VN Ren'Py Completed Haley's Story [v1.1 Pre-Patched] [Viitgames]

[Segnbora]

She then seemingly tells him they'll talk later and he can ask anything he wants, almost in a response to his anger that might be shown on his face or to cover her own ass. It's clear that she opens the door though for more talk.

I'm not entirely sure what we're arguing about. Haley doesn't want to talk about it. That's obvious despite her two offers to do so. If this is based on an experience with her mother back when it happened, I'd certainly understand why she doesn't.

I'm sure a whole world of possibilities can explain the difference, but the real question should be why does it need to be explained? Why are we seeing what seems to be such a disjointed story?

So let me try an example.

You have, one presumes, seen the original Star Wars trilogy. If you haven't, at least you've gathered enough from the cultural narrative to know the story. You would also, I think, agree that it's a reasonably* popular and successful story, no matter how you feel about the murderous Teddy Bears. I'm not going to spoiler-protect it for anyone, because c'mon.

* I can hardly be more sarcastic, though I'd welcome the opportunity.

From the opening scene of A New Hope to the moment when Darth Vader slices off Luke's hand, what is the trilogy about? (Yes, I know that's only 1 7/8th movies, but that's the point.) It's about the Rebels defeating the Empire. How's that going to be achieved? In terms of the trilogy, it's clearly going to be achieved by still-untutored Luke learning about the Force so he can kill the thoroughly evil master of said Force, Darth Vader, in a super-awesome lightsaber battle. It couldn't possibly assure you more often that this is exactly how the story's going to conclude. The second film helpfully demonstrates this by giving you the classic "unready hero" scene in which they have a lightsaber battle and Luke is soundly defeated by the dude in the noisy mask.

And then: dramatic plot twist. Since the plot twist immediately reveals that our hero has romantically pursued and kissed his own sister, that his trustworthy mentors straight-up lied to him (*cough* from a certain point of view *cough*), and that his dad tortured his own daughter, I'd call that even more disruptive to the existing narrative than Haley having been a victim of statutory rape.

What's the trilogy about after that? The A plot's still about defeating the Empire. But the story is now about something theretofore incomprehensible: redeeming the evil torturer/murderer/let's not forget he cut off Luke's hand just to punctuate a sentence/dude with the breathing problem.

Go back to someone who just watched Luke (among very few others) barely escape Vader in Death Star Mark 1's trench (don't @ me, extended universe fans) and ask them, "oh, by the way, Luke's going to defy all his friends to save this jackass. How do you feel about that?"

We can handle dramatic tonal shifts in fiction. We handle them less well when we can't see the bigger picture. Praise be that there wasn't much of an internet back when Absentee Daddy told Luke the truth, because I think you know what that reaction would've been. And yet nearly everyone thinks it's the best film of the trilogy, and usually the whole series.

it's entirely possible that Viit's trying to show Haley as some kind of psychopath

This is more or less the heart of my objection to what you're writing (and if I didn't think it was worth responding to I wouldn't). Haley isn't a psychopath by her own malevolent design, she's damaged. Whether she initiated it or Klaus did, she's got a whole constellation of issues built up around the incident(s). They're not her fault. She can't help but respond to the MC this way. Is her entire history with the MC bound up with this damage? That's an exceedingly crucial question and we need to find out. Did she have opportunities for remedy? Certainly, but we can't and shouldn't blame the victim.

I repeat what I wrote a few posts up: this game may not be about fucking Haley. This game may be about fixing Haley.

Even WAY back, Diane meets Sandra and then completely forgets about her to meet her again.

It may well have been a mistake and it probably was. Still, does it seem out of character for Diane? Does she seem like a character who builds strong and memorable personal relationships?

and not just some issue that the twins now have to face because they're now fucking. I fully expected some kind of drama because that's usually what happens to provide a continuing story once the main characters have fucked.

So this is, for me, sort of the core question from here on. What's the story actually about? If it's not about getting the twins together, but instead about something much more complex and entirely Haley-focused (no matter how much of the resolution requires the MC), then where the story went wrong wasn't two updates ago, it was all the earlier releases. But even if that's true, if enough comes after this to justify the shift as a complete story, then I'll be okay with it. Affection or lack thereof will be a different judgement.

