches. They have artwork that consistently ranges for really good to downright awesome, and good technical writing. By all rights they should be one of the top game developers out there versus other games that crank out updates with shoddy graphics and gameplay and laughable dialogue.

And through none of this does releasing episode 19 for free do anything meaningful for them. No one is going to go "wow, episode 19 was great" (because it was honestly mediocre, but it was a conclusion of sorts). It's not going to convince people to retroactively send in money at that point out of appreciation of the game. It's not going to make people support Shale Hall Secrets, which they can already play for free. All it does is get some people repeatedly asking when it will come out to stop asking, although at that point they'll probably complain about how they didn't like the free update, and when are the free epilogues coming out? Oh, and make a sequel to the game, not that we're going to support that either.

So yeah, it would be nice if they would say if Episode 19 wasn't going to be a free release (if that is the case), but just watch some people bitch and moan then if that happens. In lieu of such an announcement, it's probably best if people assume it's not coming out anytime soon, and not get too upset over their free stuff being late. If episode 19 is a big enough deal to anyone that they need to keep asking about it, it should be worth a really small amount of money to finally get that itch scratched.

 

[Son of Durin]

To play this game from the beginning, is it required to DL each release separately, or is the most recent release "cumulative"? Given how things are presented, I expect not, but just want to confirm before I decide to start it or not. I've seen the PH recordings of play and am really most interested if we see

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. That would be very appealing.

 

[Corambis]

To play this game from the beginning, is it required to DL each release separately, or is the most recent release "cumulative"? Given how things are presented, I expect not, but just want to confirm before I decide to start it or not. I've seen the PH recordings of play and am really most interested if we see

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. That would be very appealing.

You need each update individually. Any given update just gives you access to that updates info, and I'm not sure if they're playable on their own, even with the special app to update your choices from previous updates.

 

[cxx]

To play this game from the beginning, is it required to DL each release separately, or is the most recent release "cumulative"? Given how things are presented, I expect not, but just want to confirm before I decide to start it or not. I've seen the PH recordings of play and am really most interested if we see

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. That would be very appealing.

suggested to play browser versions since unlikely that ep19 and epis get converted to unofficial offlines.

 

[cxx]

checked bonus scenes thru and yes there was some very spoilery. this was 1 of best scenes (best were about what happened to dennis but that's big spoiler).

 

[Son of Durin]

suggested to play browser versions since unlikely that ep19 and epis get converted to unofficial offlines.

Only use PC for this, so that wouldn't be a problem. Thanks for info, though.

 

[markus T]

suggested to play browser versions since unlikely that ep19 and epis get converted to unofficial offlines.

Thats unfortunate...I guess ill never se how it ends...