HTML Female Agent [v1.20.1p] [Crushstation]

[Nope]

Nope, says that the timeline I gave seems reasonable... so like is this going to be the standard we expect and hold crushstation to going forward? I think it's fair, but I could be wrong, and I am curious what others feel is reasonable. Here is a review of what I wrote...

* My number is 4 large updates a year (so 45+ minutes of play time each). Each update taking around 3 months maximum. I expect side-quests to take no longer than 2 months. Am I the delusional one, or do we all agree? or do people have different ideas on timing? *

Not like you can hold him to anything, nor does getting any consensus among pirates really matter. A consensus among patrons could probably hurry him up if they really wanted but I think only maybe 10% of them actually care. The other 90% posting shit like "take your time". There is a difference between what I think is reasonable and what I think Crush will realistically do. If I could work 2-3 days a week and keep patrons from complaining that is 100% what I would do.

 

[Deleted member 2631085]

But I am curious what you think a fair/respectable update schedule is: given the dev team size, the type of game, coding, art, and writing.

Dev team size: Two? Crush and 'the lovely Victoria'

Type of game: pretty linear VN (in its present state)

Coding: Pretty simple and easy-to-learn. This is an HTML-based browser game. Have you created websites in HTML? It's not rocket science. HTML became the foundation of WWW in the days of Web 1.0, exactly because it was simple and easy for millions to pick up.

Art: provided by the external artist Victoria, not Crush

Writing: well, that's what Crush mainly does

Taking all this into account, plus the episode size and the fact that Crush is one of the Patreon-developers who is above the threshold of being able to work on his creation full time, I would say 1-2 months per an episode would be perfectly reasonable.

Another Twine HTML-game I am following on this site, Masters of Raana, has released three updates in 2023 (I think).

* My number is 4 large updates a year (so 45+ minutes of play time each). Each update taking around 3 months maximum. I expect side-quests to take no longer than 2 months. Am I the delusional one, or do we all agree? or do people have different ideas on timing? *

Three months per episode is how I arrived at my prediction he will be able to finish the side quests this year and that's about it. I assume the first one will be ready in the summer... June maybe. The next one in early autumn and the third one by Christmas... I don't know why the side-quests should be quicker.

He might very well hit a writer's block, because the heroine hooking up with a random Russian dude she met when she was high does not flow naturally or something... but hopefully those beat sheets or whatever will help him to get into more of the type of workflow he envisaged when he posted the schedule last autumn.

 

[ffive]

Coding: Pretty simple and easy-to-learn. This is an HTML-based browser game. Have you created websites in HTML? It's not rocket science. HTML became the foundation of WWW in the days of Web 1.0, exactly because it was simple and easy for millions to pick up.

Please, don't speak nonsense, especially when you pretend to speak with authority. This is Twine/Sugarcube game, and the code has next to nothing to do with HTML. It may be rendered through HTML, but it doesn't make it a "HTML game" any more than C# Unity game is a "DirectX game" because it happens to use that backend to deliver its visuals.

 

[Deleted member 2631085]

Please, don't speak nonsense, especially when you pretend to speak with authority. This is Twine/Sugarcube game, and the code has next to nothing to do with HTML. It may be rendered through HTML, but it doesn't make it a "HTML game" any more than C# Unity game is a "DirectX game" because it happens to use that backend to deliver its visuals.

You are right I stand corrected and caught out. Sorry. I don't have experience of Twine/Sugarcube.

Still, the tag for this game says (HTML) Female Agent (v.1.17.2), whereas for a Ren'Py game it would say (Ren'Py) or (RPGM) for an RPGM game... or (Unity) for a Unity game.

 

[ffive]

Still, the tag for this game says (HTML) Female Agent (v.1.17.2), whereas for a Ren'Py game it would say (Ren'Py) or (RPGM) for an RPGM game... or (Unity) for a Unity game.

Yeah, that's true. I guess it's just a pretty convenient way to telegraph "this game runs in a web browser" and a typical set of features these come with. "Twine" wouldn't tell most of people very much.

 

[CassieBare]

Coding: Pretty simple and easy-to-learn. This is an HTML-based browser game. Have you created websites in HTML? It's not rocket science. HTML became the foundation of WWW in the days of Web 1.0, exactly because it was simple and easy for millions to pick up.

Speaking of this...I'm working on a release of a FA inspired Twine game but definitely need some coding help, most expressly on the HTML side of things so that it looks good. Anyone here amongst the dissenters/complainers that have this skillset that want to work on it with me?

 

[TheDeviant]

Still, Sugarcube is also pretty straight forward even for a coding beginner. Especially for basics - that's why 90% of this sites games with an 'html' tag use it.

 

[ffive]

I don't think Masters of Raana is 100% comparable to Female Agent...

Perhaps most importantly, MoR is a sandbox so it has luxury of requiring far less writing than FA --which is very much a linear story-- to provide meaningful updates. (it can require more coding for new mechanics and features, but code takes less writing and, being hidden under the hood, developers can get away with not polishing it as much since few people will take a note of it)

 

[rbx4]

My big issue with your 1-2 months is that I actually think the lower end of that is unrealistic. The art in this game is hand drawn, and as a very slow artist myself, it would take me about a day for each illustration? I don't think Masters of Raana is 100% comparable to Female Agent... So without more information, I would still lean toward 2-3 months per update instead? Which still brings it to 4 major updates a year 3x4 = 12, but it depends, I think there is actually room each year for a 5th update since some updates might be faster than others.

But lets say we disagree by a 1 whole month, ultimately do you feel 4 updates a year isn't too bad? I think so, and 6 would be great of course.