 

[preglovr12]

I'm not entirely sure what we're arguing about. Haley doesn't want to talk about it. That's obvious despite her two offers to do so. If this is based on an experience with her mother back when it happened, I'd certainly understand why she doesn't.

I'm not sure I'd say it's obvious when she offers to talk at home. She seems to be grinning, which might be because she just fucked her brother and whatnot (those timing issues have been discussed to death.) I think the least she could do* is answer the first question MC asks about why he'd be mad, not doing so seems like a massive shift in her stance for no reason (that's been explained.) Unless she told the same thing to the mom when she told her, but Haley seems smart enough to not want to repeat the same mistake twice (unless that's the whole point). It's a strange thing to offer to talk if she's not willing to do so. It's not like MC is demanding answers right then and she's just trying to throw him a halfhearted bone in the spur of the moment.

*No, anyone else that's reading this, I'm not demanding the game do something I want. I just would like the game to do something it set up all by itself with absolutely no help from me.

We can handle dramatic tonal shifts in fiction. We handle them less well when we can't see the bigger picture. Praise be that there wasn't much of an internet back when Absentee Daddy told Luke the truth, because I think you know what that reaction would've been like. And yet nearly everyone thinks it's the best film of the trilogy, and usually the whole series.

No disagreements but every update that comes out I'm questioning whether or not there's a bigger plan for this game more and more. I know a lot of my "problems" could easily be dismissed as nitpicks but they also might be clear evidence of much bigger issues. I also know we won't know until later.

This is more or less the heart of my objection to what you're writing (and if I didn't think it was worth responding to I wouldn't). Haley isn't a psychopath by her own malevolent design, she's damaged. Whether she initiated it or Klaus did, she's got a whole constellation of issues built up around the incident(s). They're not her fault. She can't help but respond to the MC this way. Is her entire history with the MC bound up with this damage? That's an exceedingly crucial question and we need to find out. Did she have opportunities for remedy? Certainly, but we can't and shouldn't blame the victim.

I repeat what I wrote a few posts up: this game may not be about fucking Haley. This game may be about fixing Haley.

For sure. I wasn't trying to dismiss her reasoning, just question her portrayal as someone that's okay and offering to talk and no later than a few hours later completely dismissive of any conversation and not wanting to talk no matter the circumstances (taking into account the time lapse). Her actions make sense, but it could have been handled a lot better if we're supposed to feel sorry for her.



At the end of the day we don't know who to blame the faults on. Be it Viit, Ptolemy, or Haley (and thus ultimately Klaus, obviously.) It could be all of them as well. I just wish the audience was more in on what's happening. It certainly could be a very well thought out ploy for the audience to be driven to despair right alongside MC but then again I'm not sure that's a ride I'm willing to take. MC also seems to be too much of his own character for that to work very well.

 

[ptahn]

Agree on first part.
Strongly disagree on second one.

Dev Already have presented Haleys rape case in the most misogynistic way. Presenting a rape case smoothened or debatable (or even pleasurable) mainly through Haleys reactions and understanding of the case.

If you go back to the posts after 0.55 released, you can see all the debate and arguements about the nature of the case or the legal/ethic status of it.
You can also see comments like "people are buthurt cause she wasnt a virgin", or "people are buthurt cause she had a sex life in the past" or "i can say from my personal experience that 15 old Kids can seduce an old fart cause my cousin... bs... bs... bs...". Most of them dissapeared from disqussion or inlined their opinions after "getting the memo" that Dev are going to deal with this case As a statutory rape one.

And Yet we who didnt like the content or treated the case As a rape one from Start are the ones being lectured for our sensitivity towards rape victims while the former "my 15years old cousin tried to seduce me... bs.. bs... bs..." posters upvote the sensitivity lecturing posts!!!
Pure comedy gold.

So because Everyone Is lecturing about sensitivity or proposing a reasonable manner to treat the case, I will give you my thoughts.

