HTML Abandoned Female Agent [v1.20.1p] [Crushstation]

[Arkady]

if you're not satisified then just tell crush what you want. be very direct. ie. "i want the next update to include the beginning of the bangkok storyline."

The thing is, that's been absolutely not working for near on three years. And I won't believe it worked this time until I see Bangkok. Not new avatar art, Bangkok. Not simplified character creation, Bangkok. Not cut Dubai for no legitimately good reason, Bangkok.

The potential positive about the current state is maybe Crush really is cutting back on pointless bloat and will stay away from that from here on in... but never having listened to people warning him against pointless bloat and now wasting more time correcting unnecessary mistakes is not overall a good thing.

 

[Beggarman]

Just to be clear, her bunker allies are raping her every hypnosis session, right?

I didn't get the impression they were using the hypno sessions as an excuse to run a train on her. Sounds like she comes out of it aroused but I'd expect some comment on her finding an odd fluid or feeling weirdly sore afterwards. As far as I could see, her clothes weren't even disheveled. That said...

Funny that you should mention that, I don't think they do but I don't think the 'bunker guys' (AKA JTA Neptune) are 'good guys' here with what happened to the last agent, their agent insertion plan, filming her in the safe house (you just know all the men will be watching) and the hypnosis!

Yeah, I agree the dudes there are doing something fishy. Frankly, the hypno stuff isn't necessary (any reluctance could have been worked into her backstory, the stuff like "you've gotta wear a short skirt on base" is definitely off), and there's no obvious mission reason to record her fucking the random dudes. I'm not sure they'd go into full on blackmail or anything, but I reckon there's a few more copies of the tapes going around than necessary, and think having a slutty co-worker around is a good perk. That said, I'm not so sure about the last agent - IIRC she was just an asset*, unless you're referring to someone else I've missed, and I think most of the insertion plan made sense for the mission.

*although I could see that being a lie if the actual game has hard game-overs and describes the "lost asset" along the description of your last character. Describing her as an asset to the new agent would explain why they they already have a lead on where the target is, but also gloss over why they went missing: They weren't properly trained, we don't know enough about them, they weren't one of us, and didn't have much useful info beyond what we already have, so we didn't bother looking for them much. I'm more than willing to bet that the cavalry ain't coming for our agent unless the target's with them and that, short of actually being outed as a spy, they'd let her be taken to keep the café open as an opportunity to catch the target. In the latter case, the operation's fucked anyway, but I don't know if they'd risk more lives to extract her.

 

[Dracis3D]

The potential positive about the current state is maybe Crush really is cutting back on pointless bloat and will stay away from that from here on in

That positive is currently true, I offered to write a scene for the game. Not just any scene but something I liked. I'm experienced with HTML Twine games and making branching choices and dealing with variables. The bottomline is currently there are a lot, which makes writing any scene advancement hard, plust at the time Crush was undecided on a sex engine (say Newlife style) or custome written scenes per event. I think Crush realised the impact when writing the last Dubai update, and this is why I'm positive about the recent changes, it will make writing new scenes a lot easier. Don't get me wrong there are still a few design choices about the game after the prologue which are really important, once those decisions are made it will become clear the games future. I get the rest of your points, and understand the frustration. I've got some thoughts about how it ended up in this postion but Crush's explanation pretty much covers it (Make Female Agent Great Again).

That said, I'm not so sure about the last agent - IIRC she was just an asset*, unless you're referring to someone else I've missed, and I think most of the insertion plan made sense for the mission.

Your right with the last agent bit, they just spoke to her and gave a codename (FALLOUT). Fallout then just dissappeared and if an intelligence agency can't find her, nor the local police (random murder) it probably is not a good sign. What amuses me with the current game is you can create an agent with +3 Int, Looks & Agility from an elite background and she agrees to work in a cheap brothel, for an unknown period of time for a semi regular visitor. A brothel which they can't stake out/bug fully and their insider/asset just dissappeared (probably dead or kidnapped). For $60-80k pa (guessing a junior int op/analysis pay), or they could recruit a number of local girls. Games and storylines eh!

