HTML Abandoned Female Agent [v1.20.1p] [Crushstation]

3.50 star(s) 126 Votes
Discussion Reviews (126)
DbatRT

DbatRT

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Master of Puppets said:
What current implementation of Bangkok? The entire problem is that there isn't one.
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I'm talking about Crush, he already had enough implementations in his head that we don't know about.

Sharpx19
I understand, and I'm developing a similar system in my head, and it's not easy, so far I'm coming to the conclusion that writing all the scenes manually will be much easier than generating them, you just need to organize them so as not to drown in various branches. But maybe I just didn't see a working example, obviously I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.
 
Beggarman

Beggarman

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DbatRT said:
I understand, and I'm developing a similar system in my head, and it's not easy, so far I'm coming to the conclusion that writing all the scenes manually will be much easier than generating them, you just need to organize them so as not to drown in various branches. But maybe I just didn't see a working example, obviously I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.
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I feel like I've said this before, and I'm at risk of sounding like a pretentious arsehole, but: Sex engines are almost universally shit. Sex isn't just a disconnected description of all the actions people do until one or more people cum, but that's about all most engines can manage. They don't handle feelings (emotional or literal) well, don't have much in the way of nuance or understand what might be taboo, and the pool of available snippets runs dry fast. I don't think they're an unsolvable problem, but the amount of effort to do them well is almost always significantly more than just writing good scenes. Honestly, I think the most likely pipeline to something worthwhile is going to be getting OpenAI acting near-fluently and then getting it to understand emotion/tone to get a scene that's passable.

And yeah, I think my criticism does mostly apply to FA. I honestly think the sex engine bits are the least exciting parts of the game, and the only time they were used that I kinda liked was during the porn shoot after the wet T-Shirt contest where you lose all your options, making the scene feel that bit more threatening, which may not even have been the intention. The thrill-ing's better than the drilling, basically.

If you're developing a similar system in your head because you plan to make a game: Definitely write bespoke scenes. There's always ways to personalize and vary how it goes/reads if the scene's going to be replayed or reused, but it depends on how your game is structured/engine it's in/etc. I'd suggest keeping actual branches/choices to a minimum and use superficial personalization to keep them fresh between uses. A bespoke passage could end up looking as complicated as if it'd been written by a sex engine, but as everything's been built with specific passages in mind, should flow WAY better.
 
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A

asdfasdf12341234ACSACA

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Beggarman said:
I feel like I've said this before, and I'm at risk of sounding like a pretentious arsehole, but: Sex engines are almost universally shit. Sex isn't just a disconnected description of all the actions people do until one or more people cum, but that's about all most engines can manage. They don't handle feelings (emotional or literal) well, don't have much in the way of nuance or understand what might be taboo, and the pool of available snippets runs dry fast. I don't think they're an unsolvable problem, but the amount of effort to do them well is almost always significantly more than just writing good scenes. Honestly, I think the most likely pipeline to something worthwhile is going to be getting OpenAI acting near-fluently and then getting it to understand emotion/tone to get a scene that's passable.

And yeah, I think my criticism does mostly apply to FA. I honestly think the sex engine bits are the least exciting parts of the game, and the only time they were used that I kinda liked was during the porn shoot after the wet T-Shirt contest where you lose all your options, making the scene feel that bit more threatening, which may not even have been the intention. The thrill-ing's better than the drilling, basically.

If you're developing a similar system in your head because you plan to make a game: Definitely write bespoke scenes. There's always ways to personalize and vary how it goes/reads if the scene's going to be replayed or reused, but it depends on how your game is structured/engine it's in/etc. I'd suggest keeping actual branches/choices to a minimum and use superficial personalization to keep them fresh between uses. A bespoke passage could end up looking as complicated as if it'd been written by a sex engine, but as everything's been built with specific passages in mind, should flow WAY better.
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From what I've seen, the current (Dubai) sex engine (yes, the one that took months to develop) is "just" some basic randomness+character skills to decide whether you succeed (and get the handwritten passage where you succeed) or you fail (and you get the handwritten passage where you fail).

Basically, every scene needs to be written entirely, including variations of succeeding/failing in certain actions, and then your character's skills+some randomness decide which passages are presented.

I don't know if Crush is going to change that, if he intends to do that for the brothel scenes, or how it's going to play.
 
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Ripe

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Sharpx19 said:
For an example within female agent.

Wet t-shirt contest = good, unique, choices based on if im exhibitionist or whatever else, story integrated.

vs.

Bring a new john home every night... repetitive... = less good. more skip button involved. the only unique thing was each guy had to be different; so one ugly, and one good looking and you had to go to different style club so different clothing... but beyond that? i will always skip this when i replay the game. i won't skip the wet t-shirt part despite having played it 3 times already.

make the scenes more like the wet t-shirt part.
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I (and several others) have been trying to tell something like that to Crush on several occasions... that the actual brothel portion of the game will be a grind and something that will be skipped by almost every player. That having to play out bringing 5-10 johns to back room in brothel during every game day will became repetitive rather fast. And that because those scenes are unavoidable since the game will be about an agent working undercover in a brothel that they should be reduced to bare minimum (basically, a skill check to see if john was satisfied) and that he should focus on writing unique scene that take place there.

Crushstation's response: it won't be repetitive because each of those scenes will be unique and will play out different because john's will be different. And no matter how hard we all tried to explain that the problem is not in quality of those scenes but in their quantity (for a game lasting six months we're talking 750-1500 johns!) he still claimed that those scenes won't be a grind...
 