As a creator, I never listen to non-paying people telling me to hurry. However, I will say that products are not improved by focus on speed. If paying subscribers say something, well, even then, not everyone really understands what they want. Good product made at my pace is probably better than inferior product made at the pace requested by an external person who is not involved. I fully acknowledge that Crush should do whatever they want with FA, as long as subscribers are fine with it.

As a subscriber (I still subscribe to a few creators), I take a completely subjective account of how I feel about the creator's work at the time. I don't do the math--if I want to keep subscribing, I do. If I don't want to, I click it off.

Finally, I will make an aside that reasonable discourse can only improve this thread. If the general tone of the thread was as reasonable as this particular discussion (let's ignore a couple of posts in another discussion that didn't involve you or this page), I wouldn't wonder what is going on with this thread anymore.

 

[Arkady]

The art in this game is hand drawn, and as a very slow artist myself, it would take me about a day for each illustration?

Of course, the art is the one thing Crush isn't doing himself, so ... that should cut a month or two from the time Crush takes to do the stuff he actually does do himself, right? So a small content update every month or two would be what you would consider a reasonable expectation, then.

Which is exactly why Crush gets so much flak. He's not been close to that 1-2 month mark even once during the entire project, usually because he figures out the new update wil take another couple of weeks months the week before he kept claiming it would be done. Is he really a complete idiot utterly incapable of gauging his actual progress more than one week before missing the original deadline? (And if that's not what he is, then what the fuck is he?)

 

[rbx4]

Which is exactly why Crush gets so much flak. He's not been close to that 1-2 month mark even once during the entire project, usually because he figures out the new update wil take another couple of weeks months the week before he kept claiming it would be done. Is he really a complete idiot utterly incapable of gauging his actual progress more than one week before missing the original deadline? (And if that's not what he is, then what the fuck is he?)

I've speculated on it before (maybe the posts aren't deleted), but if one trusts what Crush tells us, I think deadlines have an effect on him. I had suggested that he should stop considering time at all, no mention of deadlines, let time go and just do things. Subs seem happy with mainly-weekly posts on the Patreon, which should continue of course. Now speculation on exactly why deadlines have an effect on Crush is probably extra-curricular since I don't know his daily routine. Maybe something fixable is wrong, maybe not. Or, maybe recent changes have led to it being the best that it's going to be. Even if Crush continues to use deadlines, I don't see the point of anyone thinking about deadlines regarding Female Agent.

If one doesn't trust Crush, then it's all off the table and I don't see a point of taking it further since Crush is just a name on a screen to me. There would be no point in even visiting the thread again except to see, for entertainment, what is the latest argument repeating what was already said in 2018.

 

[Arkady]

I don't see the point of anyone thinking about deadlines regarding Female Agent.

Neither would anyone else if he were using a per-release Patreon model. But with the monthly model, missing every one of his self-set deadlines by months will keep getting him accused of being a scamming rat.

I think he should absolutely take you up on the idea of not setting himself deadlines anymore. That's not going to cost him a lot of patrons (what kind of complete fucking idiot would still back him, despite the known unreliable release schedule, just because they love those always-false promise deadlines?), but would eliminate that bad "always-false promise" vibe.

 

[rbx4]

I’m agreeing with you on that. Several well-respected creators already don’t mention dates in their communicated progress bars. Patron engagement is there and healthy with Crush already.

Potentially an overlooked benefit: communication can shift to more positive terms: “I did this, we did that,” instead of “I wanted to do this x weeks or months ago.”

 

[jamiroq]

I think he should absolutely take you up on the idea of not setting himself deadlines anymore.

I reckon, it would rather become destructive to his current business model. Setting deadlines is quite important psychologically for consumers of entertainment. We all know what 'hype' means. Artists, brands, corporations build it all the time, knowing that the engagement with their product increases when they do it. Doesn't matter if the eventual product is shit and/or comes long after set deadline. We are susceptible to this process as humans. As the deadline comes closer, engagements rise and pressure builds. This model works, provided dev (or any producer of entertainment) can handle the pressure of annoyed consumers.

 

[rbx4]

I reckon, it would rather become destructive to his current business model. Setting deadlines is quite important psychologically for consumers of entertainment. We all know what 'hype' means. Artists, brands, corporations build it all the time, knowing that the engagement with their product increases when they do it. Doesn't matter if the eventual product is shit and/or comes long after set deadline. We are susceptible to this process as humans. As the deadline comes closer, engagements rise and pressure builds. This model works, provided dev (or any producer of entertainment) can handle the pressure of annoyed consumers.

That’s fine if so. If there’s an earnings bump clearly associated with an asserted deadline for Female Agent (and not instead with releases), I don’t see a reason in that scenario to mess with it. Also if it’s not a dispensable point of stress for Crush. Only Crush can answer that last part. If it’s all currently functioning fine as you describe, well that would be something.

 

[afc2112]

I just replayed this again and I'm not sure the placeholders are ever going to get replaced. Did these just get forgotten?

 

[CassieBare]

Yes

 

[WalkTheEdge]

I just replayed this again and I'm not sure the placeholders are ever going to get replaced. Did these just get forgotten?

They'll get replaced the next rewrite

 

[CassieBare]

There are placeholders from...five or six updates ago that haven't been replaced. So, I'm going to go with: forgotten.

 

[boobthief]

Speaking of this...I'm working on a release of a FA inspired Twine game but definitely need some coding help, most expressly on the HTML side of things so that it looks good. Anyone here amongst the dissenters/complainers that have this skillset that want to work on it with me?

Best to post in the Development section here. I'm familiar with the source of Female Agent (unofficially) and I can say it's pretty extensive / best looking / probably pushing the limits of its game engine (e.g. avatar). If it's just the appearance of your game that's not so difficult (basically just CSS) but if it's core mechanics / features those require significant dev time.