VN Ren'Py Eruption Imminent [v0.5.1] [MorriganRae]

[Hungover00]

Not sure if it's the most probable, but it feels like there's some other motive than to just prepare Ashe, because having her try to push shit with Vanessa only because the blackmailer wanted to see her fail doesn't really fit the 'prepare' angle too well. It feels more like someone either toying with her or wanting her to get hurt in a similar way that they were hurt.

I think the push with Vanessa was to show her that it's okay to fail, and the world won't collapse. It's a cornerstone of CBT (Cognitive behavioral therapy), from my understanding, to follow some of those negative thought patterns to their ultimate conclusion and show that they aren't as bad as our mind predicts, through its anxiety. And Ashe is pretty happy with how her date went with Vanessa, except the anxiety of having to report (or lie about) her failure to the blackmailer. So I do think that fits with the blackmailer preparing Ashe. Rejection is a natural part of life, and dating; often times it isn't a person rejecting you, but the time/place/context.

Well, at this point we're again wondering what level of intimacy this person has with Ashe in that case, since you can't really forcefully lower the walls of someone with severe self-image issues and anxiety, and if this person truly knew Ashe then they would know it.
Though if this person only superficially knew Ashe or knew Ashe through someone else, it would make a bit more sense. That being said, it doesn't really feel benign enough to be aimed as a learning process for Ashe, yes it's very tame but there's still enough malice in there (the whole Vanessa thing) that makes me think that it's either someone a bit malicious that's enjoying their new toy, or someone who does want Ashe to feel shitty.

Who said anything about 'force?' The blackmail is coercing Ashe, there's no goon pushing her around, there's no gun against a loved one's head. She's being pressured, she's being convinced that this isn't as bad as the other. The way I'm reading it, the blackmailer is giving Ashe a tough-love push out of her comfort zone (exposure therapy?) to quiet down the Chicken Little part of her brain. And it seems to be working. I'm not seeing the malice you are.

Damn, that's two therapy related techniques I'm hypothesising. Didn't Ashe have a therapist in her younger teens? Did they die, or just...move or something?

Maybe the old therapist is involved as a consultant? Or their files were acquired? Hmm...

 

[Ciaran8023]

I think the push with Vanessa was to show her that it's okay to fail, and the world won't collapse. It's a cornerstone of CBT (Cognitive behavioral therapy), from my understanding, to follow some of those negative thought patterns to their ultimate conclusion and show that they aren't as bad as our mind predicts, through its anxiety. And Ashe is pretty happy with how her date went with Vanessa, except the anxiety of having to report (or lie about) her failure to the blackmailer. So I do think that fits with the blackmailer preparing Ashe. Rejection is a natural part of life, and dating; often times it isn't a person rejecting you, but the time/place/context.

But that still doesn't work with the previous blackmail aswell as the fact that the blackmailer had no qualms sending the gym pics to her boss, that is directly punishing a failure. That's my issue with there not being much of a red thread between the three instances is that if you only look at the date with Vanessa, you can extrapolate that, but within the context of the others it just falls apart.
If the blackmailer wanted to 'prepare' Ashe, what would the buttplug have been for? If they know Ashe then they likely already know that she's pretty perverted, as while she doesn't exactly flaunt it, just her behaviour when talking about it sort of solidifies it as she only turns bashful if that talk is directed towards her in any capacity.
And trying to prepare her for being sexual with the blackmailer absolutely wouldn't work with Ashe's mentality.

The blackmailer also didn't exactly show her that it was okay to fail, just that the blackmailer wanted her to fail. If you're following CBT, you would follow up with a LOT of talk regarding what just happened, why it happened and to really delve into the gritty details but it's clear that the blackmailer doesn't really give a shit about that.

There are just too many inconsistencies to say that the blackmailer is someone who wants Ashe to further develop, because there are a lot of other commands that would have made a lot more sense in that regard than just two inherently selfish ones and the last one being more for the shits and giggles and/or to hurt her outright. Atleast to me this doesn't make much sense, it's too much of a leap.