1. Reporting the case to the authorities Is the only reasonable way to go in such cases

Rape victims are often not willing to go that way, fearing of being retraumatized or social exposure. Yet its the only way to go in order to apply justice or to protect future potential victims. And in long term Is the only way that gives a satisfactory resolution to the problem in both terms of justice or victims treatment. A 3rd person should always report this to the authorities regardless of the victims perspective.
(Dev in our case have Already shown MC exposing his Sisters rape case to their common everyday closed social circle regardless her persective)

2. Victims should seek or persuaded to seek experts treatment.

Again authorities have all the means and experience to support victims. Either victims are persuaded to testify and pursue the case legally or not its the only way to go.
Its a standard that victims are forced to relive the incident and are retraumatized. But its the way modern psycologys rules are applied in such cases.
(Devs have Already shown MC applying selfmade out of his buthole psycology with the "you are seeing it wrong" treatment, when not staying silent either on troubled or angry Mode. Or the being autistic during disqussions treatment, where disqussions always lead to nowhere)

3. Talking the law in your hands Is not a reasonable action in civilized societies.

Its the way modern civilized societies work. Doing otherwise leaves emotional marks. The eye for an eye rule isnt applied. You dont rape back rapist or kill murderers equalling yourself to them. And making your life and the ones around you more miserable. (devs have Already set the frame story, with the revelation of Mr Klaus being remarried and having a stepdaughter, that MC Is going to keep on investagating the case or dealing with it on his own)

4. There are far more important things in life than your bonner.

A rape case of a loved one Is more important than the short term or even the longterm consequnses it can have on yours relationship. If in order to deal in a satisfactory way with it, you have to directy adress the issue risking a direct confrontation, a fight, or even a brake up you do so. Even more if it Already affects your relationship in a level that its making it disfunctional, and there Is a constant presence of the elephant in the room.
(Dev atm apply the keep fucking her resolution. In order to keep fappers happy and dont Deny fanbase its bonners after all the build up in siblings relationship from Start through 0.55. So we have the Dick treatment applied to haley while haley keeps adressing MC the way he thinks was adressing her rapist. Far more twisted than pure ntr content.
Ntr or cheating Is a common thing in rl, but not one of the best attributes of human nature. Fucking a rape victim while she adresses you the way she adressed her rapist its reaching levels of disturbing or uncommon behavior such As vore or necrophilia)

That my opinion of how a rape case must be dealt. Thats the way to go if dev decides to treat a rape case with the sensitivity Is requires. In a story that makes sense. Or even leaves Some rl Lessons of how to deal with such cases.

Dont see it coming. Game has Already taken the opposite direction from sensitivity or common sense.

My desire is to have the story return to its roots as soon as possible. I would like to avoid update after update trying to put Klaus in jail. I want Haley's rape to be a one time event and not long term abuse. For me, it would be worse if Klaus manipulated her for a long period of time in order to have sex with her. It would be worse if later he did the same thing with other girls. How would Haley feel if because she did not stop Klaus when it happened to her, Klaus was allowed to hurt other girls? But you're right, there will be those that will never be satisfied if Klaus is not punished in some dramatic way. A life time of self loathing will not be enough. How about MC discovers Klaus has testicular cancer and the cancer has spread throughout his body? Klaus will be dead in a matter of months, suffering every day of the time he has left. Divine justice for those who believe in such a thing. I really don't want update after update of Haley dealing with the trauma of what happened to her. What I am trying to suggest is a path that minimizes her emotional scars. I want her to heal as fast as possible. I want my romantic comedy back. The worse the details of the Klaus incident and the longer the resolution drags out, the less likely it will ever come back. As for my "boner," I have said repeatedly that I don't care if every sex scene in the story is removed; it has never been about that for me.

 

[ptahn]

Am I responsible for all the Star War/Star Trek references? You all know I was joking about the nerd trifecta. I had not intended to open that door.

 

[preglovr12]

Am I responsible for all the Star War/Star Trek references? You all know I was joking about the nerd trifecta. I had not intended to open that door.

No, I am I think by referencing TLJ a few pages back, then Discovery was of my own accord as well. I don't actually remember reading your post.

 

[Segnbora]

I'd like to thank you for a productive discussion, which is increasingly rare in this thread.

