VN Ren'Py Friends in Need [S1 v0.85c] [NeonGhosts]

[Joshy92]

We all saw that date with Ashe and the role-play. Guy has some issues to work out with Cassie, that's for sure. And I think he lusts after her.

 

[Meabe37]

We all saw that date with Ashe and the role-play. Guy has some issues to work out with Cassie, that's for sure. And I think he lusts after her.

Not just that, those kind of things also tease the players themself about the sister. It would be really mean from the dev to do that then not delivering. There is no way the devs is that clueless... with incest being one of the most request kink in the avn landscape and all.

 

[ffive]

That's not the point
Here you have maybe 95% men of which 90%+ straight, so gay content will piss off most people just because they aren't interested, that's all

I was referring to people who specifically complain how it's (morally) wrong, not that they aren't personally interested. If you want to say that those who complain about "moral wrongness" are just making a false argument when in reality it stems from their personal lack of interest, then if anything it'd make the analogy closer, because it'd be basically the same as complaints about "inherent corruption" of incest from people who don't find it appealing personally.

 

[Joshy92]

Did you guys know I like the game? I don't just play it because I get wicked FOMO or because I already started it, but I enjoy reading it and look forward to what happens next.

I can't say that for many games.

 

[Ropyl]

Ooof, we really need an update if the thread is going on the "Gay Sex, Okay or Not?" route.
Don't forget that when you see people complaining about something, there is usually way more people that are okay with said thing but, because they don't have any complaints, are not vocal about it. That's why conservative views seem predominant (I'm not talking about politics which involve propaganda/communication and a whole bunch of other factors), that's why negative reviews have more power, etc. The ones that are happy about something tend to just enjoy it and not go post "empty" messages about how they like it. Criticism is always more vocal than acceptance (maybe that's not the right word but I think people will understand what I mean).
Re: acceptance of gay sex in our modern era, it would be disingenuous to say that it's not accepted. I get that "The World" is not only the Western World but on the Internet it mostly is, and gay sex (wether f/f or m/m) is waaaaaayyyy more accepted and mainstream than it was only a few years or a couple of decades ago.

Whatever. The main point of my post is : "negative people will always be more vocal than positive ones even if they're a minority".

I don't even want to start discussing incest. We just really need an update at this point because the thread is really going off rails...

 

[Joshy92]

Ooof, we really need an update if the thread is going on the "Gay Sex, Okay or Not?" route.
Don't forget that when you see people complaining about something, there is usually way more people that are okay with said thing but, because they don't have any complaints, are not vocal about it. That's why conservative views seem predominant (I'm not talking about politics which involve propaganda/communication and a whole bunch of other factors), that's why negative reviews have more power, etc. The ones that are happy about something tend to just enjoy it and not go post "empty" messages about how they like it. Criticism is always more vocal than acceptance (maybe that's not the right word but I think people will understand what I mean).
Re: acceptance of gay sex in our modern era, it would be disingenuous to say that it's not accepted. I get that "The World" is not only the Western World but on the Internet it mostly is, and gay sex (wether f/f or m/m) is waaaaaayyyy more accepted and mainstream than it was only a few years or a couple of decades ago.

Whatever. The main point of my post is : "negative people will always be more vocal than positive ones even if they're a minority".

I don't even want to start discussing incest. We just really need an update at this point because the thread is really going off rails...

Don't worry man. I post plenty of empty comments

It's just that NG has made such a great game, I want to talk about the ladies all the time.

 

[ffive]

Don't forget that when you see people complaining about something, there is usually way more people that are okay with said thing but, because they don't have any complaints, are not vocal about it.

I don't think this is really the case, not when the push comes to shove i.e. when people cast their votes on who should be in power you don't exactly see the liberals winning by a landslide. Realistically, there's just as many people who are not okay with a thing but choose to stay silent (nodding along to those publicly running their mouths) as there are those who stay silent because they are actually okay with the thing.

 

[Ropyl]

Don't worry man. I post plenty of empty comments

It's just that NG has made such a great game, I want to talk about the ladies all the time.

