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DbatRT

Newbie
Apr 8, 2018
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Seems you guys want a fully functioning sex engine? IF THAT'S THE CASE... why all the bitching? Making a complicated sex engine takes time. Sounds like you don't want crush to focus on story. You want a DND designed sex engine?
What is a sex engine for you? Something like what Lilith-throne has?

Personally, I don't care, because the content that was at the very beginning, 3 years ago, worked perfectly for me, and I was completely satisfied with simple variations of scenes that worked without any engines and complex mechanics. Because it is not yet clear how the background of the character will work in sex scenes, it is quite possible that Crush in any case will have to write comments about some things manually, because it may happen that the generated text will be too clumsy.
 
Apr 3, 2019
282
879
Didn't crush say he's getting rid of the timescale entirely? or something to that effect? not going to bother with counting minutes or something. All you need is morning, noon, afternoon, evening and night. Most these questions make the game sounds like a micro-management grind sandbox which is boring and I don't think will be fun.

You go to the beach and are presented with more options there, obviously. Nobody cares about going to the beach and paragraphs show saying you went to the beach. :LOL: that's literally the worst type of game and you might as well not have had the beach option at all if you can't do anything specific there. If it was just some B.S designed to raise happiness or whatever. These questions are obvious to me.

Seems you guys want a fully functioning sex engine? IF THAT'S THE CASE... why all the bitching? Making a complicated sex engine takes time. Sounds like you don't want crush to focus on story. You want a DND designed sex engine?

Anyway if the sex scenes can be custom written each time. And if they can be dynamic enough/new enough each time that one won't feel repetitive to the other. Then that's great. And sometimes all you need to achieve that is some new avatars/scenes, and story... you don't actually need a complicated sex engine.

The outline of the plot is not just your life in the brothel. It's your life as a spy. IMO you should get side missions that do different things for you + you can advance the main plot by getting closer to certain clients where events happen outside the brothel as well. Like on a yacht or a different club, or a studio etc. I would even have side missions that are break and enter, don't be seen. other ones where you use your charm/looks. more dangerous types of rival gangs maybe or organizations? could even do double identity stuff where she goes undercover somewhere else where she needs to be respectable and the two roles of being a whore in a club and this respectable role clash.


I wouldn't go deep into micromanaging expenses. Just have rent and that's it. This isn't a "live on your own" finance game. Keep the focus away from grindy shit like that. If something ends up grindy it should be traits of your character. Like skills in sex, or clothing upgrades, exhibitionism, depravity, tattoos/piercings, hair/makeup/body modifications, hole stretching... keep the focus on the character.

Obviously money can be useful for buying clothes and other things character oriented i just listed. But people will be buying you clothes sometimes, or jewellery or taking you out to dinner or whatever else and spy equipment is covered by your government agency. You could use money to upgrade your living ie. better locations or renovations. Maybe to buy a motorcycle/moped. But this a question better answered when you write the damn story of the whole game...

In other words do the people you are spying on ever figure out who you are? will the game continue from that point? do you end up their slave? do you have to buy your own freedom? or maybe they dont find out who you are but decide they want better control of you because of some event you did that made them suspicious. So, maybe they kidnap a guy you got close to and started a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with there. or maybe it's a girl who became your best friend and you need to work for them etc. I don't know but the need for money in other areas usually develops as you write. Just write the damn game and everything falls into place. Stop trying to decide shit before anything is written.
But see, that's the thing, you're suggesting a lot of (fairly reasonable, and I agree with most!) design decisions that you can choose for the game, but Crush hasn't specified that's the way the game is going to be.
You're basically saying "I would like this and this and that" (nothing wrong with that), the problem is that you're also thinking "Yeah this is HOW the game is going to be", but Crush hasn't confirmed nor denied that.

For example, our views align with how the expenses should be handled, and I would love to have side missions, but again, there are many ways you can go about this, for example (assuming you decide what to do each day)

- During the day you have free time and do whatever for leisure. Nights are working hours, double the workload since it's whoring+keeping an eye on what happens. Weekends are (optionally) spy side missions
- Day is strictly spy missions, night is strictly brothel (with a chance to gain some extra information). Weekend is free time.
- Day is completely free. You can just not go to work if you've earned enough to support yourself. Or you might have to face some punishment if you have a quota (expenses aside) but don't meet it.


These are 3 relatively basic game design decisions that Crush has to make (if he hasn't already). All 3 are valid, each has their own flavour, pros and cons. But the thing is, we don't know which of those 3 (or anything completely different!) the team has chosen.
 