I'm not sure I'd say it's obvious when she offers to talk at home. She seems to be grinning, which might be because she just fucked her brother and whatnot

By "home" do you mean the family home? Then I agree that she's not thinking about it at all while there. She's still having/in the aftermath of sex with DreamBrother. This is the realization of her dream. She'll say anything at this point as long as it doesn't break her fantasy. Nothing she says — even initiating a conversation about her past sexual partners — can break the power of that dream. That, at least, is 100% clear and obvious during that particular scene.

I think the least she could do* is answer the first question MC asks about why he'd be mad

I'm sure you would. But consider why she wouldn't. "I had sex at 15." Would he be mad about that? Probably, especially if he hadn't and because she's his sister. "I had sex with a middle-aged teacher at 15." Would he be mad about that? Almost certainly. She's not so blind as to fail to consider that he might do something about it, which she'd be against since she considers herself the instigator. "I had sex with a middle-aged teacher at 15 and it destroyed my relationship with my mother, except I'm not going to tell you about that because you'll be even angrier." If that's her thought process, then the very last thing she'd want to do would be to let him into her head.

"I'll tell you anything you want to know" might be a convenient dodge. "No, it's all fine, I'm an open book, there's nothing more to tell." Since she then goes on to dodge, and weave, and dodge again, I think this is a reasonable interpretation. Is it correct? We'll see.

Unless she told the same thing to the mom when she told her, but Haley seems smart enough to not want to repeat the same mistake twice (unless that's the whole point).

I continue to suspect that her Mom doesn't know the full truth. I mean, if I had to commit to this particular storyline it's how I'd write it, so maybe it's just projection on my part. Mom knows that something happened but Haley has stonewalled her for years. Mom no longer trusts Haley and no longer trusts Haley's judgement. Mom thinks Haley needs protection. Mom sees a very clear and impenetrable wall that Haley has erected between them. Dad might not know because of Mom's choice; fathers often have a very different relationship to their daughters' sex lives than mothers do, as I've just experienced with my nieces. Mom may, in fact, resent the comfort of Haley's relationship with her father because he's not bearing the burden of her never-unearthed secret.

If — and it's pure speculation — this is the backstory, then Haley will never voluntarily give her brother the same opportunity to criticize her. She gave him the name, but after that it's still settled history in her head and he's just being annoying and invasive the same way Mom was. Haley knows that no one she's told agrees with her, but she doesn't care. What matters is that she's finally got her brother.

Again, that's an incredibly interesting conflict. At worst, he might need to choose between their relationship — and I don't just mean the romantic/sexual version — and her emotional health. So will she. Is that a lighthearted sex romp with clever dialogue? No, but that doesn't mean it can't be at least the latter of those things.

It's a strange thing to offer to talk if she's not willing to do so. It's not like MC is demanding answers right then and she's just trying to throw him a halfhearted bone in the spur of the moment.

But it's two completely different narratives. He has one — the one most players share — that she's been a victim and that she's in denial. She has another. They agree on two facts: she had sex with Klaus and the MC's going to be mad about it. Every other fact and emotion related to the event is something about which they disagree. Why would she open that door if she can avoid it? They're still having adorable sex and crosswords and such.

One can't just look at this story through the player's eyes or the MC's eyes. Haley's eyes, especially as the titular character, also matter. And they do not see the same things the same way.

At the end of the day we don't know who to blame the faults on.

I honestly don't think it matters; either you like the story or you don't. I think the endless attempt to assign blame is disingenuous (again, not your angle) and mostly irrelevant. But I'd push back on this.

I just wish the audience was more in on what's happening.

Do you always consume spoilers the moment they become available? If so, then fine. If you don't, then I'd say that there are many people who would really like to experience fiction as it comes, not as they expect it to come.

 

[ptahn]

No, I am I think by referencing TLJ a few pages back, then Discovery was of my own accord as well. I don't actually remember reading your post.

Now my feelings are hurt.

 

[ptahn]

But it's two completely different narratives. He has one — the one most players share — that she's been a victim and that she's in denial. She has another. They agree on two facts: she had sex with Klaus and he's probably going to be mad about it. Every other fact and emotion related to the event is something about which they disagree. Why would she open that door if she can avoid it? They're still having adorable sex and crosswords and such.