And I thank you for that. That's exactly why we need people like you and others that just enjoy posting and talking about why they like the game. Otherwise we would just see the criticism, justified or not, which would skew the following comments, etc etc. I had that experience on Anthem, BioWare last big project, and until I tried the game for myself I was sure it would fucking absolutely suck because all I saw online was criticism. Some of it was, in restrospect, justified, but most of it was just Internet doing its thing and just whining for the heck of it.

So yeah, people that like things may have a moral duty to talk about what they like if only to counterbalance the natural tendency to complain if you have complaints, or shut up and enjoy the thing if you do. Which is fine, don't get me wrong, but in our modern era of "Engagement being the driving force", the "enjoyers" need to counterbalance the complainers.

 

[Ropyl]

I don't think this is really the case, not when the push comes to shove i.e. when people cast their votes on who should be in power you don't exactly see the liberals winning by a landslide. Realistically, there's just as many people who are not okay with a thing but choose to stay silent (nodding along to those publicly running their mouths) as there are those who stay silent because they are actually okay with the thing.

I get what you're saying but I don't think you can compare the modern-Internet business model and engagement-driven model with politics with all the propaganda/communication, education required to follow it, media biases etc. Those are two wildly (I think) different worlds. Politics (and economics, etc) require a whole different skillset and mindset to follow than videogames, be they adult games or not. My point was about the modern Internet and game industry. If we're talking politics and why we are where we are (in the Western world, which is the only one I know some things about), that's a whole different discussion, I think.

 

[Ragnar]

That's not the point
Here you have maybe 95% men of which 90%+ straight, so gay content will piss off most people just because they aren't interested, that's all
They wanna screw women, and fantasy incest isn't the same as real incest

Fantasy gay is not the same as real gay and most heterosexual men aren't interested in gay porn vns.
Same goes for incest, some people find it disgusting.

 

[PHIL101-YYouPPHard]

Why are we discussing the rl morals and politics surrounding incest lol.. I thought we were just discussing how incest would be viewed within the world of FiN, which I think we've already gathered (and Neon's confirmed) is basically an amalgam of modern major American cities. And in that case, obviously incest is very, very frowned upon and disturbing to everyone. Also, incest fantasies are dominated by men in general, soooo... only point is that Cassie being into incest and then even acting on it would represent a rare kind of woman. Ashe already kind-of-sort-of fills that gap in the game, although.. it's pretend incest, and she doesn't have any siblings, so makes sense brother-sister wouldn't bother her.

I tried searching for Neon's post on it, but for some reason I can't find it. But, basically, I think he just said he's having trouble coming up with a satisfying romance angle, and maybe light corruption/findom angle, because what kind of sister would consent to incest for money? I'm guessing the issue is trying to square the unlikeliness, the taboo quality of it, and maybe her sexuality, and how it all fits within the game, without feeling too fantastical, ridiculous, trope-y, or groom-y creepy?

That's why I personally think it makes sense for it to come with some kind of baggage, which people might really not like. For example, drug addiction (means she's really desperate for money and isn't quite herself, but Risa's already got this angle, and people would absolutely hate it, so probably not this); mental illness/personality disorder/escalating nymphomania (she's not quite normal in the head and has some serious issues, though maybe seems normal on the surface); history of abuse (well, Guy would be an obvious source of that, but that wouldn't be right to the players who want a nice, normal Guy... so, maybe the father... but, I feel like that might piss people off too ); and so on.

I mean, he could obviously just make her a rare, endangered butterfly of a woman, where she's just mostly normal and happens to have an unusual and inappropriate thing for her brother... I think a lot of people would prefer that, but, like I said, I think that might feel too convenient or odd, and I'm guessing that's how Neon feels about it since he's struggling with it. It mayyyybe could make more sense if they didn't grow up together (we've evolved a counter to incest that develops for any siblings or other children we spend a lot of time growing up around, but it never gets triggered if that doesn't happen). But, that's not really the case here I think.