 

[Arkady]

Sharpx19, if you take a step back for your moment to compare your stupid rant to the actual arguments why there is indeed reason to optimistic by Dracis3D, maybe you'll be able to figure out why people seem to think you're the dev's troll alt account.

 

[Arkady]

No, we do not agree. Unlike you bloody fool, I understand it's essential to get through Crush's thick skull and get him to accept that he fucking needs to listen to feedback not coming from yes men. An excess of only listening to feedback he liked got us here, and looking at recent Patreon posts/comments, he's already falling back into that trap.

On the "Kok Blocked" update two weeks ago, he dropped out of every single conversation with commenters that had the audacity to not accept his first response as spot-on. Seriously, if Crush actually had a good plan this time around, or had finally learned to listen to constructive criticism, he should have offered hornguy6 an intelligent response to his long reply.

That would've been a much more productive, trust-building use of his time than trolling the trolls with his new-found ignore function on here...

 

[andy6915]

I didn't get the impression they were using the hypno sessions as an excuse to run a train on her. Sounds like she comes out of it aroused but I'd expect some comment on her finding an odd fluid or feeling weirdly sore afterwards. As far as I could see, her clothes weren't even disheveled. That said...


Yeah, I agree the dudes there are doing something fishy. Frankly, the hypno stuff isn't necessary (any reluctance could have been worked into her backstory, the stuff like "you've gotta wear a short skirt on base" is definitely off), and there's no obvious mission reason to record her fucking the random dudes. I'm not sure they'd go into full on blackmail or anything, but I reckon there's a few more copies of the tapes going around than necessary, and think having a slutty co-worker around is a good perk. That said, I'm not so sure about the last agent - IIRC she was just an asset*, unless you're referring to someone else I've missed, and I think most of the insertion plan made sense for the mission.

*although I could see that being a lie if the actual game has hard game-overs and describes the "lost asset" along the description of your last character. Describing her as an asset to the new agent would explain why they they already have a lead on where the target is, but also gloss over why they went missing: They weren't properly trained, we don't know enough about them, they weren't one of us, and didn't have much useful info beyond what we already have, so we didn't bother looking for them much. I'm more than willing to bet that the cavalry ain't coming for our agent unless the target's with them and that, short of actually being outed as a spy, they'd let her be taken to keep the café open as an opportunity to catch the target. In the latter case, the operation's fucked anyway, but I don't know if they'd risk more lives to extract her.

It's just, I've been on the hentai game rodeo before. A lot. I know a corruption plot when I see it. It ticks all the boxes. Using brainwashing, forcing her to do lewd and sexual acts until she gets used to it and likes it, taking many nude pictures and videos, using hyponosis to turn her into an exhibitionist by making her wear less and less clothes on base over time, and 'sessions' that she never has no memory of but somehow leaves her very turned on and leaves one wondering what they entail (everyone on the base plugging all her holes at the same time being my guess). Not to mention how the base people all approve of any dialogue that reinforces her slow corruption into a whore. And I've played some brainwash corruption games too, and this is exactly how you do it. Do it slow, careful, change their perception of normal until you no longer need to hypnotize to make her a cum dump because being a cum dump IS her normal now. Expect it, a plot twist where it's discovered that she's the base's cum toilet during these 'sessions'. So our character is a woman who is being fucked without consent, being head fucked until she likes and thinks about nothing but sex, being corrupted into being nothing but a living flesh light. Is that a complaint? Nope, it's FUCKING HOT. Realizing the entire game is just a sex corruption brainwash plot is exactly what kept me playing, and I enjoyed speeding that along further by making her like what she's becoming. If this game ever gets passed the prologue, it has potential to be one of the best corruption games I've ever seen. I am lewding the hell out of her, and the fact that she is basically being brainwashed into it makes it even hotter. I got some sick kinks... Guess that's why I am here.