DbatRT

Newbie
Apr 8, 2018
62
28
What current implementation of Bangkok? The entire problem is that there isn't one.
I'm talking about Crush, he already had enough implementations in his head that we don't know about.

Sharpx19
I understand, and I'm developing a similar system in my head, and it's not easy, so far I'm coming to the conclusion that writing all the scenes manually will be much easier than generating them, you just need to organize them so as not to drown in various branches. But maybe I just didn't see a working example, obviously I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.
 

Beggarman

Member
Jan 14, 2018
412
752
I understand, and I'm developing a similar system in my head, and it's not easy, so far I'm coming to the conclusion that writing all the scenes manually will be much easier than generating them, you just need to organize them so as not to drown in various branches. But maybe I just didn't see a working example, obviously I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.
I feel like I've said this before, and I'm at risk of sounding like a pretentious arsehole, but: Sex engines are almost universally shit. Sex isn't just a disconnected description of all the actions people do until one or more people cum, but that's about all most engines can manage. They don't handle feelings (emotional or literal) well, don't have much in the way of nuance or understand what might be taboo, and the pool of available snippets runs dry fast. I don't think they're an unsolvable problem, but the amount of effort to do them well is almost always significantly more than just writing good scenes. Honestly, I think the most likely pipeline to something worthwhile is going to be getting OpenAI acting near-fluently and then getting it to understand emotion/tone to get a scene that's passable.

And yeah, I think my criticism does mostly apply to FA. I honestly think the sex engine bits are the least exciting parts of the game, and the only time they were used that I kinda liked was during the porn shoot after the wet T-Shirt contest where you lose all your options, making the scene feel that bit more threatening, which may not even have been the intention. The thrill-ing's better than the drilling, basically.

If you're developing a similar system in your head because you plan to make a game: Definitely write bespoke scenes. There's always ways to personalize and vary how it goes/reads if the scene's going to be replayed or reused, but it depends on how your game is structured/engine it's in/etc. I'd suggest keeping actual branches/choices to a minimum and use superficial personalization to keep them fresh between uses. A bespoke passage could end up looking as complicated as if it'd been written by a sex engine, but as everything's been built with specific passages in mind, should flow WAY better.
 
Apr 3, 2019
282
879
I feel like I've said this before, and I'm at risk of sounding like a pretentious arsehole, but: Sex engines are almost universally shit. Sex isn't just a disconnected description of all the actions people do until one or more people cum, but that's about all most engines can manage. They don't handle feelings (emotional or literal) well, don't have much in the way of nuance or understand what might be taboo, and the pool of available snippets runs dry fast. I don't think they're an unsolvable problem, but the amount of effort to do them well is almost always significantly more than just writing good scenes. Honestly, I think the most likely pipeline to something worthwhile is going to be getting OpenAI acting near-fluently and then getting it to understand emotion/tone to get a scene that's passable.

And yeah, I think my criticism does mostly apply to FA. I honestly think the sex engine bits are the least exciting parts of the game, and the only time they were used that I kinda liked was during the porn shoot after the wet T-Shirt contest where you lose all your options, making the scene feel that bit more threatening, which may not even have been the intention. The thrill-ing's better than the drilling, basically.

If you're developing a similar system in your head because you plan to make a game: Definitely write bespoke scenes. There's always ways to personalize and vary how it goes/reads if the scene's going to be replayed or reused, but it depends on how your game is structured/engine it's in/etc. I'd suggest keeping actual branches/choices to a minimum and use superficial personalization to keep them fresh between uses. A bespoke passage could end up looking as complicated as if it'd been written by a sex engine, but as everything's been built with specific passages in mind, should flow WAY better.
From what I've seen, the current (Dubai) sex engine (yes, the one that took months to develop) is "just" some basic randomness+character skills to decide whether you succeed (and get the handwritten passage where you succeed) or you fail (and you get the handwritten passage where you fail).

Basically, every scene needs to be written entirely, including variations of succeeding/failing in certain actions, and then your character's skills+some randomness decide which passages are presented.

I don't know if Crush is going to change that, if he intends to do that for the brothel scenes, or how it's going to play.
 
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Ripe

Active Member
Jun 30, 2017
912
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For an example within female agent.

Wet t-shirt contest = good, unique, choices based on if im exhibitionist or whatever else, story integrated.

vs.

Bring a new john home every night... repetitive... = less good. more skip button involved. the only unique thing was each guy had to be different; so one ugly, and one good looking and you had to go to different style club so different clothing... but beyond that? i will always skip this when i replay the game. i won't skip the wet t-shirt part despite having played it 3 times already.

make the scenes more like the wet t-shirt part.
I (and several others) have been trying to tell something like that to Crush on several occasions... that the actual brothel portion of the game will be a grind and something that will be skipped by almost every player. That having to play out bringing 5-10 johns to back room in brothel during every game day will became repetitive rather fast. And that because those scenes are unavoidable since the game will be about an agent working undercover in a brothel that they should be reduced to bare minimum (basically, a skill check to see if john was satisfied) and that he should focus on writing unique scene that take place there.