 

[ffive]

But, basically, I think he just said he's having trouble coming up with a satisfying romance angle, and maybe light corruption/findom angle, because what kind of sister would consent to incest for money?

Considering Gabby has an explicit sugar baby path, and Guy's relationship with other girls also involve on some level him providing them with good or favors, i'm not sure why this would suddenly become a concern. In Cassie's case it is, if anything, already established to some extent, with Guy having acted quite like her "parent" taking care of her for a number of years. It'd be hardly surprising if they fell back in similar pattern and expanded from there.

 

[PHIL101-YYouPPHard]

Considering Gabby has an explicit sugar baby path, and Guy's relationship with other girls also involve on some level him providing them with good or favors, i'm not sure why this would suddenly become a concern. In Cassie's case it is, if anything, already established to some extent, with Guy having acted quite like her "parent" taking care of her for a number of years. It'd be hardly surprising if they fell back in similar pattern and expanded from there.

ffive, my guy, sometimes I wonder about you. It's different because it's incest, lol.. if you can't see the difference between a struggling young woman that's fine with trading sex for money with a pretty cute gent who seems mostly competent and well-adjusted... and you know, trading sex for money with YOUR BROTHER... I don't know what more I can say

 

[MagicMan753]

Don't worry guys, Cassie will have a romance route, I believe. It just wouldn't make sense to dangle her in front of us for half the game, build her up, introduce incest play, and us masturbating to her pic and everything to lock her behind being a piece of shit only. Every girl has had a romance route thus far, so why would she be different. That would piss off so many people.

Also, just cause a game leans a little more realistic, doesn't mean everything has to be perfect realism. Every story in media has a piece and bit of unrealistic things that happen, so a beautiful incest love between MC and Cassie is not out of the realm of possibility, just cause it leans slightly more one way.

 

[ChubbyFatBoy]

Speaking of Gabby, my friends! Been a time since I've given this game a whirl. I'm curious, did the opportunity to make up with her ever come up? Remember that being such a sad and unfortunate situation.

 

[ffive]

ffive, my guy, sometimes I wonder about you. It's different because it's incest, lol..

Ehh, but this is only actually different if you have incest built up in your head as some sort of "inherently corrupt" boogeyman. We're sort of circling back to the point that this is meaningless objection for people who don't share this view. And there are evidently people who don't share this view. Even in the game, where Ashe gets off on this idea rather then go all "eeeewww how inherently corrupt and perverted, what sort of a person would even consider this".

What kind of a sister would consent to incest? One who doesn't think it is such a big deal. For all we know Cassie might be such a person. Or she might not, but it's not exactly established nor excluded.

 

[Lightaces]

"Most people would consider it fine"? In what world, exactly? Even around here on this forums you will find quite a few people who make it their life mission to complain about gay and/or lesbian sex at every opportunity, and in the real world you have vast groups of conservatives whose attitude towards it ranges from "never talk about it, it's disgusting abomination of natural order" to "all those perverts should just get killed". That includes countries which pride themselves for being "open-minded and liberal".

According to Gallup, about 70% of Americans support legal gay marriage, and according to Pew's review of 32 nations, 19 of the 32 have majority support for gay marriage (15 of those with over 70% supporting, and of the 13 not supporting 5 were within a few points of swapping sides). Yes, people are OK, by and large, with gay people existing have having sex with each other, even if they don't want to see it or do it themselves. And on this forum, you may see a lot of people complaining about gay MEN having sex, or anything which could possibly be interpreted that way; but I would bet 90+ percent are very, VERY much in favor of watching lesbians have sex, which is, yes, gay sex.

You quite simply will not find those kinds of numbers for incest. It is not only a false equivalency, it is one steeped in bigotry. A type of bigotry which, according to the research, most people are slowly dragging themselves out of. There are sound biological reasons family members shouldn't be risking getting pregnant together. Homophobia has no such merit. So yes, it was absolutely a false equivalency, and frankly a pretty offensive one.