Who said anything about 'force?' The blackmail is coercing Ashe, there's no goon pushing her around, there's no gun against a loved one's head. She's being pressured, she's being convinced that this isn't as bad as the other. The way I'm reading it, the blackmailer is giving Ashe a tough-love push out of her comfort zone (exposure therapy?) to quiet down the Chicken Little part of her brain. And it seems to be working. I'm not seeing the malice you are.

Damn, that's two therapy related techniques I'm hypothesising. Didn't Ashe have a therapist in her younger teens? Did they die, or just...move or something?

Maybe the old therapist is involved as a consultant? Or their files were acquired? Hmm...

Coercion is being forced, but instead of violence it's a subtle threat of repercussion, it is still the act of forcing someone to do something they do not want to do but through words and threats instead.
The one with Vanessa is what I'd definitely call malicious, because none of her anxiety stems from rejection, it stems from self-hatred (due to being different) and people finding out that she's different. Having someone pushing her to sex only to be rejected because they wanted her to be rejected is very far from trying to get Ashe to start getting around her issues because it isn't related to her issues.

It's sort of like making someone drink water because they're afraid of water, it isn't aiming at the core issue because sure, Ashe is scared of being intimate but that fear isn't related to rejection. This is the main reason why I don't think that the person blackmailing is actually wanting Ashe to develop and get over her issues.
Either that or the person blackmailing her doesn't actually understand her issues and thinks her issues are related to rejection, but if that was the case then the only one we have information on that has dealt with how Ashe handled rejection is Rachel, and I don't want to open that can of worms nor do I really want to entertain the thought as I already dislike that character.


Ashe and Rachel did both have a therapist and IIRC they just moved away, but I'd have to go back and check because I can't fully recall with certainty.

 

[Hungover00]

But that still doesn't work with the previous blackmail aswell as the fact that the blackmailer had no qualms sending the gym pics to her boss, that is directly punishing a failure. That's my issue with there not being much of a red thread between the three instances is that if you only look at the date with Vanessa, you can extrapolate that, but within the context of the others it just falls apart.
If the blackmailer wanted to 'prepare' Ashe, what would the buttplug have been for? If they know Ashe then they likely already know that she's pretty perverted, as while she doesn't exactly flaunt it, just her behaviour when talking about it sort of solidifies it as she only turns bashful if that talk is directed towards her in any capacity.
And trying to prepare her for being sexual with the blackmailer absolutely wouldn't work with Ashe's mentality.

The blackmailer also didn't exactly show her that it was okay to fail, just that the blackmailer wanted her to fail. If you're following CBT, you would follow up with a LOT of talk regarding what just happened, why it happened and to really delve into the gritty details but it's clear that the blackmailer doesn't really give a shit about that.

There are just too many inconsistencies to say that the blackmailer is someone who wants Ashe to further develop, because there are a lot of other commands that would have made a lot more sense in that regard than just two inherently selfish ones and the last one being more for the shits and giggles and/or to hurt her outright. Atleast to me this doesn't make much sense, it's too much of a leap.


Coercion is being forced, but instead of violence it's a subtle threat of repercussion, it is still the act of forcing someone to do something they do not want to do but through words and threats instead.
The one with Vanessa is what I'd definitely call malicious, because none of her anxiety stems from rejection, it stems from self-hatred (due to being different) and people finding out that she's different. Having someone pushing her to sex only to be rejected because they wanted her to be rejected is very far from trying to get Ashe to start getting around her issues because it isn't related to her issues.

It's sort of like making someone drink water because they're afraid of water, it isn't aiming at the core issue because sure, Ashe is scared of being intimate but that fear isn't related to rejection. This is the main reason why I don't think that the person blackmailing is actually wanting Ashe to develop and get over her issues.
Either that or the person blackmailing her doesn't actually understand her issues and thinks her issues are related to rejection, but if that was the case then the only one we have information on that has dealt with how Ashe handled rejection is Rachel, and I don't want to open that can of worms nor do I really want to entertain the thought as I already dislike that character.