 

[laddiestlad]

People have posted here and openly admitted they are just trolling now

just like crush with bangkok, eh

 

[Arkady]

Ignoring trolls is not trolling .

Posting about it, however, can be, and at least one of Crush's postings was quite obviously intended as counter-trolling.

It's only logical to wait and see if that path leads to where we all want it to go in the long term.

No, it's not. I presume you didn't really bother to try and get what hornguy6 is saying? Because that guy has some valid points that, Crush really should try to come up with equally good replies to. Because if he can't, his plan of reworking everything, again, with the assurance that's necessary to finally get to Bangkok, again, isn't actually good enough, again.

 

[Dracis3D]

if Crush actually had a good plan this time around, or had finally learned to listen to constructive criticism, he should have offered hornguy6 an intelligent response to his long reply

I'm no spokesperson for Crush but I took a look at what Hornguy said in the Kok Blocked post. It probably is worth noting that Crush said in the post regarding Bangkok "Anand, the reason I don't want to progress it from here is that I wrote it into a bad position that is forcing me into a direction that is the wrong direction for Bangkok. There is a draft floating around of my intended "Intro to Bangkok" section and it's FUCKING BORING"

I don't think Crush can properly answer HG's questions until the start of Bangkok design is agreed, design being different to content/scene ideas. An example of design vs. scene is the Dubai sex scene in the current game, the design meant a shit load of work went into it but the player might have 10 pages of narrative (I've not counted). Stripping down the game will mean it won't take long to hit the Bangkok stage and that design decision will be settled one way or another. Hence I'm positive.

As for HG's comments on skills there are a few that really bite you in the arse depending on the design. More the 'sex skill', kinks and character traits which can turn scenes into pyramids of options to suit each different sets of traits. So if you have 'sex skill' at 1 - 10 x 'Looks' at 1-3 with a 'dice roll' to determine the next stage of a sex scene you might end up with 1-10 clicks until orgasm and different comments for how was it for you. Or a situation where the player has to click 'get fucked' 20 times. But you could have a trigger for Devilfish built in when the player equals Sex Skill XYZ as that would be a good game timer. Mainly due to it would be randomly set in character creation / lifepath on how many partners you slept with. The point in this case is that sex skill can vary wildly in the lifepath depending if you pick 10 partners, or 2.

 

[Arkady]

I don't think Crush can properly answer HG's questions until the start of Bangkok design is agreed,

I think that's the crux of it, though. I'm pretty sure HG is trying to imply that as long as the actual (Bangkok) game's design isn't agreed on, nothing Crush is doing right now can really get the game closer to Bangkok. And if Crush can't comment because he hasn't actually made the one fucking essential decision, how the hell can he be sure he's not just once again be doing things a new, improved shade of wrong?

 

[Ripe]

Which is actually what the problem is... for three years now, Crush is building his game backwards. He started with character creation, giving us all those nice stats and skills to play with without any idea how to use those skills when the game reach Bangkok. And now he's reworking that portion of the game while still not having clear idea of how Bangkok portion will play out... almost guaranteeing that once he does start working on Bangkok (in 2021 or 2022) he'll need to rework character creation once again.

Expecting that this rework will create different result than any of the previous reworks did is... well, Einstein put it quite nicely what that is.

People have been telling him to focus on Bangkok and work on that for over two years now. Instead he is working on everything BUT Bangkok.

 

[asdfasdf12341234ACSACA]

I don't get what about the game design isn't agreed on?

For example:

- What's the timescale of the game? Do you plan each day ahead? Or each week? Do you have an hourly/minute based time system where you are free to do everything?

- Even further into the timescale: How long, on average (in game-universe time) is one playthrough expected to last? One week, one month, one year?

- How much agency do you have in what you do each timeslot? Do you click "go to the beach" and a long pargraph about how you enjoyed it and then you're back at home and showered plays? Or do you just go to the beach and are presented with more options there?

- Related to the previous point: How much agency does the player have in the brothel sex scenes? Are they fully dynamic scenes? Do you have a generic "skip" option that tallies your stats on the day?

