VN Ren'Py Completed Gargoyles, The beast and the Bitch [Alx & Khronos]

[nissan]

I want to point out first my post was not intended as a fuel to ignite a feud but as an analysis of what's going on.

They have hundreds of employees working on their game ( I know, I use to work with these studios), we are 2.

Sorry, but who's to blame over here that the team didn't scale when needed? I believe you could get help you need from the community or pay per contract pros.

I compared BvB2 with AAA games in terms of the final price of the product. We're not talking any skills or headcount over here.
Let's say i'd throw a buck at you each months since BvB2 was announced. That would be around 25-30$, right?
Throwing 5 bucks each month over a year is 60$, now BvB2 is in development is more that 12 months. It's more like 25-28 months already.
Please correct me if i'm wrong, since i can't really recall when BvB was announced: 2016 or 2017.
That's what was meant comparing to AAA studios. And the fact they have deadlines.

Listen, we aren’t professional.

Your Patreon header states you've been doing this for 20 years professionally and so on. Never met a professional that claims he is professional somewhere on the internet and denies that in a public conversation.

But most of us barely make a living

I am sorry, sir, are you speaking for yourself now? My rant is targeted towards BvB2 dev and delivery since in the last 10 months i saw how transparency of the project hit the zero mark when the topic was just cut off weekly updates.

Also, you mentioned this

And 1 of us still have a day job in a really high-tech sector

Makes me assume: he is not 100% commited to this project as he had his issues and so. So suspending him from his duties would not leave him hungry on the street begging for a dime.
So, you could scale as you saw you're team member is having personal issues. Proving you owe him BvB2 on a basis of his contribution to the first part has emotional and personal touch, but not the commitment to the project or patrons or just fans that would like to support your work.

As of today Laticia is making 1038$ a month… Who here could live out of 12k a year???

Russian.
With the average wage around 500$ a months according to various sources. And they don't deliver, they milk. Please never ever put russians and youself on same scales.

I won’t push him.

See, that's the problem. You're not committed to your fans or the project. You don't want to scale, don't want to burst.
But the worst thing is: you don't want to adapt.

The silent anticipators would never say a word, but the best feedback is the one that is detailed and explicit. It aims to help.
Funny how you read all this and basically turn your eyes off the direct issue you're having with the delivery.

I called you out and saw it doesn't make sense since all my assumptions of tardiness and lack of managerial approach to owning your product and loving it like your baby have fallen to a void of incomprehension.
The mess with the QA you had is one more egg to the basket of incompetency of dealing with people and delegating.
You have a lousy coder, you pick lousy QA and you preach you can't deal with the human nature of those.

Therefore, you're just mistreating the people who pay and really care for what you do.

Alx, dude, grow a pair or by the time you release HP game to the public, Canada will be speaking russian.

TLDR
In this post im annoyed how a simple game takes two years to produce and prove it costs as an AAA game. The creator unconvincingly appeals his staff/partners have other things to do other than making the game happen.

 

[Fuckit]

I understand the criticism about the tardiness of delivery... but you are misinterpreting my situation. We are NOT a business. I take donations, not payments. This is Patreon, not kickstarter. This is a tip jar, not an investment. And i'm not asking for anything for you to play the game. I don't even know if you where ever a supporter, and yet, I'll be happy to post a copy here, for you to play with, when it is ready.

So stop complaining already! This is free stuff Khronoss and I make. All you need to do is wait a while to enjoy it. There is thousand of other games on this forum for you to enjoy in the meantime. Still. I appreciate your eagerness. I take it as a compliment for my work.

Your Patreon header states you've been doing this for 20 years professionally and so on. Never met a professional that claims he is professional somewhere on the internet and denies that in a public conversation.

I'm a professional ARTIST, NOT a game developer. Yes I have experience with game studios but always as an artist and art director. My patreon is not exclusively about games: It never was and never will be. I draw. I never hidden the fact that I had a few games projects from the start, that I tough that Patreon would be the way to to it, and I was lucky enough to found a partner to make them happen. But the first year of my patreon was only about pinups. it's not my fault you decided to center on only one aspect of my work.

i saw how transparency of the project hit the zero mark when the topic was just cut off weekly updates.

then you haven't payed attention. I try to have updates about BVB2 as much as possible... but what do you expect me to say : "sorry, still no progress", week after weeks? I post about it when there is something to say. it's not a lack of transparency, it's the lack of progress. The only thing I decided to remain hush hushed about is the nature of Khronoss's situation: it's his private life and not mine to share!

See, that's the problem. You're not committed to your fans or the project. You don't want to scale, don't want to burst.
But the worst thing is: you don't want to adapt.