Ashe and Rachel did both have a therapist and IIRC they just moved away, but I'd have to go back and check because I can't fully recall with certainty.

My immediate guess would be they switch between carrot and stick to keep Ashe off balance, motivated, and nervous. Intermittent rewards mixed in with other conditioning. In my mind I don't think the blackmailer is benevolent (only out to help Ashe), but may well be benign (not out to hurt Ashe, and might help in the long run). But they are motivated by selfish desires.

I don't think the assumption that getting Ashe to try and sleep with Vanessa is 'more for the shits and giggles' is established yet, beyond a theory. We're all trying to read into what the blackmailer's motivations might be, and that's fine, but I don't agree with that conclusion or supposition.

I'm using 'force' in the sense where it overpowers any reasonable autonomy Ashe might have, where I think you're using it in a way to describe the pressure and energy to push Ashe to take a proposed action. Ie. Ashe has no choice vs. Ashe has choices, but one is heavily incentivised to be preferable.

I don't think it's as simple as mistaking Ashe's issues as fundamentally about rejection, though I do think the fear of rejection is part of the mosaic of Ashe's issues. But it's the lack of confidence, the self-hatred, the mis-measuring of all social interactions to always have Ashe be less than, or worthless. The blackmailer could be trying an incremental approach to chipping away at those negative beliefs about herself and how others view her. It's more of a complicated web, than a fulcrum and a lever, situation.

And yeah, re: Therapist, I'm not seeing any name that jumps out on the character list. Might not have made the cut.

Overall, I think it's too early to say much definitively about the nature of the blackmailer and their goals for Ashe, but it's fun to hypothesise.

 

[Ciaran8023]

My immediate guess would be they switch between carrot and stick to keep Ashe off balance, motivated, and nervous. Intermittent rewards mixed in with other conditioning. In my mind I don't think the blackmailer is benevolent (only out to help Ashe), but may well be benign (not out to hurt Ashe, and might help in the long run). But they are motivated by selfish desires.

Oh they're absolutely selfish, but I think the question boils down to how well this person knows Ashe, because to someone as riddled with anxiety as Ashe is and the nature of it, all three blackmails thus far have all been the stick. When someone's been anxious for basically their entire life and avoid any and all intimate connection or even social gatherings, there are no real 'carrots' to be given through a blackmail scenario.
My thoughts when looking more into the potential how or why of the blackmails and the blackmailer in question, it definitely came off more as a person who's enjoying a new toy rather than someone having a grand scheme of trying to get Ashe to come to terms with her issues and work on them, mainly due to the context of the first two blackmails being very selfish and the third one being very questionable.

I don't think the assumption that getting Ashe to try and sleep with Vanessa is 'more for the shits and giggles' is established yet, beyond a theory. We're all trying to read into what the blackmailer's motivations might be, and that's fine, but I don't agree with that conclusion or supposition.

I was using "shits and giggles" as an intermedian as I don't really think that the blackmailer cared that much. I think the date with Vanessa was more just a happy coincidence that coincided with the blackmailers want to jerk Ashe around a bit and see how she reacted. Just seems like the person enjoys Ashe's reactions rather than the actual conclusion of anything being ordered, which again makes it difficult to say that the blackmailer wants anything out of Ashe than just entertainment.

I'm using 'force' in the sense where it overpowers any reasonable autonomy Ashe might have, where I think you're using it in a way to describe the pressure and energy to push Ashe to take a proposed action. Ie. Ashe has no choice vs. Ashe has choices, but one is heavily incentivised to be preferable.

Yeah, I do believe that's the disconnect, but as noted with her anxiety, I believe coercion is force to her as people finding out about her being a duplo is a 'world ending' scenario in her mind. I could've worded it a lot better.