So maybe stop deflecting from the fact you can't do I asked - come up with a viable story pitch for a way to have Guy fuck his sister which,

1. ISN'T a corruption route.
2. Makes sense in the world this game inhabits.
3. Does so without feeling jarring or out of place.

Because if he can't do that, Neon shouldn't include it. And yes, Neon is clearly a better writer than you, but it's a hard task, and one which doesn't need to be accomplished. There are plenty of corrupt routes for Guy to fuck his sister and make y'all happy (well, maybe not Joshy, but I'm sure they can just hold hands as Guy triumphs over the Rhodenbar family), so why try to do something which will feel so wrong in context?

 

[Lightaces]

Speaking of Gabby, my friends! Been a time since I've given this game a whirl. I'm curious, did the opportunity to make up with her ever come up? Remember that being such a sad and unfortunate situation.

Not out for public consumption yet, but should be coming in the next couple months.

 

[Lightaces]

We all saw that date with Ashe and the role-play. Guy has some issues to work out with Cassie, that's for sure. And I think he lusts after her.

We saw a bit of role play. I have a lot of CNC fantasies, and have actually acted out CNC role play with enthusiastically consenting partners. I would never ACTUALLY rape someone. Role playing with your hot kinky girlfriend about incest is not the same thing as actually fucking your sister, even in game.

Did you guys know I like the game? I don't just play it because I get wicked FOMO or because I already started it, but I enjoy reading it and look forward to what happens next.

I can't say that for many games.

Me too, Joshy, me too. And given the vast difference in our fantasies, it's pretty impressive Neon wrote a game which appeals to us both.

 

[PHIL101-YYouPPHard]

Ehh, but this is only actually different if you have incest built up in your head as some sort of "inherently corrupt" boogeyman. We're sort of circling back to the point that this is meaningless objection for people who don't share this view. And there are evidently people who don't share this view. Even in the game, where Ashe gets off on this idea rather then go all "eeeewww how inherently corrupt and perverted, what sort of a person would even consider this".

What kind of a sister would consent to incest? One who doesn't think it is such a big deal. For all we know Cassie might be such a person. Or she might not, but it's not exactly established nor excluded.

None of the characters are f95 users whose brains have been fried by porn, though. So, maybe you think it's totally normal if only people would just get over it (it's not, and they will never get over it lol). But like, everyone else and the characters don't share that view, is my only point.

And as for Ashe, it's not really the same. For her, it's purely fantasy, for one; and secondly, she also doesn't have a sibling, and isn't lusting after anyone in her family. Whereas Cassie wouldn't just be an only child having an incest fantasy about some guy she likes being her brother; she wouldn't just be having that fantasy about another guy, while also actually having a real brother - weird and would make you wonder, but still not incest; but she'd have that fantasy about her own brother, and then on top of that, she'd actually act on it. Very different tiers of "holy shit, what is wrong with you", you know?

But, you're right, maybe the sister is that rare person who has no qualms about it at all. I also entertained that. I guess it ultimately amounts to the dev's standards for his story and characters, and to the standards of the paying fanbase. I'm not a writer, but personally I can easily see how it would be challenging to write a consensual incest romance that doesn't feel jarring or out of place, or purely in service to a kink.

Don't worry guys, Cassie will have a romance route, I believe. It just wouldn't make sense to dangle her in front of us for half the game, build her up, introduce incest play, and us masturbating to her pic and everything to lock her behind being a piece of shit only. Every girl has had a romance route thus far, so why would she be different. That would piss off so many people.

Also, just cause a game leans a little more realistic, doesn't mean everything has to be perfect realism. Every story in media has a piece and bit of unrealistic things that happen, so a beautiful incest love between MC and Cassie is not out of the realm of possibility, just cause it leans slightly more one way.

Yeah, true. I think it comes more down to feeling 'right', or being believable, as opposed to being exactly realistic. Given this game has tried to set up a believable setting overall, within reason for a porn VN, some executions of an incest romance would just feel really odd and ridiculous I think.