One can't just look at this story through the player's eyes or the MC's eyes. Haley's eyes, especially as the titular character, also matter. And they do not see the same things the same way.

If it goes as planned, they will come to see the Klaus incident the same way. I came beck to this discussion because it seemed like there was a lot of activity here. What I am finding is a lot of people (me included) saying the same things that they themselves or someone else has said before. There may be some people new to the forum that have similar ideas to those that have already been expressed causing others to reply in the same fashion as they did when that idea was first expressed. I just can't help but wonder are we posting comments for the sake of posting.

 

[Segnbora]

There's far too much repetition, for sure. "I don't like the plot twist" is, by now, a terribly uninteresting comment from people who've been posting since before it happened. From a new poster, OK. From the regulars it's tiresome. "Trust the devs" isn't much better and equally tiresome. I'm not sure I have anything new to say; I'm engaging with one or two people because I think their insight regarding the shift is interesting and thoughtful even though I don't agree with them, and I think we've collaboratively teased out some nuances even though we don't necessarily agree on what they mean. If I took a vacation until the next update I seriously doubt the thread would change much. It'd just be shorter.

 

[preglovr12]

I'd like to thank you for a productive discussion, which is increasingly rare in this thread.

It's almost like remaining civil, not calling people names, and trying to understand the other side of the discussion leads to good discussions.

There's far too much repetition, for sure. "I don't like the plot twist" is, by now, a terribly uninteresting comment from people who've been posting since before it happened. From a new poster, OK. From the regulars it's tiresome. "Trust the devs" isn't much better and equally tiresome. I'm not sure I have anything new to say; I'm engaging with one or two people because I think their insight regarding the shift is interesting and thoughtful even though I don't agree with them, and I think we've collaboratively teased out some nuances even though we don't necessarily agree on what they mean. If I took a vacation until the next update I seriously doubt the thread would change much. It'd just be shorter.

Agreed. It's been nice but I feel like I've made my points and we're about to start going around and around.

By "home" do you mean the family home? Then I agree that she's not thinking about it at all while there. She's still having/in the aftermath of sex with DreamBrother. This is the realization of her dream. She'll say anything at this point as long as it doesn't break her fantasy. Nothing she says — even initiating a conversation about her past sexual partners — can break the power of that dream. That, at least, is 100% clear and obvious during that particular scene.

No, I meant the apartment, my bad. Me calling it "home" is likely a byproduct of just having seen them discuss it as more of a home than their childhood home.

If that's her thought process, then the very last thing she'd want to do would be to let him into her head.

-

But it's two completely different narratives. He has one — the one most players share — that she's been a victim and that she's in denial. She has another. They agree on two facts: she had sex with Klaus and the MC's going to be mad about it. Every other fact and emotion related to the event is something about which they disagree. Why would she open that door if she can avoid it? They're still having adorable sex and crosswords and such.

I don't really have anything more to say that I haven't already said about this. She offered him answers then shuts him down. I'm sure there's endless possibilities to why and I'm not saying they can't be valid ones either, but I feel like I shouldn't be sitting here searching for them with no guidance (more later). She could have dismissed any further conversation in the bed right after she told him, but she does the exact opposite and it doesn't seem like a response to get him off her back (certainly not literally ).

I interpreted their "world keeps turning" talk at the lake as a post-incest conversation but it very well could have been about Haley telling MC about her first time as well. If Haley wanted to correct anything from last night that seemed like the time. MC even makes a joke about how bad she was in the sack so I don't interpret any tension between them, but that all ends in the van.

I honestly don't think it matters; either you like the story or you don't. I think the endless attempt to assign blame is disingenuous (again, not your angle) and mostly irrelevant. But I'd push back on this.

It's an understanding thing. In universe weirdness from a rape victim is a lot different from two authors that can't agree and can't progress to write a good story. It doesn't "matter" but I'm a person that likes to extrapolate from information and I feel like I have no information.

Do you always consume spoilers the moment they become available? If so, then fine. If you don't, then I'd say that there are many people who would really like to experience fiction as it comes, not as they expect it to come.