I don't think it's as simple as mistaking Ashe's issues as fundamentally about rejection, though I do think the fear of rejection is part of the mosaic of Ashe's issues. But it's the lack of confidence, the self-hatred, the mis-measuring of all social interactions to always have Ashe be less than, or worthless. The blackmailer could be trying an incremental approach to chipping away at those negative beliefs about herself and how others view her. It's more of a complicated web, than a fulcrum and a lever, situation.

Oh absolutely, no situation regarding mental health issues is ever anything easy, it's always a tangled ball of yarn with no clear beginning or end.
That being said, if they did know what Ashe's issues were and them having a vested interested in making her better, a far more logical command would be something like "You will go out to a bar and pick up a girl, and make sure to make out with her and get her number before the night is over" or something similar. The blackmailer instead asked something that they knew would be impossible simply because they wanted to see Ashe fail.
Even if we're going by the theory that they want to incrementally approach things, having her face rejection and potentially blowing up a relationship with one of the few people that have started to treat Ashe a bit better atleast is pretty egregious. For someone as anxious and as much of a social recluse as Ashe is, having people close to her matters a lot, so potentially grenading that is another one of the reasons as to why I think the blackmailer is either out to hurt her and isolate her or the blackmailer doesn't actually fully know what Ashe's issues are.

And yeah, re: Therapist, I'm not seeing any name that jumps out on the character list. Might not have made the cut.

Overall, I think it's too early to say much definitively about the nature of the blackmailer and their goals for Ashe, but it's fun to hypothesise.

All I recall is that the therapist was namedropped as "Ms/Mrs. <insert name here>". I don't think we got a first name but I distinctly recall seeing A name.

And yeah, it's definitely fun to try and dig into this, but yeah as I noted aswell, I think we need more blackmails to happen before we can fully tell what the endgame and nature is of the blackmailer. Too little to go on right now.

 

[BaDikGirl]

All I recall is that the therapist was namedropped as "Ms/Mrs. <insert name here>". I don't think we got a first name but I distinctly recall seeing A name.

The Doctor named by Rachel, if I wrote it down correctly which I believe I did, is Dr. Kagawa, but Rachel mentions she retired.

If the blackmailer wanted to 'prepare' Ashe, what would the buttplug have been for?

Like I said in my post from months ago, it would be to show Ashe that she isn't in control of her body, and to condition her to get used to the idea of using it when and how she's told. Just a thought though.

 

[Ciaran8023]

The Doctor named by Rachel, if I wrote it down correctly which I believe I did, is Dr. Kagawa, but Rachel mentions she retired.

That's the one!
And yeah, now that I remember the name, it was mentioned that she retired.

Like I said in my post from months ago, it would be to show Ashe that she isn't in control of her body, and to condition her to get used to the idea of using it when and how she's told. Just a thought though.

It's a possibility, it would go against the idea of the blackmailer having any positive ideas for Ashe and would be in line with the selfishness for sure.
Not entirely sure if I'm buying that it was the most logical way to go about enforcing that idea however, it could have been just as easily enforced by a regular buttplug. It being a remote-controlled vibrating one just sort of fuels the idea I had that the blackmailer much more enjoys seeing Ashe's reactions and how she squirms rather than the actual end result of any of this, especially since they were spying on the date with a drone or whateverthefuck.

I suppose it could be both, but it feels like there would be a bit more thought behind where they actually want to go with it if it was both premeditated to slowly mould Ashe into something else and because they like toying with Ashe.

Now that I spent some more time to think about it, I'm thinking even moreso that this is more just a toy/whim scenario than anything premeditated due to the timing. The blackmails are incredibly sporadic and if you want to enforce behavioural changes, you generally want a gradual increase in intensity and consistency. The fact that these blackmails are so sporadic leads me to believe that it's more of a 'crime of passion' so to speak.