Dude. I worked my ass of a year and a half on this project. Commitment is NOT my problem. But I started it with Khronoss and I think he earned the right to see it finished if he so chose. I survived 2 depressions and I was lucky to have people to support me in these time. that is all I'm trying to do with him. You might believe in tough love, I don't. In my experience it's mostly armful.

The mess with the QA you had is one more egg to the basket of incompetency of dealing with people and delegating.

The QA, the first guy didn't deliver, this is true, but he was the one who had done the QA for the first game and seemed pretty eager to take on the job again, so I was pretty sure he would deliver. Only life got in the way. Shit happen dude!. So a week later, I hired 3 testers to take his place and they ALL delivered in a few days. So I really don't see this as a debacle at all. The ONLY reason you know about it is because I am 100% transparent about the development process. But yeah, I never said I was competent as a director of personnel. I'm not... I actually HATE it, even as a art director, this is part of the reason I left the mainstream. Lucky for me, my games are a passion project, NOT a business.

See, you think I didn't understood you point about delivery... it's not that I didn't understood... it's that I don't think like you. This isn't about getting a product out. This is about making something I love with a partner I respect and to whom I an eternally grateful for having embarked on this project with me. so If I have to wait or him to get better, I will.. end of story. If you are unhappy with this situation, just don't support my patreon. No arm done. you'll get the game anyway!

As for my commitment to my supporters and fans, I adapted... just NOT the way you'd like. And yes, I lost a few who wanted me to ONLY work on games since I started the comics, but I gained twice as much.

All that being said, I appreciate the heads up. And will continue to monitor Khronoss's situation...

As for the HP game. it's you guys, on this very page, that convinced me to stop working on it until BVB2 is out. Only then will I see if I keep working with Khronoss, or find a new partner.

But let me be 100% honest here.... and please don't take this the wrong way. I know you see your post as a constructive criticism... and part of it was. but your overall tone is entitlement. And I get contact like these on a regular basis. for each post you might have written, I probably received 4. I use to be harassed by eta's request or call out for tardiness all the time, even tough I post stuff about BvB2 almost every weeks. I made a post about it on my patreon and thing calmed down. Because, my supporters understood my point: In the end, this is not helping: At best it's annoying, and worst it makes me want to quit working on the game.

I'm not asking for a safe space, I wouldn't be here if I wanted one. But if you actually want to be constructive, this is the way to go. All that being said, you did made me reconsider a few points. we'll see where this goes.

But trust me, I put enough pressure on myself as it is; I don't need more.

 

[nissan]

I use to be harassed by eta's request or call out for tardiness all the time, even tough I post stuff about BvB2 almost every weeks.

Sure, because you're the only focal point in what's happening with the game. People see you as an artist and the boss.
No one says, it's easy to combine two roles.

It's great to have feedback from you, seriously. But it's like... the game is 95% done as you mentioned sometime before.

How hairy are those 5% for a person that has proven experience in the hi-tech industry, it's just ridiculous.
He sets you up, and he does not deal with all the rage you get...

At best it's annoying, and worst it makes me want to quit working on the game.

Again, it has nothing to do with you as an artist, but the team has it's flaws. That seems to be certain, at least for most of us i believe. The negative experience you had should only make you consider broadening the possible team of enthusiasts in the future.

But trust me, I put enough pressure on myself as it is;

In a nutshell my point was a bit different: make those responsible for their part of the deal sweat. That's it.

It's going to be a shame if your artisan work won't get enough recognition just because of other people issues.

Good luck.

 

[Fuckit]

My only point about you reply would be that I don't think Khronoss set me up. He had what he though was a great opportunity: it backfired in a big way and he's struggling with the aftermath on as lots of aspects. I know part of it and i'd be in the same emotional state if it was me. This is why I am so patient with him. I can't help but empathize.

still. Of course I did question the fact that It might be better for everyone to get it of his hand. i'm not blind or stupid. But for the moment, I decided against it... but i'm constantly struggling to find the balance between his wellness and mine: Because of course it is quite a burden for me to see where we are and not seeing the end of it.

All I can tell you is: For the moment I am still willing to give him time. but I don't think I'll be able to wait an other year.

 

[StingerStung]

@nissan
What experience do you have in the game development world at all? This is a general question not meaning to pick a fight with you. Just trying to see where you sit in this argument.

 

[zazzaro]

@Fuckit It's cool that you feel for the guy really, just remember that you have people on patreon too.