Crushstation's response: it won't be repetitive because each of those scenes will be unique and will play out different because john's will be different. And no matter how hard we all tried to explain that the problem is not in quality of those scenes but in their quantity (for a game lasting six months we're talking 750-1500 johns!) he still claimed that those scenes won't be a grind...
 
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DbatRT

Newbie
Apr 8, 2018
62
28
I think you need to look up what 'implementation' means. Vague ideas in your head are not the same as implementing those ideas.
When you have an idea, you start thinking about how to implement it in reality, this is the 'implementation' that is in your head. If you don't have it, you won't be able to implement your idea, because you don't know what to do.

Simply put, it is about theory and practice.

Beggarman
Yes, I also come to this conclusion, but the problem is that I don't want to make a linear history, and I don't want to connect different pieces of history through the if, if-else, else, case constructs and create a callback hell.

I also don't like systems based on character characteristics and getting scenes with them in mind, this often breaks the game for the player.

I want to get rid of all those awkward elements that I see in other games, when you have to wander for hours trying to meet the condition to cause a scene...

In any case, the scenes will be individual, the only problem is how to correctly connect, combine and organize them so as not to complicate the development.

I don't get how anyone can find that fun in a game. Shes having sex with people who don't matter, are just clients... etc. and exist for the purpose of "that's her job" or "here is a way to improve sex stats" or whatever else.
Well, it will work well in the context of the game showing how it is changing, and how the world reacts to it.

But these must be handwritten scenes. In General, sex itself does not mean anything, 90% of the pleasure is in our head, we like sexual activities with a secret agent, just because it is so unusual, as they say, the forbidden fruit is sweet. Therefore, for a scene to be interesting, it must have a backstory and a zest, and consequences. And accordingly, it is very difficult to provide these three basic elements for the scene to make sense. The engine should take into account the background, if there is one, or create it, take into account the highlight or create it, and create consequences, and preferably not in the form of numbers in statistics, but with some unique trace in history.

Therefore, generated Johns are not a good option, if the client in a brothel, for example, is a former teacher or an Agent's friend, then it is necessary that he does not just appear randomly in some place in the story. Here you need a balance between her modesty and sluttishness, you should not go to any extreme. If the teacher shows up too early, the Agent will not be able to show anything, because she will be shackled, and if he appears too late in the game, the Agent will already be a simple whore who does not worry about anything, in other words, the player and the main character have already burned out.

You can't just generate a scene anywhere in the story, because it doesn't have balance, backstory, zest, and consequences. An agent who is a whore, and a player who has already passed certain stages will no longer be aroused by foreplay and simple sex, it's like watching porn, you start with simple and move on to more and more depraved things, and you can't go back to watching simple things.

The brothel is only a small part of the story, there is no point in writing a separate generator for it. Each scene must be written by hand and be in its proper place.

The mechanics and engine of Lilith-throne are beautiful, but they pale against the background of handwritten and unique scenes with Amber, and the beautiful collar that she gives the player at the end shines much brighter than all the other game things in the game.
 
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Master of Puppets

Conversation Conqueror
Oct 5, 2017
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When you have an idea, you start thinking about how to implement it in reality, this is the 'implementation' that is in your head. If you don't have it, you won't be able to implement your idea, because you don't know what to do.
'Not able to implement the idea because you don't know what to do' sounds exactly right. Or have you seen some posts that none of the rest of us have, where he reveals that he does know what Bangkok will look like?
 

Cyberpunk20

Newbie
Jul 8, 2020
49
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Ok, did not know it... I saw the latest version here is 1.6.2... :unsure:
Usually a mod has to update the thread but none of them frequent this one. If they policed it like they did the CoC II one, half of the comments on the previous 50 pages would be deleted. Crushstation isn't coming back on the foreseeable future either, so there is nobody to update it anymore.
 

Beggarman

Member
Jan 14, 2018
412
752
There's a few pathways to getting a topic updated, but if a mod isn't active in the topic, you can file a report to get it updated. The report dialogue says to report the post that contains the update, so:

1.6.3 (Public ver) is out, you can get it off Crush's Patreon page .

Then you just report the update, like this:
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
And eventually someone will be along to update.

I've also had luck just reporting the top-level post and putting the link in there if I didn't want to advertise that I got the link.
 
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