- What's an outline of the plot look like? Is it something along the lines of "slowly climb through society's ranks" or a much simpler "hope the client shows up and you're equipped to deal with him in the brothel"?

- How deep is the money aspect going to run? Will money just be a "make sure you meet your weekly expenses" or "You can choose every small thing you spend money on, including food and clothes"

- Are injuries/"disabilities" planned in any way into the game? Whether they are sex related or not, this goes into the broader "what are the risks the player faces when making decisions?"

- Overall, what's the split of sex/plot gameplay going to look like? Are you expected to spend ~80% of the time in sex scenes and 20% on plot/"free time", 50/50, 30/70?



These are just a few questions of the "bigger picture" that we still don't have an answer to (and I'm not sure Crush has the answers either, and keep in mind, the funny thing is they can change if you try doing one thing and find out it doesn't feel nice. That's what half of game development is about)

 

[Dracis3D]

I'm pretty sure HG is trying to imply that as long as the actual (Bangkok) game's design isn't agreed on, nothing Crush is doing right now can really get the game closer to Bangkok

Narrative CYOA story engagement, followed by a sandbox sex simulator, wrapped by a day by day simulator (to insert randomness) was the original design I believe at high level. The Dubai sex engine core mechanics (not the narrative) was going to take care of the sex engine. I've no idea of the planning for the Bangkok simulator, all I do know is that potentially those things can snowball with lots of events and become boring as you have 'hold' events (you lie on the beach sunning yourself). My interest was the sex engine as to write a scene, you may have to modify/call the sex engine especially if you want something.... kinky.

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(good post on the origional Bangkok high level view)

I expect Crush to make a decision on the sex engine when he gets to the club scenes on the rework, bin it and go for narrative or rebuild it.

I'm going to drop off posting on this thread for a bit, I'm not sure if I'm helping or hindering. I want this game to succeed and I don’t want to fall into nit-picking of design choices and re-works. I actually don’t envy Crush his current position with this as his full time job as it is complex.

 

[Arkady]

the game mechanics are great as is;

No, they're not. Main (Bangkok) game mechanics do not even exist yet. As far as I can tell, Crush doesn't even know what they are yet. At best, he'll have a workable sex engine after MFAGA; at worst, he'll have another misdesign not actually viable for getting to the game proper.

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(good post on the origional Bangkok high level view)

The thing is, that looks like a good enough concept - but I find nothing suggesting Crush ever actually got to the mechanical design side of it. I don't think he knows how the game is supposed to do these things! And if he doesn't, he doesn't actually know what capabilities systems such as the sex engine really need in terms of, just for starters, interfacing with hitherto undefined variables that actually track "main story" progress/direction.

Essentially "blindly" reducing complexity should yield systems that work well for the linear prologue, but they still might not be viable for day-to-day Bangkok. Not replying to HG, who was clearly trying to bring that issue up, to me suggests Crush either doesn't get the issue, or he simply doesn't care. Neither is good.

 

[MidaHanna]

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting things to change".

Crush has been working (and reworking and rereworking)prologue/character creation for 3 years without a clear plan of what Bangkok is going to be/look like, even admitting that he DID NOT have a story written already, or a plan of some kind, which is FUCKING BOLLOCKS.

He's going to rewrite the intro/prologue again, then when he eventually works on Bangkok's meat, the CORE of the game, he'll realize he's made lots of small mistakes or forgotten small stuff in the intro, which he will need to add overtime as he decides on the CORE gameplay. (Making yet another prologue rework). Crush doesnt know where he's going, which is something he should have decided on when he STARTED the project.

Now, he can try to build his game right, or he can make a new avatar and prologue update again and realize he needs to do it again when he actually starts working on what matters. Unfortunately, I think I know the answer and I don't like it.

Btw Crush if you're still reading this thread, WTF was up with the weird ass "update" post ? Still not answered that question.

 

[DbatRT]

The problem is that planning is impossible without practical application, the engine is developed for the needs and tasks that arise during the creation of the game, and not during planning, where you try to cover the vast, and so you miss a lot of things and still will redo everything.