I do actually but that's not really what I'm talking about. I don't want Viit to come here and explain his thought processes or anything, I just which MC would do some sort of mental narration or something. A lot of these games have some form of making sure the audience is on the same page as the story with internal dialogue, and this game doesn't for some reason. Sure it's a creative choice but it's a little agitating to me. I want to know more and I have no avenues to take. I feel like I'm being strung along rather than part of the story itself. As I've said, maybe that's the intention.

This update only had two choices in it as well, and both were about sex. I understand MC's not going to force the issue but it'd be nice to get a little more control and possibly an option to ask why she's going back on her offer to talk rather than just watching the time lapse that goes on for however long that is.

 

[ptahn]

'Nuff said.

 

[Segnbora]

Right, so I think you and I are done until there's more content. Here's my last response (to you) and I don't at all care if it's the last word.

She offered him answers then shuts him down. I'm sure there's endless possibilities to why and I'm not saying they can't be valid ones either, but I feel like I shouldn't be sitting here searching for them with no guidance (more later).

I feel like there has been. I feel like the residual unresolved trauma and the aftermath of her arguments with her mother could easily explain it. Are those the reasons? Mabye or maybe not, but those are significant enough revelations that I wouldn't expect them to be blown through in a short update that takes place in a day or two after the shocking twist. I've already agreed that the pacing's odd. I just don't find Haley's resistance inexplicable. I think she's lying when she says she wants to tell him everything. Obviously you don't.

It's an understanding thing. In universe weirdness from a rape victim is a lot different from two authors that can't agree and can't progress to write a good story. It doesn't "matter" but I'm a person that likes to extrapolate from information and I feel like I have no information.

I'd gently suggest that you probaby shouldn't extrapolate in an absolute vacuum of evidence and shouldn't be influenced by the prolific posters who are. Like or dislike the narrative on its own merits. I really have no idea who's responsible for this storyline. "Waterfall of incoherent text" doesn't either, though he certainly claims to. "Ragelord" doesn't either. And even if you did know, would it change your opinion of the story? Apparently not. Viit doesn't have any other games (or does he?), so you can't really base a strategy on him. Ptolemy does, but the argument that his games are similar is the weakest of weak sauce, so I (personally) dismiss that as well.

I just which MC would do some sort of mental narration or something.

Again, I think this is fundemental disconnect in how we view this story. Or maybe stories in general. In a sufficiently competent story (which: not Milfy Beach Hoiiday Orgy 2020) I view every character as having their own internal narrative. The MC has a narrative, and since he's our avatar we're inclined to agree with it. But it's not the only narrative, and in a good story the NPC's narratives are of equal value. Lisa has a story we mostly know through Sandra's eyes until the hotel incident, at which point we really kinda have to reevaluate Lisa's worldview. Adriana has a story we don't know at all until Victor and Haley and her husband and the MC force the issue. Sandra has her own story, and we still don't know why she's the way she is. Victor's story is being peeled back in layers; I doubt most people thought he was gay when he was introduced. The twins' mother has a story that's really difficult and mostly impenetrable right now. And Haley has a very, very complicated story. This is fertile ground (not, unless there's a pregnancy tag [he says nervously, viewing your username], literally), and it should be explored.

But even with the MC: why is he cool with Jack but ragey about Nick? Why is he fine with Diane and Alana sleeping around but annoyed with what his long-ago ex did well after they broke up?

Everyone has their own voices in their head. The best stories will prioritize all of them.

I feel like I'm being strung along rather than part of the story itself.

I'd love to see The Lord of the Rings as a Patreon-funded novel. "Whhhyyyyy didn't the Eagles just fly them from Rivendell to Mount Doom?" Yes, the fact that this has been a constant observation informs my joke.

Anwyay, I think we've explained ourselves to each other. Give a response a shot if you want. Cheers and let's revisit when the next rage-inducing update drops.

 

[preglovr12]

I just don't find Haley's resistance inexplicable. I think she's lying when she says she wants to tell him everything. Obviously you don't.

Maybe I'm too honest in real life to fundamentally understand, but why bother offering up that lie seemingly unprovoked in the first place? If anything did change her mind I hope we learn about it.

This is fertile ground (not, unless there's a pregnancy tag [he says nervously, viewing your username], literally), and it should be explored.