 

[Fuckit]

@nissan
What experience do you have in the game development world at all? This is a general question not meaning to pick a fight with you. Just trying to see where you sit in this argument.

yeah don't worry about it... we had a discussion... not a fight ^^

to answer you question, is a bit complicated. I worked as a professional artist for a lot of small games. mostly promotional, mostly around TV show. I later became the art directer of a small web company that also made some promotional games. I was most of the time part of the core group that would create the concept, but I never had to lead a project or conceptualized the whole thing. And even as a art director, I was pretty bad at directing people. if their product wasn't up to par, I would more often than not the the correction my self simply because the back and forth was killing me. I'm use to do things my way, alone and not asking for help.

Khronoss is the rare exception to the rule since I had to admit to myself I was simply incapable of coding

EDIT: Oups, that wasn't addressed to me... my bad

It's cool that you feel for the guy really, just remember that you have people on patreon too.

don't worry, I am. The whole reason I stopped working on the HP game and start comics is exactly because of that. I knew the game centric folks wouldn't be to please by this change. but I also knew that the great majority of them understood that my game was only of my projects

great conversation, but I have to go
see you guys soon

 

[Fuzzy_zen]

@Fuckit Now I understand everything.

 

[nissan]

@nissan
What experience do you have in the game development world at all? This is a general question not meaning to pick a fight with you. Just trying to see where you sit in this argument.

I don’t feel like I need to reply to it: neither to prove I have, nor I don’t.

I’d you have some input prepared already - go for it.

 

[StingerStung]

I don’t feel like I need to reply to it: neither to prove I have, nor I don’t.

I’d you have some input prepared already - go for it.

No actually, was generally curious was all. No fights, no 'slagging' as it were. Honest word.

 

[johndoe191713]

cool game with nice art. im patient as saint when it comes to lewd games, my dick is not falling off anytime soon, take your time and polish that bitch like u mean it

 

[casino69]

What other games do these people have?

Yes... I used google traslator. Im from Spain

 

[Morkar]

any news of the 2 testers of the game ?

 

[nissan]

any news of the 2 testers of the game ?

Oct 16 at 1:30am
BvB2

No news… and to be honest, with all the craziness, I didn’t ask.


Just forget about the title, dude. Alx won't push the depressed guy so it's basically depressed guy's sense of responsibility...which is well... you know.
It will go out one day or it won't. I recall a great RS song with the chorus "You can't always get what you want". Seems to be the case. Ha.

 

[casino69]

Do you know more games of this type?

 

[Fuckit]

any news of the 2 testers of the game ?

the testers did do their jobs... it's in Khronoss hands

as for his sense of responsibility : @nissan Dude, this is a porn game he does in his free time. His responsibility is about paying his rent, his food and getting better. Mine are to keep my patrons happy, and they are. The game will come out when it's ready, they understand that.

If I have to change partner, I will... but for the moment, I'm sticking with my boy. He did an awesome job, ad he will again, once he's better

 

[Fuckit]

Do you know more games of this type?

Sadly, none that I know of.

I was inspired by an AIF called "A Dog's Life" by Garry Plume, that was a short game in a package from a 2012 competition... and except for a small ( rather bad ) Japanese game, I never saw anything else along those lines ( which always surprised me to be honest )

 

[casino69]

Sadly, none that I know of.

I was inspired by an AIF called "A Dog's Life" by Garry Plume, that was a short game in a package from a 2012 competition... and except for a small ( rather bad ) Japanese game, I never saw anything else along those lines ( which always surprised me to be honest )

Well, it's a shame.

We will have patience and we will wait. You do a great job, both of you.

Thanks for everything!

 

[nissan]

the testers did do their jobs... it's in Khronoss hands

as for his sense of responsibility : @nissan Dude, this is a porn game he does in his free time. His responsibility is about paying his rent, his food and getting better. Mine are to keep my patrons happy, and they are. The game will come out when it's ready, they understand that.

If I have to change partner, I will... but for the moment, I'm sticking with my boy. He did an awesome job, ad he will again, once he's better

Amen.

I just copy/pasted your statement for the inquiry.

And made some conclusions and you just proved my point he is minding the set of the responsibilities and the BvB2 is just not on that list. That is fine, since no one owes nothing to anyone. And everyone should be happy and be patience or stop irritating the fans.

 

[dalzomo]

the testers did do their jobs... it's in Khronoss hands

as for his sense of responsibility : @nissan Dude, this is a porn game he does in his free time. His responsibility is about paying his rent, his food and getting better. Mine are to keep my patrons happy, and they are. The game will come out when it's ready, they understand that.

If I have to change partner, I will... but for the moment, I'm sticking with my boy. He did an awesome job, ad he will again, once he's better

I'd like to address this "they are."

I was a patron. When it became clear you had no intention of providing the game I'd been sponsoring you for since its inception, I stopped.