There is an opinion that the current implementation of Bancock is bad, as well as that we have a bad prologue. But did anyone complain about the prologue and how it is described? No, we are all here because of the content that was written 3 years ago, and we are all waiting for exactly the implementation and quality that was 3 years ago, in other words, the direction has long been set, the only thing that is missing is the mechanics and engine, but as I wrote above, they will be developed while writing and working on the game, if you are not an expert with 8 years of experience, who has several similar games, then you will not be able to write the engine and mechanics in advance, no matter how much you think about it, because theory and practice differ greatly.

If Crush had started working 3 years ago, he would have finished developing the engine and mechanics long ago, because it is obviously much easier to develop and test when there is meat on the skeleton.

Crush is like an artist who has been looking at an empty canvas for 3 years, trying to work out the picture in his head as carefully as possible before drawing it. Although any artist will say that before drawing, he has a vague concept, which during drawing becomes overgrown with details in the course of work, but not before.

Spoiler: Just look at the sketches that artists draw and the final result.

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The rough shape is always polished in the process of working, you can't Polish what exists only in your head, because we have the effect of getting used to the image that you think or see, because of which we stop seeing flaws, which is why artists periodically mirror their drawing in the process of working to compensate for this effect.

As for the attitude, treat people the way you would like them to treat you, if you ignore them, you should not be surprised by the negative reaction.

 

[asdfasdf12341234ACSACA]

Crush is like an artist who has been looking at an empty canvas for 3 years, trying to work out the picture in his head as carefully as possible before drawing it.

I'd go further than that: Crush is the arist that pictures something in his head and then proceeds to go through every store in the city to find the right shade of blue, returning every other shade he purchases before he even tries it.

 

[Beggarman]

I'm gonna be honest; I think pretty much everyone here is right, at least to some degree, but I don't think we're going to ever really come to a full agreement. Crush probably does need to push on to Bangkok so he can get something testable. But if the current setup doesn't work for Bangkok, then changing that first does make sense. But what does and doesn't work only comes into view as it's tested.

It's... not really a Catch-22. I was going to call it that, but it's just an area where two tasks need doing. One should have been done ages ago, one's already been worked on a ton but still isn't ready. One of them alone could be pushed out but not particularly satisfy anyone until both are done.

Should we be further than we are by now? Yeah, probably. Should this have been better planned? Yeah, definitely*. What does that mean? I... don't know. I'm surprised it's taking this long to get what I assume is a fairly typical hub-and-spoke style Bangkok started, even with the different skill checks the game has. But, as I've said before, the whole "string patreons along" thing is more of a grift when you actually do no work. I don't think all this wasted work is a good, but it's not the worst thing ever, either - maybe it's bad decision making and could have been cut sooner, but better it be cut now than not at all.

Honestly I just want my next pinging in this topic to be towards an update of actual substance, lol. I'm not a patron so I don't exactly have any skin in the game and all this back-and-forth over shoulda/woulda/coulda is tiring.

*The game probably should have had a barebones "Create Character -> Intro Story -> Bangkok Hub -> [Assorted modular activities spoking off the Bangkok hub]" framework with a few character variances made ages ago, and areas of expansion noted as they're built up. Personally, I'd literally have just put the TWINE passages in with just a brief description of what's supposed to be there along with any code, with a searchable tag and comment if I think there could be an interesting alternate outcome or path or whatever. But then again, I never actually released anything in TWINE, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

 

[DbatRT]

Seems you guys want a fully functioning sex engine? IF THAT'S THE CASE... why all the bitching? Making a complicated sex engine takes time. Sounds like you don't want crush to focus on story. You want a DND designed sex engine?

What is a sex engine for you? Something like what Lilith-throne has?

Personally, I don't care, because the content that was at the very beginning, 3 years ago, worked perfectly for me, and I was completely satisfied with simple variations of scenes that worked without any engines and complex mechanics. Because it is not yet clear how the background of the character will work in sex scenes, it is quite possible that Crush in any case will have to write comments about some things manually, because it may happen that the generated text will be too clumsy.