This is one of the few games on this site in which that would be a very bad thing. I'm not so single minded I want it everywhere and don't recognize where it's not needed (or would be a major detriment.)

But even with the MC: why is he cool with Jack but ragey about Nick? Why is he fine with Diane and Alana sleeping around but annoyed that is long-ago ex did well after they broke up?

Very good questions. It's like both Haley and MC are stuck at high school still. No wonder they're so fucked up, high school blows. I hope we don't have a reunion soon, thankfully they don't seem old enough.

 

[Segnbora]

Briefly: I don't think they're that mature. Has anything that's happened in the game thus far suggested otherwise?

 

[preglovr12]

Briefly: I don't think they're that mature. Has anything that's happened in the game thus far suggested otherwise?

Not really. Haley seemed to be fairly responsible early on, but due to them being siblings I highly doubt they'd act too mature around each other. Haley seems to be fairly mature up until the flirting with Richard thing, but she handles the work meeting well afterwards, besides the mention of cake.

 

[Segnbora]

She's fake-mature. She's the "domme" but it's all an act (and a pointed one, given the later narrative). It is with both of them, actually. They're faking adulthood and they're living together, which they don't yet realize is a way to avoid becoming adults.

It's essential to the narrative. Both of them are faking. Not unusual for early adults. But her mummery is vastly more consequential.

 

[apnea111]

She's fake-mature. She's the "domme" but it's all an act (and a pointed one, given the later narrative). It is with both of them, actually. They're faking adulthood and they're living together, which they don't yet realize is a way to avoid becoming adults.

It's essential to the narrative. Both of them are faking. Not unusual for early adults. But her mummery is vastly more consequential.

Well according to story they are both between early to mid 20s.

Everyone has a different definition for maturity but how story portrayed till 0.55 the MC.

He has the full trust of his parents.
He has his first job in which he Is succesfull, Already climbing the ladder.
Highly socially intelligent.
Having more than boss-employees relationship with both of his bosses.
Protecting his Sister at her work, either by helping her deal with the extremely high amount of work adriana Is giving her, consulting her avoid behaviors that are by default gonna cause her troubles, or by even confronting adriana.
By players option having sex with 5 fc (sex with the 6th Is imminent). Someone here could pull out the immaturity card. I find it Highly common a 25 old man having sidechicks when opportunity Is presented. Yet again its by players option and having sex with 5-6 fcs at the same time Is a high capability Index.
By players option having sex with 2 fc. The least polygamous he can be by developers option. Cheating on sandra in a game of inctestuous nature where Everyone knew from Start the he will have a sexual relationship with haley at Some point.
Well at Some points he doesnt picks up Well flirting signs and needs dating advice such As offering a flower, but thats a typical mans behavior even for 40 years old dudes. By default women can pick up flirting signs better than Men and can offer great dating advice.
Always by option portrayed able to give the right answer, ask the right question, or show the right attitude in every occasion until 0.55 when he became autistic (by dev option).

Everyone Can take the above points and project them on how halleys character in terms of maturity was portrayed till 0.55

Probably the attemp here Is to smoothen or to justify the character inconsistencies after 0.55.

Mcs character Is totally twisted at Last updates.
Stays silent cudling with his sister after the Mr Klaus revelation.
He Is Already angry and Already believes his Sister Is adressing him the way he adressed her rapist. He adresses the issue and gets the ignore treatment without speaking up. Haley hits him up again with the "goodnight daddy" line and he remains silent. He doesnt start a disqusion at the lake. Haley calls him daddy again at the lake he reacts but then again the disqussion Is closed in another autistic conversation. He tries to speak up at the Van, haley backtracks from her previous stance or promise, he gets cut of. Again an autistic dialoque leading to nowhere. After they return home again a sexual- daddy reference
"That Pussy belongs to you daddy"
He Goes "He... He... “

While Cant see the obvious that haley has a troubled relationship with their mom.
While making fun with the panties incident although could and still can (what common sense rule forbits dad bringing up the issue to his wife while they are not present) expose the couples relationship.

Going around exposing his Sister rape case to typical buddies or fuckbuddies when they both are in couples close everyday social circle. Regardless his Sister perspective and without her knowledge.

While continuing having sex with his Sister so fappers can be happy.