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DbatRT

DbatRT

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Master of Puppets said:
I think you need to look up what 'implementation' means. Vague ideas in your head are not the same as implementing those ideas.
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When you have an idea, you start thinking about how to implement it in reality, this is the 'implementation' that is in your head. If you don't have it, you won't be able to implement your idea, because you don't know what to do.

Simply put, it is about theory and practice.

Beggarman
Yes, I also come to this conclusion, but the problem is that I don't want to make a linear history, and I don't want to connect different pieces of history through the if, if-else, else, case constructs and create a callback hell.

I also don't like systems based on character characteristics and getting scenes with them in mind, this often breaks the game for the player.

I want to get rid of all those awkward elements that I see in other games, when you have to wander for hours trying to meet the condition to cause a scene...

In any case, the scenes will be individual, the only problem is how to correctly connect, combine and organize them so as not to complicate the development.

Sharpx19 said:
I don't get how anyone can find that fun in a game. Shes having sex with people who don't matter, are just clients... etc. and exist for the purpose of "that's her job" or "here is a way to improve sex stats" or whatever else.
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Well, it will work well in the context of the game showing how it is changing, and how the world reacts to it.

But these must be handwritten scenes. In General, sex itself does not mean anything, 90% of the pleasure is in our head, we like sexual activities with a secret agent, just because it is so unusual, as they say, the forbidden fruit is sweet. Therefore, for a scene to be interesting, it must have a backstory and a zest, and consequences. And accordingly, it is very difficult to provide these three basic elements for the scene to make sense. The engine should take into account the background, if there is one, or create it, take into account the highlight or create it, and create consequences, and preferably not in the form of numbers in statistics, but with some unique trace in history.

Therefore, generated Johns are not a good option, if the client in a brothel, for example, is a former teacher or an Agent's friend, then it is necessary that he does not just appear randomly in some place in the story. Here you need a balance between her modesty and sluttishness, you should not go to any extreme. If the teacher shows up too early, the Agent will not be able to show anything, because she will be shackled, and if he appears too late in the game, the Agent will already be a simple whore who does not worry about anything, in other words, the player and the main character have already burned out.

You can't just generate a scene anywhere in the story, because it doesn't have balance, backstory, zest, and consequences. An agent who is a whore, and a player who has already passed certain stages will no longer be aroused by foreplay and simple sex, it's like watching porn, you start with simple and move on to more and more depraved things, and you can't go back to watching simple things.

The brothel is only a small part of the story, there is no point in writing a separate generator for it. Each scene must be written by hand and be in its proper place.

The mechanics and engine of Lilith-throne are beautiful, but they pale against the background of handwritten and unique scenes with Amber, and the beautiful collar that she gives the player at the end shines much brighter than all the other game things in the game.
 
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Master of Puppets

Master of Puppets

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Oct 5, 2017
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DbatRT said:
When you have an idea, you start thinking about how to implement it in reality, this is the 'implementation' that is in your head. If you don't have it, you won't be able to implement your idea, because you don't know what to do.
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'Not able to implement the idea because you don't know what to do' sounds exactly right. Or have you seen some posts that none of the rest of us have, where he reveals that he does know what Bangkok will look like?
 
C

Cyberpunk20

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Jul 8, 2020
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Lorandriel said:
Ok, did not know it... I saw the latest version here is 1.6.2... :unsure:
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Usually a mod has to update the thread but none of them frequent this one. If they policed it like they did the CoC II one, half of the comments on the previous 50 pages would be deleted. Crushstation isn't coming back on the foreseeable future either, so there is nobody to update it anymore.
 
Beggarman

Beggarman

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There's a few pathways to getting a topic updated, but if a mod isn't active in the topic, you can file a report to get it updated. The report dialogue says to report the post that contains the update, so:

1.6.3 (Public ver) is out, you can get it off Crush's Patreon page
You must be registered to see the links
.

Then you just report the update, like this:
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
And eventually someone will be along to update.

I've also had luck just reporting the top-level post and putting the link in there if I didn't want to advertise that I got the link.
 
cantwakeup111

cantwakeup111

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Mar 3, 2018
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Sharpx19 said:
Yep. It's a grind no matter how good the mechanics or the writing are because it's a repetitive task with people who are not even characters in the story. So breaking it down...

We can break down repetition:
a) type of sex (Missionary/doggystyle etc.)
b) location (Brothel/Bed)
c) type of character (brothel client instead of a named story character)
d) purpose (to get paid/satisfy)

The only way to make a repetitive tasks like this interesting is to change each one of these factors each time, to basically surprise the reader (or hell even surprise the MC) or to keep the factors the same but have some sort of escalation. Escalation is what most games do to sort of mitigate the problem. She starts with handjobs for example, then works her way up to more daring types of intercourse. But this only really addresses point a) type of sex. everything else stays the same, so everything else repeats.

If it was me? I wouldn't even do what you said and have a skill check. I'd make it so she somehow starts serving special clients that have to do with the story. You can even make some of the clients side stories too that she can meet outside of the brothel. IE. every interaction with them now becomes meaningful because they are actually a named character instead of c) type of client (a brothel client).

To put it another way what makes games enjoyable is if they are meaningful to play. The whole point of all this customization crush built was to increase *meaningfulness* and to re-state what someone else said here (Beggarman)... emotion in the game matters too. reducing a sex scene to some dice rolls and mechanics won't be enough you need writing to elevate the emotions.
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nah man the brothel part wont be a grind. it's not gonna be a thing at all. 4 months gets us bug fixes and QoL improvements. new content will require at least 1-2 years.

i shouldn't complain too much tho, i have really enjoyed what it currently there and have spent a good 2-3 hours on it
 
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3.50 star(s) 126 Votes