 

[asdfasdf12341234ACSACA]

Didn't crush say he's getting rid of the timescale entirely? or something to that effect? not going to bother with counting minutes or something. All you need is morning, noon, afternoon, evening and night. Most these questions make the game sounds like a micro-management grind sandbox which is boring and I don't think will be fun.

You go to the beach and are presented with more options there, obviously. Nobody cares about going to the beach and paragraphs show saying you went to the beach. that's literally the worst type of game and you might as well not have had the beach option at all if you can't do anything specific there. If it was just some B.S designed to raise happiness or whatever. These questions are obvious to me.

Seems you guys want a fully functioning sex engine? IF THAT'S THE CASE... why all the bitching? Making a complicated sex engine takes time. Sounds like you don't want crush to focus on story. You want a DND designed sex engine?

Anyway if the sex scenes can be custom written each time. And if they can be dynamic enough/new enough each time that one won't feel repetitive to the other. Then that's great. And sometimes all you need to achieve that is some new avatars/scenes, and story... you don't actually need a complicated sex engine.

The outline of the plot is not just your life in the brothel. It's your life as a spy. IMO you should get side missions that do different things for you + you can advance the main plot by getting closer to certain clients where events happen outside the brothel as well. Like on a yacht or a different club, or a studio etc. I would even have side missions that are break and enter, don't be seen. other ones where you use your charm/looks. more dangerous types of rival gangs maybe or organizations? could even do double identity stuff where she goes undercover somewhere else where she needs to be respectable and the two roles of being a whore in a club and this respectable role clash.


I wouldn't go deep into micromanaging expenses. Just have rent and that's it. This isn't a "live on your own" finance game. Keep the focus away from grindy shit like that. If something ends up grindy it should be traits of your character. Like skills in sex, or clothing upgrades, exhibitionism, depravity, tattoos/piercings, hair/makeup/body modifications, hole stretching... keep the focus on the character.

Obviously money can be useful for buying clothes and other things character oriented i just listed. But people will be buying you clothes sometimes, or jewellery or taking you out to dinner or whatever else and spy equipment is covered by your government agency. You could use money to upgrade your living ie. better locations or renovations. Maybe to buy a motorcycle/moped. But this a question better answered when you write the damn story of the whole game...

In other words do the people you are spying on ever figure out who you are? will the game continue from that point? do you end up their slave? do you have to buy your own freedom? or maybe they dont find out who you are but decide they want better control of you because of some event you did that made them suspicious. So, maybe they kidnap a guy you got close to and started a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with there. or maybe it's a girl who became your best friend and you need to work for them etc. I don't know but the need for money in other areas usually develops as you write. Just write the damn game and everything falls into place. Stop trying to decide shit before anything is written.

But see, that's the thing, you're suggesting a lot of (fairly reasonable, and I agree with most!) design decisions that you can choose for the game, but Crush hasn't specified that's the way the game is going to be.
You're basically saying "I would like this and this and that" (nothing wrong with that), the problem is that you're also thinking "Yeah this is HOW the game is going to be", but Crush hasn't confirmed nor denied that.

For example, our views align with how the expenses should be handled, and I would love to have side missions, but again, there are many ways you can go about this, for example (assuming you decide what to do each day)

- During the day you have free time and do whatever for leisure. Nights are working hours, double the workload since it's whoring+keeping an eye on what happens. Weekends are (optionally) spy side missions
- Day is strictly spy missions, night is strictly brothel (with a chance to gain some extra information). Weekend is free time.
- Day is completely free. You can just not go to work if you've earned enough to support yourself. Or you might have to face some punishment if you have a quota (expenses aside) but don't meet it.


These are 3 relatively basic game design decisions that Crush has to make (if he hasn't already). All 3 are valid, each has their own flavour, pros and cons. But the thing is, we don't know which of those 3 (or anything completely different!) the team has chosen.