A Complete transformation of a Highly capable, with typical of or above his age maturity showing, always capable of bringing up the right arguement or displaying the right attitude, sexually initiative, Highly social intelligent character to a miserable autistic Beta human dildo. Fucking his troubled traumatized Sister while her rapist Is in the room. On both participants minds and souls.

And yes halley was faulted by storys narative from Start. And presented imature from start.
But also caring and empathetic towards her brother. And playfull and girly.
Then came the Last 2 updates. When her flaws where justified in such manner they were oveboosted.

And the loving attributes of her character either vanished (empathy) or transformed to behavior symptoms of a Highly troubled and traumatized dealing with longterm mental issues personallity.

Yes it Haleys story but from default players or spectators live the story from Mcs perspective.

Everyone Is expecting Mcs actions to set the way things will proceed from now. He wasnt autistic till 0.55. And he isnt doomed to remain autistic in coming update.

By presenting MC autistic prior to 0.55, not commenting his totally transformed or twisted character in 0.55 and 0.60, and finding realistic and making common sense continuing displaying that character in coming updates, two things are poorly attempted.

To poorly justify all the shit that was thrown Into the story in Last 2 updates. (Already seen that. Nothing New)

But most importantly to poorly prejustify the additional shit thats predicted to be thrown Into the story in coming updates (Well thats New. I guess Everyone now can see it coming)

 

[Ragnar]

I think they avoiding to discuss about the elephant in the room makes sense in 0.60.
-The MC reaction to the revelation in 0.55.
-Haley knows he is angry since D day.
-We know she probably fought with her mother in the past due to that same thing.
-Haley shutting down whenever he tries to bring up the subjet.
-MC trying to do something to solve the entire mess.

 

[vir_cotto]

And she keeps calling MC "Daddy". How sweet...

 

[apnea111]

I don't count this as failing the "no more discussion" standard because this is a very new, totally original discussion.

Refering to what?

To our disqussion? I am always open to disqusion when there are real arguments envolved.

Or to the newly introduced to the game autistic disqussions pattern?

If the second hell yeah you do.
Cause it fits your arguments and also your perspective of the storys u turn.

Well partially...

Cause autistic disqussions leading to nowhere even in the most easilly solvable matters, if New and original in story As you mentioned, lead to describing New and original aspects of characters in the story.

In a New introduced to story pattern Already mentioned. The outcome justifing the cause and not the opposite.

MC reveals his Sister rape case to typical buddies or fuckbuddies? So since the outcome Is that maybe the cause (being more than buddies or fuckbuddies) was Already in the story. Come on look closer Into the story. Cant you see it? No. Look closer under the New scope of their relationship. Sry still no.

MC Is portrayed As a imature Beta autistic human dildo? The same.No
Halley being raped.?The same. No
Sandra also being raped? The same. No.
Halley being unempathetic to her brother? The same. No.
Haley being so faulted that even the loving attributes of her character are symptoms of her traumatized troubled mental condition? The same. No.

In great story writing the cause defines the outcome. Even in plot twist when the outcome defines the cause, the cause Is there clear for Everyone to see and figure out that it made sense for the story to go that way.

Looking back prior to 0.55 noone could see the 2 main fc being raped by the end of 0.60. Looking after 0.60 back to story still noone gets how raping them was the logical and predescribed way to go.

Looking back prior to the end of 0.55 were Everyone anticipated the couple to evolve their relationship noone could predict that by the end of 0.60 MC would be fucking a rape victim while the victim Is adressing him the way he adressed her rapist.

The irony of things or better the parody of things Is that ptolemy was furious with the ntr arguements.
And those dudes managed by lack of skills or sensitivity to deal with all the shit that brought Into their story, by the end of 0.60 to have a content far more disturbing and twisted than ntr.

If they rape them all in next updates, still the outcome justifies the cause pattern could be applied. And still there would be someone claiming that the conditions preexisted.

In rl not many conditions are required to be raped. Waking alone in a dark alley or in an elevator Is enough. Plus a pervert being around.

So i quess also in adult gaming where perverts always being around, all it takes Is lack of skill or sensitivity. Gaining patrons also help.

So sry Mate. But again no.